Depreciation: Porsche vs. Ferrari
#46
10-20-2004, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by Tpup
With all due respect Paul, you don't know what you are talking about. I cannot speak from the "book knowledge" you can, I can speak from experience. I buy cars, drive them a couple of years, and sell them. Until the 996 series you could do that with a Porsche and unless you bought a wrong model, you would recoup a large percentage of your investment. That is no longer true.
I purchased a 01 Turbo, new and still have the car because it's not worth selling for the money I'd get for it. It cost north of $120K and is now worth south of $80K with 3,000 miles on it and in perfect condition (one stone chip on the nose).
I also purchased a new Ferrari 360 spider for sticker (you don't pay a "premium" when you buy a new Ferrari, FNA will not allow that, you do have to wait a while, so what). The car was worth $50K+ more than I paid for it the day I drove off the lot. I can drive that car for two years and unless I'm stupid and keep it when the new model is introduced, I can sell it for MSRP. As a side note, if you think that a guy who has several cars, and can stroke a check for $190K for a Ferrari, doesn't drive the car because they give a **** about service costs and deprecation, you need to put down the crack pipe.
As for your example using 01 model cars, according the Ferrari Market Letter (the best source for selling price imo), there are 12 01 360 Spider's for sale with an average mileage of 4,300 (more than my Turbo) and an average asking price of $201K which is 20K-30K above retail for that car in 01 (I don't remember the exact retail price in 01.)! The highest mileage car listed has 12,000 miles and is priced at $180K, also at or above retail at that time. Even euro 01 cars bring $165K.
An 01 Turbo's selling price, according to kbb, is $83K which everyone on this board says is WAY to high for an 01. If you put 30,000 miles on it, what's it worth, $60K, 50% of retail?
I spoke to my Ferrari contact and asked him the highest mileage 360 Spider he had seen for sale. There is a 71,000 mile 01 for sale right now for $130K or 74% of it's retail price.
You can play the "if you did this" game all you want. The facts are the facts, Porsches, mileage or not, cannot compare to Ferrari's in the area of depreciation.
Roy
With all due respect Paul, you don't know what you are talking about. I cannot speak from the "book knowledge" you can, I can speak from experience. I buy cars, drive them a couple of years, and sell them. Until the 996 series you could do that with a Porsche and unless you bought a wrong model, you would recoup a large percentage of your investment. That is no longer true.
I purchased a 01 Turbo, new and still have the car because it's not worth selling for the money I'd get for it. It cost north of $120K and is now worth south of $80K with 3,000 miles on it and in perfect condition (one stone chip on the nose).
I also purchased a new Ferrari 360 spider for sticker (you don't pay a "premium" when you buy a new Ferrari, FNA will not allow that, you do have to wait a while, so what). The car was worth $50K+ more than I paid for it the day I drove off the lot. I can drive that car for two years and unless I'm stupid and keep it when the new model is introduced, I can sell it for MSRP. As a side note, if you think that a guy who has several cars, and can stroke a check for $190K for a Ferrari, doesn't drive the car because they give a **** about service costs and deprecation, you need to put down the crack pipe.
As for your example using 01 model cars, according the Ferrari Market Letter (the best source for selling price imo), there are 12 01 360 Spider's for sale with an average mileage of 4,300 (more than my Turbo) and an average asking price of $201K which is 20K-30K above retail for that car in 01 (I don't remember the exact retail price in 01.)! The highest mileage car listed has 12,000 miles and is priced at $180K, also at or above retail at that time. Even euro 01 cars bring $165K.
An 01 Turbo's selling price, according to kbb, is $83K which everyone on this board says is WAY to high for an 01. If you put 30,000 miles on it, what's it worth, $60K, 50% of retail?
I spoke to my Ferrari contact and asked him the highest mileage 360 Spider he had seen for sale. There is a 71,000 mile 01 for sale right now for $130K or 74% of it's retail price.
