I'm guessing you know that tunes don't ADD timing, but you're assuming you're up against the knock sensor now and you figure the benefit to be NO retard after the install? Any Methanol content will raise your A/F ratio, no? Just trying to understand the benefit you are looking for with all this work you are doing.

 

Simply, in cylinder cooling and a cleaner burning engine. I am not looking for extra performance (High Meth Ratios). In my experience Turbo cars simply run better with Water injection. I am running 19 psi or so, with that comes temp. Just trying to counteract it, that is all. Plus it is fun to do.

 

I'm not sure I agree with your assumptions here. Tunes for high octane most certainly ARE likely to add timing and any tune that "leans" on a knock sensor is one that's too aggressive IMO. I would bet that his 100 octane tune has more timing than his low octane tune if for no other reason than higher octane gas generally burns SLOWER than low octane - it's less explosive.

As for raising A/F... if by raising you mean going richer then yeah it will. I've seen A/F meters go full rich when methanol is added - and engines LIKE it too! A methanol tune will be much richer than a a gasoline tune anyway and motors seem to like it. Adding methanol on top of a gas tune without pulling gas and using the methanol for fuel will wind up rich but unless you really flood it the motor won't bog in my experience -even with some water in the mix. Honestly I liked to run only a little water and I was also careful to add Klotz lube to the alcohol even if the meth came with some top end lube already in it.

An interesting side note - methanol as a fuel is oxygen bearing. Obviously it's not nitrous but it does carry some oxygen with it - this is why you find it at the local pump mixed in gas. Sadly it doesn't have nearly the same energy in it as gas so you have to run a ton more of it. <shrug> This is why when you run the alcohol\gas mix you get worse gas mileage too and why flex fuel cars get crappy mileage.... I wish I could get E85 at the pumps here though!

 

These are not my assumptions. I was asking if they were HIS assumptions. I understand what meth does and why it does it. In his original post he said: (and I quote No, I have a 93 & 100 octane tune already, but I am really only using the system for in-cylinder cooling. I am very happy with my 93 octane map and will most likely stick to it. I am not comfortable relying on meth for the extra octane. Basically as you add meth the octane increases proportionationally, depending on the quality of the meth mix. So normally a tune will compensate for this increase in octane with timing etc. adjustments. I have pretty much decided on a 64/40 H2O/Meth ratio but knowing me I will not measure that with any accuracy, so 70/30 60/40 is close enough.

To me, this means the tune would ADD timing when he added race fuel or Meth. I was merely pointing out that that will not happen rather he will not retard as much.

 

Ah okay, I follow you.

IF his tune was leaning on the knock sensor this would allow it to run less retarded. If his tune wasn't leaning on the knock sensor then the added octane shouldn't change timing other than what it might achieve with a chance in IAT - also a benefit.

IF he was tuned for running with methanol then my assumption would be added timing which would lead to leaning on the knock sensor if he didn't run enough methanol - something it sounds like he's not comfortable with since a poor mixture or system failure would be "bad"....

 

Exactly, sorry I didn't "wordify" it correctly. There seems to be a lot of misinformation on this forum about how our DME, or ANY DME/ECU for that matter, ADDS timing. People need to understand that timing values are set in the tune and the knock sensor REMOVES some, if necessary, to help "prevent" (for lack of a better word) detonation.

PS -SWR: I guess I was asking if this was what you thought?

 

Heh, yah.. I've tuned a standalone or two with knock sensing and W/B so I understood that inside and out and OEM's aren't too far off from that in how they react to various inputs. I tuned MAP sensed cars though not MAF so there's SOME differences but I do understand how some of that works as well - especially if you're not tweaking the ECU transfer functions and are instead mucking with sensors (I'm looking at the Ford guys here). <shrug> FWIW, it kills me when folks try to say that it's okay to run low octane fuel in cars and that it won't hurt it when in fact the car ends up "leaning" on the knock sensor. Knock sensors sense KNOCK which means it has to have already happened to be sensed. Most OEM ECUs, and I don't know about the Porsche DME for sure, will continue to try and add the ignition timing back in until the sensors pull it again. And again.... Just not a good idea!

