Heavychevy

The 996TT that did the 7:56 on the 'Ring is the same that did the 1,14:6s in Hockenheim, it was wearing Pirelli P Zero 225/40-18 - 295/30-18 and had a maximum reading of 1.3G lateral grip which is very good. The GT3 RS is obviously on Sport Cup 19".

We can speculate all day without agreeing on a consensus but gaining 2 seconds on R compounds is IMO a very stretched target on such a small track, my bet would be for less than 1 second difference. The 997 chassis is just so superior.

Examples of other highly modified turbos that were built to be track special weapons:

996 Techart 620 (100-200 in 7.9s) with special body work, suspension, 220lbs lighter etc.. 1,12.3s

996 Gemballa GTR 600 full race setup (200lbs lighter): 1,11.6s Winner Tuner GP and also Nurburgring record holder back then (7:32s)

Manthey 996M700: AWD ~400lbs lighter than stock, extended body length and width, full race car Cup suspension, 300k Euros back then, Sport Cups..100-200kph in 6 seconds 1:09.2

It is difficult to make comparisons, but there is a clear indication of the superiority of the chassis and the potential of a 997GT3RS

 

at track Horsepower isn't only thing that matters - weight, mass centre height, ride height, weight distribution, torque, lenght of gears, stiffness of body, etc, etc...
so if there is 997TT with 1.2bar and cup-like suspension (like RT-12 ) it is still slower than 100hp weaker GT2

Sport-auto magazin 03/2008 tested 4 different 911 Turbo tuned cars -
Cargraphic 544hp/1550kg/0-200km 10.4/Hockenheim 1.10.3
Gemballa 600hp/1720kg/0-200km 11.9/Hockenheim 1.12.1
Speedart 600hp/1654kg/0-200km 10.8/Hockenheim 1.10.7
Techart 600hp/1717kg/0-200km 11.3/Hockehneim 1.12.6
and 2 other test
Ruf RT12 650hp/1573kg/0-200km 9.9/Hockehneim 1.10.2
Porsche 911 GT2 530hp/1440kg/0-200km 11.5/Hockenheim 1:09.7

As you see Cargraphic 544hp is almoust as fast than 100+hp powerfull RT12, and if you look 0-200km/h times, then GT2 is almoust slowest, but in track nobody can beat it's time

(Cargraphic has chip, exchaust, bilstein suspension, michelin pilot cup-s and Pagid brake pads)

 

The RS out the door is by far the better track car, the TT the better car period.

I have driven the RS and it is really missing torque, you have to really wind it out to feel the power and man is sounds great. the handling was good not unbelievable cause still felt like it was more like a street car than full race.

A car set up to my level car vs my friend in his RS (who is probably a better driver) we run neck and neck at Sebring, a large power track.

so best case senerio is if you MAX OUT the upgrades in our car you "may" keep up with the RS!!

the biggest thing to over come just like the Cup car is the weight.

and dont get me wrong the RS is badass, and constantly think about getting one!!

 

I was also surprised by the lack of torque. Felt like it really had to driven hard to make it go fast. Just from overall feel (nothing scientific), I find it hard to believe that it's faster than a stage 2 turbo in 95%+ of street driving environments.

That said, it's certainly an incredible car and also a little more "exotic" than the more common Turbo.

 

A cup suspension on a 997 TT or any TT would really be an AWD GT2, and yeah with mods on the 996 TT is should win.

But 600 hp with K16's? I think that's a strecth.

 

What is a cup suspension?

 

Suspension that comes on a GT3 Cup Car, and is very similar to a GT3 at least in dynamics.

 

Driving both cars on the track just demonstrate how good is the rs and how fast is the 996. The direction of the rs is so direct compare the 996 as well the power will never trick you as can be with a 996 TT highly modded. I guess that this is more a driver choice, but with some more experience, the gt3 RS will be faster including the right settings. I lapped 2 weeks ago on the Dubai Autodrome with my RS to test it and I was running 6 seconds slower than my turbo, but this doesn t mean anything, have to get the car with the right settings and get some more confidence. On the next trackday, will try my GT2 and will share my feelings about it, bcoz on the road, just drove couple of times, and it show how naturally ferocious is the car..anyway, just got my K24 upgraded in 18G from Todd....to be continued..