You can play the "if you did this" game all you want. The facts are the facts, Porsches, mileage or not, cannot compare to Ferrari's in the area of depreciation.
Roy
what's the depreciation look like on the 550/575? 456?? etc.
01 360 Spider with 71,000 miles at 130k? I would guess that is not going to sell very quickly
or, the only way is for people who will drive 100 miles a year and assume not much will go wrong in 100 miles."An 01 Turbo's selling price, according to kbb, is $83K which everyone on this board says is WAY to high for an 01. If you put 30,000 miles on it, what's it worth, $60K, 50% of retail? " - 60k for a 30k mile Turbo -- highly doubt that. 30k miles on a Turbo is nothing, most people are comfortable at that kind of mileage and though there will be a discount, it won't be that great. Plus 83k for a 01 is not WAY too high.
#47
10-20-2004, 01:58 AM
Yup. Same rebuttal I would've made, scott.
The initial part of the curve favors ferrari because of simple extremely-limited-supply-n-demand. However, the demand and the willingless to pay top dollars are for pristine examples of the car, not any old f-car. Let's face it, an f-car is a work of art to be preserved. It's been like that for decades. Not so with porsches.
The initial part of the curve favors ferrari because of simple extremely-limited-supply-n-demand. However, the demand and the willingless to pay top dollars are for pristine examples of the car, not any old f-car. Let's face it, an f-car is a work of art to be preserved. It's been like that for decades. Not so with porsches.
#48
10-20-2004, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by Tpup
With all due respect Paul, you don't know what you are talking about. I spoke to my Ferrari contact and asked him the highest mileage 360 Spider he had seen for sale. There is a 71,000 mile 01 for sale right now for $130K or 74% of it's retail price.
You can play the "if you did this" game all you want. The facts are the facts, Porsches, mileage or not, cannot compare to Ferrari's in the area of depreciation.
Roy
With all due respect Paul, you don't know what you are talking about. I spoke to my Ferrari contact and asked him the highest mileage 360 Spider he had seen for sale. There is a 71,000 mile 01 for sale right now for $130K or 74% of it's retail price.
You can play the "if you did this" game all you want. The facts are the facts, Porsches, mileage or not, cannot compare to Ferrari's in the area of depreciation.
Roy
And Roy, guess what. I buy cars too, (I own an 01 996 Turbo bought new in 01 for south of $120,000 and no it wasn't a base car--Tiptronic, $1500 leather dash package, crests in the seat back, aluminum faced guages, cd changer). I do drive them and I don't consider 3000 miles driving a car. Good lord, I had 10,000 miles before the Turbo was 6 months old. You should have driven yours instead of wringing your hands over depeciation. But to each his own.
All I know is this. You can get a 15,000 miles per year closed end lease on a new Porsche. Can you do that on a Ferrari? What does that tell you?
Leasing companies and banks don't want to even guess at residuals on Ferrari's that are driven those kind of miles. Why?
Because the average Ferrari isn't driven anywhere close to those miles and that makes setting residuals a crap shoot that even a riverboat gambler doesn't want.
Nothing personal friend, and with all due respect, if you're saying Ferrari's aren't extremely mileage sensitive then I want to own a Ferrari in your world. Doesn't appear to be the case in mine.
Last edited by Paul S-in TX; 10-20-2004 at 02:09 AM.
#49
10-20-2004, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by alamein
you are primarily quoting pricing for Spiders which are already marked up huge in the secondary market from the numerous people who don't want to wait in line, find out what their hit is from purchase price, not the few that happened to have the patience to wait on the list for years. Similar story with the Ford GT too. Would have been the same with the Carrera GT if they limited production to 399 models too i would guess.
what's the depreciation look like on the 550/575? 456?? etc.
01 360 Spider with 71,000 miles at 130k? I would guess that is not going to sell very quickly or, the only way is for people who will drive 100 miles a year and assume not much will go wrong in 100 miles.
