HRE's may be banned from PCA track events
#61
06-13-2005, 07:14 AM
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Originally posted by DJ996
I"m not surprised that the bling wheels fall apart at the track, but the problems with Kinesis and Fikse are very surprising. Personally, I'll stick with OEM/ BBS or Ruf wheels on my car.
Who makes the Ruf wheels? I bet they are a quality piece or Ruf wouldn't use them.
I"m not surprised that the bling wheels fall apart at the track, but the problems with Kinesis and Fikse are very surprising. Personally, I'll stick with OEM/ BBS or Ruf wheels on my car.
Who makes the Ruf wheels? I bet they are a quality piece or Ruf wouldn't use them.
Oem, BBS, RUF, can and most likely will see problems like this at one time or another.
#65
06-13-2005, 10:43 PM
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Cary, thanks for the great un-biased opinion. Anything I could or would have said would probably have been represented as a sales pitch. 
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#66
06-14-2005, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by Cary Eisenlohr
Here’s my .02 which I’m sure some won’t agree or like it but, it’s just my point of view from being around the race track more than twenty years.
If PCA is actually considering Banning HRE wheels I’d really like to see the reason. Would it be from this one incident? I think the bench mark for racing wheels is likely BBS and I can’t begin to count the number of those I’ve seen cracked and broken over the years. In fact I believe BBS is even no longer offering their racing centers in the Aluminum/Magnesium blend the used for years do to the fact they’ve had so many problems with their wheels cracking with so few hours of racing. In 87 or 88 when I was driving at 24 hours of Daytona I had a left rear Ronal completely break like the wheel in the photo, it actually came off in a right hand turn in the infield and went under the car and I bounced over it with no warning but, that got my attention. The Ronal’s were 3 piece German made and only about 6 races old. When we got back to the pits we checked all the others and found 5 more of our 16 wheels were starting to crack! We learned the hard way to check our wheels every day at the race track from that point on. Don’t think for a minute that BBS, Fikse, OZ’s or any others you can think of don’t break because they all will at some point unless we do what NASCAR does and all go to Steel wheels (wouldn’t that be swell).
The wheel in the photo is a Kinesis but, I can tell you first hand they are a very serious Company when it comes to the strength and safety of their wheels. This is one of the reasons you don’t see them producing 50 different looking centers. When they design a wheel it is first done on CAD/CAM/CAE software which has the ability to do FEA (finite element analysis) which is complete stress analysis for the particular material. Then they physically build the design and send it to a wheel testing facility that does fatigue testing which cycles the wheel and stresses it until it actually breaks. Then a complete analysis is written on the results. This is not only time consuming but rather expensive. Most all of the larger wheel manufactures do testing similar to this so, the data and the research has been done. I don’t know what happened on the wheel in the photo and it’s really a shame but if nothing else I think everyone reading this thread should learn something rather than pointing fingers. If you like going to the track hopefully you’ll check your wheels for cracking more often now. Because it does and will eventually happen to all of us if we aren’t paying attention.
I can tell you that after 911 Design in Claremont had more than 25 BBS centers crack in less than a year and a half he now for the past 5 years only recommends Kinesis wheels to his customers. He had told me that he now almost NEVER sees wheels crack anymore. They service more than 50 track cars and usually take from 8 to 15 cars to each event. From that one example I think you can say Kinesis last longer than BBS … and I’m a huge fan of BBS … just look at my picture next to my name (that’s my street car)
What I’m trying to say is don’t draw conclusions too quickly without doing the homework. I think it’s not the norm for a wheel to break that quickly and you can bet Kinesis is all over this but, these wheels are clearly not junk!
Here’s my .02 which I’m sure some won’t agree or like it but, it’s just my point of view from being around the race track more than twenty years.
If PCA is actually considering Banning HRE wheels I’d really like to see the reason. Would it be from this one incident? I think the bench mark for racing wheels is likely BBS and I can’t begin to count the number of those I’ve seen cracked and broken over the years. In fact I believe BBS is even no longer offering their racing centers in the Aluminum/Magnesium blend the used for years do to the fact they’ve had so many problems with their wheels cracking with so few hours of racing. In 87 or 88 when I was driving at 24 hours of Daytona I had a left rear Ronal completely break like the wheel in the photo, it actually came off in a right hand turn in the infield and went under the car and I bounced over it with no warning but, that got my attention. The Ronal’s were 3 piece German made and only about 6 races old. When we got back to the pits we checked all the others and found 5 more of our 16 wheels were starting to crack! We learned the hard way to check our wheels every day at the race track from that point on. Don’t think for a minute that BBS, Fikse, OZ’s or any others you can think of don’t break because they all will at some point unless we do what NASCAR does and all go to Steel wheels (wouldn’t that be swell).
