Ran Dark Blue Pagid Sport pads at Buttonwillow on Friday and they just weren't cutting it. They were getting so hot and the pedal feel was horrible. Very grindy and not as much stopping power as I'd like.

Maybe I should run the RS4-4 (orange) pad for the track only and leave the Blues for the street?

There's also this option that I learned about in an email from Charlie at Wrightwood Racing. He told me about a larger rotor kit for the Turbo:

"We also make a 352 x 34 disc & hat arrangement for your 996 Turbo that utilizes a high quality AP disc with an aluminum hat. Your original 4 piston caliper is used with spacers & longer bolts. Your stock disc size is 330 x 33. This set-up seems to work very well & gives much longer disc life as well as better braking."

I believe this front rotor kit costs about $1500 where as replacement OEM rotors cost about $400 each. So $1500 versus $800. Has anyone tried this kit or can you give me advice on pads?

 

The problem stems from the lack of brake cooling. I'd tackle it from that front first and then move on to changing the brake system. I had better results running the cup brake cooling ducts upfront and the GT2 ducts in the back. I was going to add the cargraphic cooling kit in conjunction with the ducts that I have and change the brake pads but I sold the car.
The Pagid blues might not suit your style of driving so you might benifit from a change to a more aggresive pad. I'd leave it to colorchange to elaborate more on these things since he's our resident brake expert.

 

Great advice. Things were definitely getting hot. In fact, I went to check my pressures and the valve caps were so hot that I had to put gloves on to remove them.

Any info on the cooling kits, like part numbers, web sites, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

 

Cargraphic as well as carnewal have their banners on the right, just click and browse away. As for the factory brake ducts, I don't have the part numbers on me, but I'm sure someone would be able to post them for you.

 

Thanks '03.

I agree with '03. Always go after cooling first. I have a front nose ram air from my TA nose, GT-3 front scoops, and GT-2 scoops rear. You can do pads and fluid at the same time. If you are really driving hard, try pagid black pads and Castril SRF fluid. If you do this, you are still likely to have trouble if you drive really hard or on really demanding tracks.

I also upgraded my brakes to StopTech. Others (EVO etc.) also seam quite good. Try cooling, pads, and brake fluid first, then go after hardware.

 

OK....thanks.

I just bled the brakes and used ATE Super Blue before this trackday.

I'll look into cooling them off with the ducts first.

 

Cargraphic Brake Cooling Kit - 996TT
Part# BD5900T

Brake cooling kit with all fitting parts

 

On the "pedal feel was horrible".......what are we talking here......pad fade or...pedal fade?........of course very dif.

Did the pedal feel spongy and did it's travel increase noticably?
or........ did you just stop getting good bite....ie loss of friction pad/rotor.........that's pad fade (the pad being asked to run at a temp exceeding it's capability).

You say you were running 'Dark blue' Pagids......I'm not familiar with these yet (new aren't they?)......do you know what their Constant Working & Max Temps are?

I'm still running Orange after 4th track season this car.......I know we all drive dif but my only issue w/Orange is I go through rotors.......BTW Orange max-out at 700' and have a wkg range of 350-650'

 

From the compund guide below, I used the 'Sport (RS 4-2-1) pad (which happens to be blue, but its not the RS 4-2 Blue.

As far as the pedal feel, I should have been more descriptive. The pedal was not going to the floor or getting spongy. It was more of a grinding and loss of bite feeling. So I guess the pad was fading.