"An 01 Turbo's selling price, according to kbb, is $83K which everyone on this board says is WAY to high for an 01. If you put 30,000 miles on it, what's it worth, $60K, 50% of retail? " - 60k for a 30k mile Turbo -- highly doubt that. 30k miles on a Turbo is nothing, most people are comfortable at that kind of mileage and though there will be a discount, it won't be that great. Plus 83k for a 01 is not WAY too high.
you are primarily quoting pricing for Spiders which are already marked up huge in the secondary market from the numerous people who don't want to wait in line, find out what their hit is from purchase price, not the few that happened to have the patience to wait on the list for years. Similar story with the Ford GT too. Would have been the same with the Carrera GT if they limited production to 399 models too i would guess.
what's the depreciation look like on the 550/575? 456?? etc.
01 360 Spider with 71,000 miles at 130k? I would guess that is not going to sell very quickly
or, the only way is for people who will drive 100 miles a year and assume not much will go wrong in 100 miles."An 01 Turbo's selling price, according to kbb, is $83K which everyone on this board says is WAY to high for an 01. If you put 30,000 miles on it, what's it worth, $60K, 50% of retail? " - 60k for a 30k mile Turbo -- highly doubt that. 30k miles on a Turbo is nothing, most people are comfortable at that kind of mileage and though there will be a discount, it won't be that great. Plus 83k for a 01 is not WAY too high.
#50
10-20-2004, 02:26 AM
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Originally posted by ben, lj
I'm not really sure why this all got started again unless it's just that time of the month where 360s and TTs have to be pissing match compared
I'm not really sure why this all got started again unless it's just that time of the month where 360s and TTs have to be pissing match compared
Yep, every good <insert car here> board has to have it's monthly or bi-monthly thread explaing "why our <insert car here> is better than the competition."
#51
10-20-2004, 02:31 AM
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Originally posted by collin996tt
As I said:
A porsche is a car worth driving. A ferrari is a prize that's worth owning.
A porsche is the right car for people that loves to drive as much as they can.
As I said:
A porsche is a car worth driving. A ferrari is a prize that's worth owning.
A porsche is the right car for people that loves to drive as much as they can.
even though there is no way in the world i can afford a ferrari
that's why i have close to 30,000 mile son my 996, very rarily will u see a ferrari with a mileage of 30,000 miles...
#52
10-20-2004, 02:37 AM
just imagine the two value/time graphs we are looking at here. What we are debating is a difference in convexity. The Ferrari graph will be shaped like an upside down bowl. It takes little to no depreciation at first. It may even appreciate at first if you are patient enough to wait for 2 years to get it at MSRP. Then, once the miles get high and/or a new model is on the horizon, the curve steepens.
The porsche takes its medicine quickly. The beginning of the curve is steep but it flattens out. Eventually the cars come out around the same in 4-5 years. If the milage on both is low then the ferrari will have depreciated less, if milage is high then the porsche will have. Over 5 or so years it is too hard to tell because it depends on how much of a "classic" the particular model has become. For example, the 993 Turbo has depreciated much less than the 348.
The porsche takes its medicine quickly. The beginning of the curve is steep but it flattens out. Eventually the cars come out around the same in 4-5 years. If the milage on both is low then the ferrari will have depreciated less, if milage is high then the porsche will have. Over 5 or so years it is too hard to tell because it depends on how much of a "classic" the particular model has become. For example, the 993 Turbo has depreciated much less than the 348.
#53
10-20-2004, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by ben, lj
You sure the heck couldn't do that with a TT. Once you drive it off the lot, you can say goodbye to at least $10k. 01s with low miles are $80k cars which is a $40k hit or 33%. An 01 360 with similar miles is still a heck of a lot closer to MSRP than 33% off.
No ono can argue with a straight face that 360s are anywhere near the same $ out of pocket to service as TTs, but the difference is less than $15k. The fun factor and depreciation difference alone more than makes up for this. FWIW, insurance is a lot higher on 360s than TTs.