The wheel in the photo is a Kinesis but, I can tell you first hand they are a very serious Company when it comes to the strength and safety of their wheels. This is one of the reasons you don’t see them producing 50 different looking centers. When they design a wheel it is first done on CAD/CAM/CAE software which has the ability to do FEA (finite element analysis) which is complete stress analysis for the particular material. Then they physically build the design and send it to a wheel testing facility that does fatigue testing which cycles the wheel and stresses it until it actually breaks. Then a complete analysis is written on the results. This is not only time consuming but rather expensive. Most all of the larger wheel manufactures do testing similar to this so, the data and the research has been done. I don’t know what happened on the wheel in the photo and it’s really a shame but if nothing else I think everyone reading this thread should learn something rather than pointing fingers. If you like going to the track hopefully you’ll check your wheels for cracking more often now. Because it does and will eventually happen to all of us if we aren’t paying attention.
I can tell you that after 911 Design in Claremont had more than 25 BBS centers crack in less than a year and a half he now for the past 5 years only recommends Kinesis wheels to his customers. He had told me that he now almost NEVER sees wheels crack anymore. They service more than 50 track cars and usually take from 8 to 15 cars to each event. From that one example I think you can say Kinesis last longer than BBS … and I’m a huge fan of BBS … just look at my picture next to my name (that’s my street car)
What I’m trying to say is don’t draw conclusions too quickly without doing the homework. I think it’s not the norm for a wheel to break that quickly and you can bet Kinesis is all over this but, these wheels are clearly not junk!
Originally Posted by SoCalSC4
ANY wheel can fail under the right conditions. OE wheels fail. Even the almighty BBS wheels fail. Obviously, we are seeing an extreme case with the Kinesis wheel in the picture. We don't know the facts of what happened with this wheel- was it involved in an impact or accident at some point in the past? How old is it? Why was a race wheel powder coated in the first place?
Hopefully, further examination will lead to a factual conclusion about this failure. Also, it should be noted that racing voids the warranty on almost all aftermarket wheels-certainly all that I know about.
On real race wheels (BBS Magnesium, for example), X-rays are performed after EACH race to inspect for cracks. Race wheels DO have a finite life cycle- they are not meant to be raced on for years and years. Typically, if a set of wheels lasts one race season, you're getting your money's worth... I suspect the wheels in question were not EVER X-rayed, and even a pre-race visual inspection would not reveal a crack due to the opaque powder coat finish.
Also in question would be finish- you would typically NOT want to powder coat or chrome a race wheel, for two reasons: 1) the heat introduced into the wheel center section can be high enough to alter the temper of the aluminum 2) an opaque coating does not allow for visual inspection. Ideally, race wheels should be shot peened & anodized- shot peening relieves stresses and anodizing is not an opaque finish. A few wheel manufacturers offer this finish as an option, but it is not a "pretty" finish, and anodizing is typically not very UV or chemical tolerant.
I believe too many people (particularly in the Viper and Porsche Owner's Clubs) ask their aftermarket wheels to do double duty. They want "pretty" wheels to drive on the street, and they ask this same set of wheels to run five seasons at the track, too. And racers in this category are notoriously cheap (I don't mean to lump ALL of them into this stereotype) - many want the wheels for free (in exchange for running a 3" sticker on the car) and expect them to last several seasons. Like tires, race wheels are expendable.
I can say with certainty that all HRE wheel styles & diameters are subjected to vigorous finite-element analysis and radial & cornering load testing that is twice what the DOT recommends. I'm not sure the "johnny come lately" three-piece wheel manufacturers all do any analysis or testing at all... they are not required to by any law, after all, and the software and testing facilities are expensive. Many of these other three-piece wheel companies do not even have an engineer on staff- their wheels are designed by graphic artists or draftsmen!