"Pagid Brake Pad Compounds
Sport (RS 4-2-1)
A high performance compound with low fading characteristics and high cold friction. The most comfortable medium friction sport compound. Rotor friendly and OE on various Ferrari, Lamborgini, Bugatti, and Corvette (Callaway) models. Suitable for street and light track use.
RS 4-2 Blue
A medium friction racing compound with good cold friction and fading resistance up to 500 degrees C (930 degrees F). the 4-2 compound has an acceptable rotor wear rate and a very good modulation (adjustment).
RS 4-4 Orange
This compound has a very good fade resistance and a higher average friction value than the RS 4-2. It is rotor friendly with a predictable, non-aggressive friction behavior (stable torque). Fading resistance up to 560 degrees C (1,050 degrees F). It is a very good rear compound for Touring car applications in combination with RS 14 front pads. It’s main application is Porsche 911 and 944 racing. It is used for either sprint or endurance racing; also for front and rear axles.
RS 14 Black
This is a medium high friction value ceramic type compound with very good modulation, high fade resistance, low heat conductivity, and a good wear rate up to a temperature of 650 degrees C (1,200 degrees F). This pad is kind to rotors, with visible grooving, but with a limitation of hairline cracks.
RS 15 Grey
Very high torque compound. It combines a 20% higher friction value than the RS 14 with a slightly increased pad wear rate. Needs finesse to avoid over braking the car. Good release characteristic and a quick bedding in procedure. Although the RS 15 has a very good modulation, it might have an excessive bite for some applications. This pad works best when used with slicks. DOT race tires do not have enough grip to avoid locking the wheels and flat spotting the tires.
RS 19 Yellow
Best compound for endurance racing on the basis of the RS 14. A slight reduction of the friction value improves the modulation. Nevertheless, the friction value is enough for cars without power-assisted brake system and ensures comfortable low effort on the brake pedal. Constant temperatures up to 600 degrees C (1,100 degrees F) are possible. The combination fo friction value, fading stability, and low wear rates on pads and rotors realized with this pad compound is unmatched. However, due to its outstanding wear rate and driveability also works well for sprint races. This pad is a multiple winner of Daytona 24h, LeMans 24h, Sebring 12h, Spa 24h, Nurburgring 24h, often with no pad change and usually no rotor change."

 

Specs for RE4-2-1 are max 550'..........& a wkg range of 300-500'.

I don't think your ATE was boiling.........personally, I'd try a higher temp pad.

 

Porsche Babe:

Thanks for the pics and part numbers. Does anyone have experience with the Cargraphic parts. For the money, I think I would try the GT3 fronts and GT2 rear ducts first though.

BTW.....are the front GT3 ducts actually supposed to be the GT3-RS ducts or are the GT3 ducts the ones?

 

The front ducts are from the cup car.

 

Here's what I have learnt so far. Even the stock brakes are very good but they will fade eventually. Bleeding your brakes is very key. I find that if I try to skip once, I end up experiencing fade.

1) Start with stocks.
2) Move to Pagid Oranges (Front&Rear)
3) Some people have also tried to Orange front and Black rear as this shifts the bias backwards.
4) Upgrade to bigger brakes (as well as better tires). I just did this and moved to F50 fronts and RS rears. The car brakes VERY well now even on the street with cold Orange pads.

I cant wait to try this out on the track. It should be a lot of fun.

 

Thanks for all the info guys and gals. I'm going to take this in steps. Here's what I'm going to do:

1) Bleed the brakes again with ATE Super Blue
2) Get the GT3 Cup front ducts and the GT2 rear ducts.
3) Try the Pagid Orange (RS 4-4) pads at the track next time.

If this fails, I'll consider bigger rotors and then bigger calipers as a last resort.

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

jack mate,

Button willow is very very easy on brakes, you shoudn't have brake fade on TT. what i suspect is you didn't bed in the pads correctly (just a guess, no offense). i have done that before and glazed the rotors, ruined rotors and pads together. you may also want to try ap551 or motul 600 fluids. don't bother with other brake kits, the big reds on TT are MORE than plenty for DE's. also look at your rotors. do you see any cracks? if not, you really havent' overheated the pads and additinal cooling won't help you much either, most likely pad and rotors are glazed. i run orange/black/yellow pagids on my 996C2 and GT3. the C2 has much smaller rotors than your TT, i do about 35 DE/year and 5000 track miles, i didn't need additional cooling. i am very very hard on brakes. i need new pads at LS every 2 days. so if i am not overheating on my c2, you probably don't need to spend the extra bucks on big brk on TT. check bedding procedure.