All this said, I have no idea why the two cars are compared. One is a heavy AWD GT sports car and the other is a lightweight adrelene rush. The TT is probably more practical but it's had to say with a straight face it's remotely as fun.
BTW, the market outside the US is DRASTICALLY different for 360s. You won't find $114k examples with 10k miles here.
You sure the heck couldn't do that with a TT. Once you drive it off the lot, you can say goodbye to at least $10k. 01s with low miles are $80k cars which is a $40k hit or 33%. An 01 360 with similar miles is still a heck of a lot closer to MSRP than 33% off.
No ono can argue with a straight face that 360s are anywhere near the same $ out of pocket to service as TTs, but the difference is less than $15k. The fun factor and depreciation difference alone more than makes up for this. FWIW, insurance is a lot higher on 360s than TTs.
All this said, I have no idea why the two cars are compared. One is a heavy AWD GT sports car and the other is a lightweight adrelene rush. The TT is probably more practical but it's had to say with a straight face it's remotely as fun.
BTW, the market outside the US is DRASTICALLY different for 360s. You won't find $114k examples with 10k miles here.
There's a track here in Texas, called Texas World Speedway. Scott from Houston will know what I mean.
I dang sure have fun passing 360's coming out of the corners (or if I cared to, drag racing them down the front straight, too but that's a no brainer).
I suspect the 360's being passed by my "heavy AWD GT sports car" that's been tail grabbing their **** all the way through turns 1-2 aren't driving as well as I, and certainly aren't having as much fun as I do.
I don't find the need to compare Ferraris and Porsches--just wanting to get a handle on the depeciation "mythe" I hear repeated like dogma, usually by the few hundred miles per year driven Ferrari 'club'.
#54
10-20-2004, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by Scott in H-town
My vote for quote of the day. LOL
Wow... you've gone a whole 1,700 miles without a single problem!? Amazing. [/sarcasm]
That right there explains it all to me. I drive my car about 10,000 miles/year. If I did that in any F-car, it would cost me a fortune in depreciation on either car, but more on the F-car.
I absolutely love driving nice cars. There's just no way I could let a nice car like a 360 or 355 sit so much in my garage. I'd want to drive it way too much. I'm the same way with my Turbo. I literally am glad to have to drive places in it.
My vote for quote of the day. LOL
Wow... you've gone a whole 1,700 miles without a single problem!? Amazing. [/sarcasm]
That right there explains it all to me. I drive my car about 10,000 miles/year. If I did that in any F-car, it would cost me a fortune in depreciation on either car, but more on the F-car.
I absolutely love driving nice cars. There's just no way I could let a nice car like a 360 or 355 sit so much in my garage. I'd want to drive it way too much. I'm the same way with my Turbo. I literally am glad to have to drive places in it.
Thanks for the vote. If I didn't know you better, I'd think you'd gone to work for the Dems since you took my quote entirely out of context. Who said I don't drive my car? If you read my post, I said I drive my 360 AS MUCH as the TT Cab or any P-Car I've had. I repeat, it's NOT my daily driver so to imply that I let my car sit around because I don't want to accumulate miles is crap. The 1,700 miles is since I got the car 3 months ago. Annualize the mileage and that's almost 7,000. The point I was making is about the B.S. "Ferraris are crap" that's keeps coming up. I had more problems with my TT Cab (specifically with the top) and my Cayenne TT (talk about a POS) during the first 1,700 miles than I've had with the 360.
Eric
#55
10-20-2004, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by Scott in H-town
Tpup, the only falacy in your statement is the failure to take into account more mileage. Using your car as an example... for one... you could get more than 80k for it. These boards are clueless and exagerate, but in reality, that low mileage of a car, you could. If you don't believe me, let me sell it and keep the difference above 80k.
The other thing is this... if your car had 12,000 miles on it, it would be worth close to the same thing. Maybe just a couple of thousand dollars difference.
Find a 12,000 mile 360 and tell me what the depreciation is.
Your comparison only takes into account the beginning of the depreciation curve which Ferrari, of course, is better at holding value. But over longer mileage terms, that's not so.