There are many elements of a wheel design that must be juxtaposed to make a strong and roadworthy wheel- spoke profile, spoke cross-section, spoke width, etc.. Get just one of these variables wrong and you have a wheel that will fail. Yes, wheels the centers are forged- but it's the total DESIGN of the wheel that will affect its' strength and longevity. It's easy to make a beautiful wheel- it is difficult to make one that's beautiful AND strong.
As far as Damon at the Tire Rack commenting about a 5-spoke wheel not being as strong as a mesh wheel "more spoke = more strength," he is absolutely wrong about this. I would take a well-designed 5-spoke over a poorly-designed mesh wheel any day. The load paths are different, but in many cases a fat 5-spoke wheel is better than a mesh wheel. The strength attributes of different styles are different and can't easily be easily compared directly. He should not have commented about things he has no concept of.
As far as the tires "spinning on the rim," several wheel manufacturers use rims from the same supplier that HRE does, so IF this really is an issue,basically ALL American made three-piece wheels will have it. Most instances of this phenomenon are cause by freshly mounted tires on rims that may have been lubricated by soap or Euro Paste. A car with tons of torque and sticky tires can also create this. Even 4-cylinder front wheel drive drag Civics can do this on slicks...
Thus far, I have not actually seen any recent published evidence of other specifc HRE or Kinesis wheel failures, and these respective racing organizations do not make any mention of any wheel ban. This is why I hate the internet- it's so easy to spread propaganda and panic.
For you street guys- no worry, your wheels are fine- HRE and Kinesis are already overkill for the street, built with HUGE strength/safety margins.. Let's let the wheel manufacturers in question respond before jumping to further conclusions.
Hopefully, further examination will lead to a factual conclusion about this failure. Also, it should be noted that racing voids the warranty on almost all aftermarket wheels-certainly all that I know about.
On real race wheels (BBS Magnesium, for example), X-rays are performed after EACH race to inspect for cracks. Race wheels DO have a finite life cycle- they are not meant to be raced on for years and years. Typically, if a set of wheels lasts one race season, you're getting your money's worth... I suspect the wheels in question were not EVER X-rayed, and even a pre-race visual inspection would not reveal a crack due to the opaque powder coat finish.
Also in question would be finish- you would typically NOT want to powder coat or chrome a race wheel, for two reasons: 1) the heat introduced into the wheel center section can be high enough to alter the temper of the aluminum 2) an opaque coating does not allow for visual inspection. Ideally, race wheels should be shot peened & anodized- shot peening relieves stresses and anodizing is not an opaque finish. A few wheel manufacturers offer this finish as an option, but it is not a "pretty" finish, and anodizing is typically not very UV or chemical tolerant.
I believe too many people (particularly in the Viper and Porsche Owner's Clubs) ask their aftermarket wheels to do double duty. They want "pretty" wheels to drive on the street, and they ask this same set of wheels to run five seasons at the track, too. And racers in this category are notoriously cheap (I don't mean to lump ALL of them into this stereotype) - many want the wheels for free (in exchange for running a 3" sticker on the car) and expect them to last several seasons. Like tires, race wheels are expendable.
I can say with certainty that all HRE wheel styles & diameters are subjected to vigorous finite-element analysis and radial & cornering load testing that is twice what the DOT recommends. I'm not sure the "johnny come lately" three-piece wheel manufacturers all do any analysis or testing at all... they are not required to by any law, after all, and the software and testing facilities are expensive. Many of these other three-piece wheel companies do not even have an engineer on staff- their wheels are designed by graphic artists or draftsmen!
There are many elements of a wheel design that must be juxtaposed to make a strong and roadworthy wheel- spoke profile, spoke cross-section, spoke width, etc.. Get just one of these variables wrong and you have a wheel that will fail. Yes, wheels the centers are forged- but it's the total DESIGN of the wheel that will affect its' strength and longevity. It's easy to make a beautiful wheel- it is difficult to make one that's beautiful AND strong.
As far as Damon at the Tire Rack commenting about a 5-spoke wheel not being as strong as a mesh wheel "more spoke = more strength," he is absolutely wrong about this. I would take a well-designed 5-spoke over a poorly-designed mesh wheel any day. The load paths are different, but in many cases a fat 5-spoke wheel is better than a mesh wheel. The strength attributes of different styles are different and can't easily be easily compared directly. He should not have commented about things he has no concept of.