 

Jean thanks for pointing out how fast really the new RS is!
I have not been in Hockenheim myself so I don't know what kind of improvements they have done to the track during the recent years.
(Ring is a good example of a track that has become faster because new asphalt...)

Anyway I have some more data to add compared to Horst's 1.11.1 lap time in the 997 GT3 RS which is equipped with those sticky Pilot Cup tires:

Here from Horst's Sport Auto 01 2001: http://www.t-t-p.de/english/berichte.php
From that test you can see how relatively little modded 996 Turbos achieved lap times in the 1.12.x range with normal street tires! Add Pilot Cups to those cars and I'm sure the 997 GT3 RS would be nervous

An example is the Gemballa 996 Turbo they have:
- 520hp power package
- 18" Gemballa wheels with Yokohama AVS tires (poor grip)
- Brake package
- Suspension package
- Interior bits
- Lap time of 1.12.1 (1 second slower than GT3 RS)
- So this car with Pilot Cups would make the 997 GT3 RS driver a bit nervous!?

I love the 997 GT3 RS and look forward driving it at track...But still I have the same opinion as seen in my earlier posts in this thread: the old-school lazy and fat 996 Turbo can be fast too, even though not as enjoyable but similarly fast should not be a problem...

 

Yeah I dont think there is any track where MPSC are less than 1.5-2+ seconds faster than reg street tires. And I've done tracks that are shorter than that and tires/power/suspension has to be worth more than 2 seconds collectively. The only question is how many laps he did and if the cups were up to optimal temps.

You could get 2 seconds on a 30 second auto-x with tires alone. And these 50 second-1:15 or so tracks are barely longer than an auto-x.

 

Kaizu

Thanks for pointing to that page I had forgotten about all those articles.

Check out the price tag on that Gemballa I don't call that light mods. It is also the only car wearing wider tire sizes in the front... out of 5 expensive tuner cars, only 2 of them went below 1,13s and the Gemballa was the fastest..Still a good time, but see how far you need to go in mods and you are still 1 second slower than the stock GTR3S that has 10% worse weight/hp ratio. Maybe with a a couple of degrees more camber only on the stock RS and no modifications to suspension those times would be quite different. But that is all speculation.

The stock 996GT2 did it in 1,11.6 with stock street tires as well, so it is still ahead by over a second against most of those 996 TT tuner cars, but still slower than the GT3RS while it has 10% better power to weight ratio. Chassis.

Heavycheavy, Sport Cups vs street tires, we can speculate for ever really, until we see hard data on a similar test we won't know, but even one second advantage on that track would be optimistic IMO. Drivers like us (meaning not Pros) are not a reference because grippier tires forgive less than ideal lines and mistakes much more and alter our times in a greater way, than a pro driver like the Sport Auto test drivers.

Net net, you need substantial mods to your TT to be faster than a stock GT3rs, and not only engine. Personally though I would never buy one because I got addicted to the torque of turbos, but I do recognize its superiority.

That does not mean that the RS cannot be beaten by a TT of course it can. The fastest RS in our track is 6.5 seconds slower than my fastest lap time and with a better driver than me, but it is a high speed track. The closest 996TT is even further, until we see what FGaillard's Protomotive 996TT with Moton, weight savings and full uniball arms will do soon The car to beat will be his 997GT2 though

 

Jean, I see where you're coming from, but tire discrepancies are just as big with pro racers in street cars. I myself ask pit crew guys from some pros who post here and between here and rennlist there are several pro drivers that post regularly and attend regular track events combined with some VERY good amatuer and club racers I think we arent too far off with tire vs tire times. We arent getting them from Joe Blow in HPDE 1. And most times pro times may differ in the long run because they develope the car around the tires, but for just jumping in a car and going, I think there are many drivers that are as good or better than Horst (maybe not at the ring, but in general)

And generally even the more advanced DE guys get about the same because they dont know how to use the extra grip they have. But like I said, if sport auto didnt do a few laps then the MPSC may not have been up to temp and the tire advantage lessened somewhat, but that's almost the only way you'll only get less than 1 second difference even on a shorter track, grip levels make themselves known in cornering speeds, braking zones, exit speeds etc and they add up.

 

Heavychevy

You might be right, I haven't used street tires on the track for years.

Rennlist and 6 speed Pro drivers? I don't know of any (or maybe 1), there are many club racers like you and I , and we might have a lap record here and there, but Professional drivers are people like Bergmeister who don't really post on these forums ever.