Tpup, the only falacy in your statement is the failure to take into account more mileage. Using your car as an example... for one... you could get more than 80k for it. These boards are clueless and exagerate, but in reality, that low mileage of a car, you could. If you don't believe me, let me sell it and keep the difference above 80k.
The other thing is this... if your car had 12,000 miles on it, it would be worth close to the same thing. Maybe just a couple of thousand dollars difference.
Find a 12,000 mile 360 and tell me what the depreciation is.
Your comparison only takes into account the beginning of the depreciation curve which Ferrari, of course, is better at holding value. But over longer mileage terms, that's not so.
I agree with some of the info in your post and value your commentary on the board in the past(as opposed to some others
. FYI, the only 01 360 spider close to your example has 10,400 miles on it and it's asking price is $180K, a little over sticker.I don't want to beat a dead horse here. I think we agree on many of the issues at a concept level, but, I think if you were to do an overall % of MSRP study on the two marques, Ferrari would win.
I just allowed myself to get wound up over stupid statements like "owners don't drive them because they are concerned with deprecation" and "you pay a premium for a new car"...
Thanks
Roy
#56
10-20-2004, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by Paul S-in TX
If I could drive a Ferrari 10,000 miles per year and only lose $10,000, I'm might take one if I could get past the negative connotations. I can get away with driving my Turbo pretty much everywhere without offending those I work around. My Boss and clients I have to interact with daily won't take too well to doing the same in a Ferrari. That's just the facts.
If I could drive a Ferrari 10,000 miles per year and only lose $10,000, I'm might take one if I could get past the negative connotations. I can get away with driving my Turbo pretty much everywhere without offending those I work around. My Boss and clients I have to interact with daily won't take too well to doing the same in a Ferrari. That's just the facts.
#57
10-20-2004, 03:28 AM
Originally posted by collin996tt
You just proved my point. If you can afford to own any prize fighter or trophy car, a ferrari is a great choice for people with ADD or the need to own the latest and greatest.
As I said:
A porsche is a car worth driving. A ferrari is a prize that's worth owning.
A porsche is the right car for people that loves to drive as much as they can.
You just proved my point. If you can afford to own any prize fighter or trophy car, a ferrari is a great choice for people with ADD or the need to own the latest and greatest.
As I said:
A porsche is a car worth driving. A ferrari is a prize that's worth owning.
A porsche is the right car for people that loves to drive as much as they can.
#58
10-20-2004, 03:31 AM
Eric -- Don't waste your time -- the 360 lineup needs no defense. It's a very reliable car, with better resale than most cars, if not all, (Porsche w/o a doubt is bad these days) and the maintenance costs/mileage intervals are quite reasonable given the no compromise race technology the 360 contains. However, the real reason to own a 360 (or the new 430, I'm sure) is because of the way it DRIVES. Most (if not all) of the people with these strong anti-F-car opinions have never driven one. Drive one and you'll understand what it's all about -- depreciation doesn't even enter the equation. 
I still love my Porsches, but none of them offer as much fun/excitement when driving than my 360CS. A CGT does come close.
I still love my Porsches, but none of them offer as much fun/excitement when driving than my 360CS. A CGT does come close.
#59
10-20-2004, 03:33 AM
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Originally posted by ESK
Scott,
Thanks for the vote. If I didn't know you better, I'd think you'd gone to work for the Dems since you took my quote entirely out of context. Who said I don't drive my car? If you read my post, I said I drive my 360 AS MUCH as the TT Cab or any P-Car I've had. I repeat, it's NOT my daily driver so to imply that I let my car sit around because I don't want to accumulate miles is crap. The 1,700 miles is since I got the car 3 months ago. Annualize the mileage and that's almost 7,000. The point I was making is about the B.S. "Ferraris are crap" that's keeps coming up. I had more problems with my TT Cab (specifically with the top) and my Cayenne TT (talk about a POS) during the first 1,700 miles than I've had with the 360.