 

Honestly, My Maps are standard 93 & 100 Octane Fuel Maps with no comp for water and/or methanol. I do not really know what the ACTUAL differences are, other that one is designed for higher octane applications. I just know that based on some of my own experience the timing would probably be different between them. (I did not say Advanced or Retarded, and I am sure timing is not the only consideration either, I said "So normally a tune will compensate for this increase in octane with timing etc. adjustments" Not Advanced timing adjustments.) I think some assumptions incorrect were made here.

All this seems moot to me. This Post is a how to, based on Stock or standard X50 flashed programming. I was just posting my preferred HFS-6 Mapping and asking for input on maps others have used. (HFS-6 adjustment maps that is)

I will delete the part of the post on Octane ratings etc. to keep things on track. I hope others will Consider deleting their diverted posts also.

Once again, my ONLY concern is in-cylinder cooling and the added ceaning effects. I am personally not interested in Meth as a performance enhancement in this application.

 

Very nice post! Very informative!

Where did you decide to mount the nozzle? I just skimmed over this so please excuse me if I missed it.

Thanks,
Mitch

 

Mitch: Thanks, you helped with the initial wiring route ....

Ideally, one should be mounting them as close to the intercooler exit as possible. Ideally in the output port of the intercooler itself. However, because the stock car has plastic endcaps the intercooler was out. I worked with a fabricator to get custom boost tubes with jet ports built in. These will be available commercially after I am complete. (Not from me but from the fabricator). I am going to place them 24 inches from the throttle body in the boost pipes as close to the intercooler as I can get them.

Of course I will share with all when i am done.

SWR

 

In my experience with WI I have tried a lot of different mounting positions. I know the general theory behind mounting them near the intercoolers so it allows for the most heat dissipation based on distance, but I have been doing them about 6 inches from the throttle body on a lot of cars and have had great success.

We find that more water atomizing inside of the intake manifold helps to dissipate heat better for the actual charged air. I would say though that this method is more for making power rather for just cooling.

I think either way it will work great just something to think about.

Good Luck!

Mitch M

 

You are correct, there are lots of schools of thought on this. My history and experience is with the latter. You could well be on to something if you are injecting meth into the throttle body, for making power.

In the past I have tried both theories (But never with hi concentrations of Meth, only about 70/20 or 70/30 max. And at least on the Lotus there was no measurable difference. But again, the lotus had no inter coolers! Water was ONLY injected for cooling the charge air. This is my first Porsche TT install so I respect your opinions.

Thanks

 

Would it be possible to do a direct port system? This would assure equal distribution to all cylinders. I have my motor out right now and have been thinking about it?

 

wow, nice install and very detailed "how to". thanks!

 

Final Install Update!

Well Today we actually finished the ERL Aquamist HFS-6 Installation. The FINAL Install update is on my website. (Hopefully this will be the case, unless I find I missed something or someone notices some spelling errors etc. I will update it once more after road testing)

For those who stayed with this thread so far, thank you and I hope it helps you.

I am really a fan of Water Injection! The benefits to the engine over time, IMHO are alone worth the installation effort and cost. For those who intend on using the system to add significantly more power, that is a bonus.

We tried to keep the installation a Stealthy as possible and tried not to use valuable trunk space for the motor and Reservoir. Even looking in the engine bay, it would take a trained eye to notice the installation.

What We added Today:

• Custom Boost Tube Coupler & Jet Adapter Installation
• Boost Hose re-installation
• Left & Right Jet Installation
• Fluid Feed from FCM to Jet Plumbing
• General engine bay photos

Thanks again for those who added their opinions, assistance & comments.

Just type this line into your Browser to see the final document.
"impconcepts.com/porscheturbowaterinstallation.htm"

Now I can get on and install the new Dual Snorkel Air intakes that were so kindly provided to us per our custom (modified) specifications by VIVID Racing!

I will be doing a How to for that also.

Once that is complete I will be running some tests in this baby, and will do one more update to the HFS-6 Install document.

Happy New Year!

Ian