As far as the tires "spinning on the rim," several wheel manufacturers use rims from the same supplier that HRE does, so IF this really is an issue,basically ALL American made three-piece wheels will have it. Most instances of this phenomenon are cause by freshly mounted tires on rims that may have been lubricated by soap or Euro Paste. A car with tons of torque and sticky tires can also create this. Even 4-cylinder front wheel drive drag Civics can do this on slicks...
Thus far, I have not actually seen any recent published evidence of other specifc HRE or Kinesis wheel failures, and these respective racing organizations do not make any mention of any wheel ban. This is why I hate the internet- it's so easy to spread propaganda and panic.
For you street guys- no worry, your wheels are fine- HRE and Kinesis are already overkill for the street, built with HUGE strength/safety margins.. Let's let the wheel manufacturers in question respond before jumping to further conclusions.
#68
06-14-2005, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by HotRodGuy
Oem, BBS, RUF, can and most likely will see problems like this at one time or another.
Oem, BBS, RUF, can and most likely will see problems like this at one time or another.
I really want to get a lighter wheel for my GT2, as I know how heavy they are, but the fact is that I exceed 200mph indicated several times a year (on autobahns or runways only) and simply cannot take any chances with the possibility of wheel failure.
I spoke to Alois Ruf about this a few months ago, as I asked him why Ruf do not make any lightweight wheels (both the original and the new modular wheels are very heavy) and he said that there was a clear trade-off between weight and relability and that Ruf simply would not take any chances with the wheels reliability given that most of their customers drive their cars at very high speeds.
At 200mph+ there's a lot of comfort from knowing the wheels are the 'carved from granite' solid spoke GT2s..........
#69
06-14-2005, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
[COLOR=red]
For you street guys- no worry, your wheels are fine- HRE and Kinesis are already overkill for the street, built with HUGE strength/safety margins.. Let's let the wheel manufacturers in question respond before jumping to further conclusions.
[COLOR=red]
For you street guys- no worry, your wheels are fine- HRE and Kinesis are already overkill for the street, built with HUGE strength/safety margins.. Let's let the wheel manufacturers in question respond before jumping to further conclusions.
Thank you!! The BLING is BACK!!!!!!!!
#70
06-14-2005, 09:51 AM
Heavy is ok!
I spoke to Alois Ruf about this a few months ago, as I asked him why Ruf do not make any lightweight wheels (both the original and the new modular wheels are very heavy) and he said that there was a clear trade-off between weight and relability and that Ruf simply would not take any chances with the wheels reliability given that most of their customers drive their cars at very high speeds.
At 200mph+ there's a lot of comfort from knowing the wheels are the 'carved from granite' solid spoke GT2s..........
At 200mph+ there's a lot of comfort from knowing the wheels are the 'carved from granite' solid spoke GT2s..........
Cheers,
R
P.S.
Guy: Alois simply said "keep the wheels" when asked about aftermarket replacements.
#71
06-14-2005, 01:38 PM
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Did anyone catch the NASCAR race in Martinsville this weekend?????? I stand corrected about steel wheels!! On lap about 430 something Tony Stewart (in the Home Depot car) had a steel wheel break going through turn one that looked just the one in the beginning of this thread. I think they blamed it on lose lug nuts (which usually just causes the wheel to fall off) so, is it possible that could have been what happened to the Kinesis wheel as well. So, as well as checking for cracks I’ll another item to that list; always recheck your torque before entering the track. Gee.. I hope this means they are now thinking about banning steel wheels from NASCAR 
. Anyway, I just thought this was rather ironic when we were on the subject.
1SICKLEX … very nice post with tons of good detailed info. The only item I’d like to comment on is the 5 spoke verses the multi spoke. I am by no means a wheel expert but, I do tend to look at a fair amount of FEA. From the limited amount of data I’ve looked at, it seems to indicate that a triangulated surface area spread out among the largest surface creates less over all stress. The problem being you don’t want to close of the face causing a cooling problem for the brakes but, you also don’t want to concentrate the loads on fewer beams. What does that all mean… I have no idea as far as which is better than that other but, I’m not sure I’d say a 5 spoke is always the strongest.