Eric
Scott,
Thanks for the vote. If I didn't know you better, I'd think you'd gone to work for the Dems since you took my quote entirely out of context. Who said I don't drive my car? If you read my post, I said I drive my 360 AS MUCH as the TT Cab or any P-Car I've had. I repeat, it's NOT my daily driver so to imply that I let my car sit around because I don't want to accumulate miles is crap. The 1,700 miles is since I got the car 3 months ago. Annualize the mileage and that's almost 7,000. The point I was making is about the B.S. "Ferraris are crap" that's keeps coming up. I had more problems with my TT Cab (specifically with the top) and my Cayenne TT (talk about a POS) during the first 1,700 miles than I've had with the 360.
Eric
Yeah, I didn't mean to take it out of context. And I hear what you're saying. I think for you, since it's not your daily, it's a great thing.
My Turbo is my daily only because I choose it to be over my Explorer. We sold the BMW b/c it was never driven. I work out of the home office and limo to the airport most of the week, so I don't put a lot of mileage on my cars either. I do put around 8 - 10k per year just because I like driving on nice days and weekends so much.
I don't think Ferraris are crap. I don't even think they're likely to break down any more-so than a Porsche. I was just commenting on the mileage thing. And your quote came off as sounding funny to me... nothing more.
As for my decision personally, I considered very seriously a 355 Spider, 355, and to some degree a 360 coupe along with the TT I have now. I decided on the TT because:
1) Given my mileage/year, I estimated the TCO (ttl cost of ownership) to be higher in the Fcars. This was mileage depreciation, regular depreciation, maint., and everything. Of course this was an estimate, but that's why I'm in this discussion
2) I track my car. All of them are great for this, but the TT is the better performer. Shallow as I may be, this mattered to me.
3) Appearances: If clients saw it, I'd be dead in the water with them. In my business, it would not be good.
I also HATE attention for my car in general. TT's get very little, which I like. Any Fcar, gets a ton because they're so damned beautiful.
4) I have a back seat and a 13 month old.
I like both cars a lot. Ferraris are definitely more fun and involving, but the other factors for Porsche beat it out for me.
#60
10-20-2004, 03:39 AM
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Originally posted by Tpup
Scott,
I agree with some of the info in your post and value your commentary on the board in the past(as opposed to some others. FYI, the only 01 360 spider close to your example has 10,400 miles on it and it's asking price is $180K, a little over sticker.
I don't want to beat a dead horse here. I think we agree on many of the issues at a concept level, but, I think if you were to do an overall % of MSRP study on the two marques, Ferrari would win.
I just allowed myself to get wound up over stupid statements like "owners don't drive them because they are concerned with deprecation" and "you pay a premium for a new car"...
Thanks
Roy
Scott,
I agree with some of the info in your post and value your commentary on the board in the past(as opposed to some others
. FYI, the only 01 360 spider close to your example has 10,400 miles on it and it's asking price is $180K, a little over sticker.I don't want to beat a dead horse here. I think we agree on many of the issues at a concept level, but, I think if you were to do an overall % of MSRP study on the two marques, Ferrari would win.
I just allowed myself to get wound up over stupid statements like "owners don't drive them because they are concerned with deprecation" and "you pay a premium for a new car"...
Thanks
Roy
What is sticker for a 360 Spider? (I seriously don't know) I thought it was more than 180k?
The spider is not too fair of a comparison though. It's more the extreme in values vs. the coupes.
Overall - the 2 marques are probably close. Porsche has the Boxster to pull it so far down, it would probably lose, but if you stuck to just 911's, I don't know. It's hard to say b/c of cars like the 550 and the 456 in Ferraris line up.
In general, I wish I could justify having both. I could afford it, but even in my deranged (sp?) car-mind (I freakin' love cars), I can't justify it. I can justify having one over-the-top performance car at a time. Who knows? Maybe my next will be that 355 Spider. That's still my favorite that the pasta boys have ever built.