Btw, thanks for the nice comments on my earlier post … I was sort of expecting to get beat up on a bit but, I was just saying what I felt many others were thinking
. Anyway, I just thought this was rather ironic when we were on the subject. 1SICKLEX … very nice post with tons of good detailed info. The only item I’d like to comment on is the 5 spoke verses the multi spoke. I am by no means a wheel expert but, I do tend to look at a fair amount of FEA. From the limited amount of data I’ve looked at, it seems to indicate that a triangulated surface area spread out among the largest surface creates less over all stress. The problem being you don’t want to close of the face causing a cooling problem for the brakes but, you also don’t want to concentrate the loads on fewer beams. What does that all mean… I have no idea as far as which is better than that other but, I’m not sure I’d say a 5 spoke is always the strongest.
Btw, thanks for the nice comments on my earlier post … I was sort of expecting to get beat up on a bit but, I was just saying what I felt many others were thinking
Last edited by Cary Eisenlohr; 06-14-2005 at 02:01 PM.
#73
06-14-2005, 03:44 PM
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Highly informative and practical, educated posts 1SICKLEX and Cary Eisenlohr. Thanks for explaining the physics and insights so that we can draw better, well-informed conclusions.
I wanted to state that the title of this thread is truly misleading and unfounded without facts or supportive conclusions. Unfortunately this thread didn't start out as a sincere FYI, rather an irresponsible headline. Sadly, I'm seeing people in other threads here who most likely read the title and nothing more (maybe the first page only), now intimidated by aftermarket brands/wheel purchases, in general.
Making these unsubstantiated conclusions that HRE wheels, infact Kinesis wheels from the actual picture, are not track-worthy to the point of being "banned" could apply to most any wheel. So, does that mean if I post ONE stock 996TT wheel that has fractured completely irrespective of the event or condition/cyclical stress which produced that failure on the track, I can blatantly state that "Stock Porsche Wheels May Be Banned From All Future Track Events Around the US?" Please, lets find out more about the circumstances, more details from the owner (powder-coating re-processing, etc), along with maybe SOME? recurring evidence before making invalid conclusions that unjustifiably tarnishes a wheel manufacturer/business. Don't forget, this type of headline creates a sense of of general insecurity about specific brands just like crying wolf. I wouldn't like someone posting my fractured wheels on the Internet forums to highlight it as conclusive evidence for some Unilateral BAN or brand-inferred inferiority, especially without my permission. Just as importantly, I'm certain that the mis-labled and depicted wheel manufacturers wouldn't enjoy their business spotlighted as an unfounded icon of catastrophic quality failure either.
I wanted to state that the title of this thread is truly misleading and unfounded without facts or supportive conclusions. Unfortunately this thread didn't start out as a sincere FYI, rather an irresponsible headline. Sadly, I'm seeing people in other threads here who most likely read the title and nothing more (maybe the first page only), now intimidated by aftermarket brands/wheel purchases, in general.
Making these unsubstantiated conclusions that HRE wheels, infact Kinesis wheels from the actual picture, are not track-worthy to the point of being "banned" could apply to most any wheel. So, does that mean if I post ONE stock 996TT wheel that has fractured completely irrespective of the event or condition/cyclical stress which produced that failure on the track, I can blatantly state that "Stock Porsche Wheels May Be Banned From All Future Track Events Around the US?" Please, lets find out more about the circumstances, more details from the owner (powder-coating re-processing, etc), along with maybe SOME? recurring evidence before making invalid conclusions that unjustifiably tarnishes a wheel manufacturer/business. Don't forget, this type of headline creates a sense of of general insecurity about specific brands just like crying wolf. I wouldn't like someone posting my fractured wheels on the Internet forums to highlight it as conclusive evidence for some Unilateral BAN or brand-inferred inferiority, especially without my permission. Just as importantly, I'm certain that the mis-labled and depicted wheel manufacturers wouldn't enjoy their business spotlighted as an unfounded icon of catastrophic quality failure either.
Last edited by RU_MATRX; 06-14-2005 at 04:05 PM.
#75
06-14-2005, 04:47 PM
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Cary
I agree with you, doesnt matter what wheel manufacturer I am sure this is not the norm with Kinesis or HRE, having used both on multiple race cars..
Weve all thrown wheels away because of age and use.. especially in racing...
I agree with you, doesnt matter what wheel manufacturer I am sure this is not the norm with Kinesis or HRE, having used both on multiple race cars..
Weve all thrown wheels away because of age and use.. especially in racing...