Went drag racing tonight with the GT2
#17
06-24-2005, 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by Hamann7
cgmeredithjr... if you knew how much my old system cost, you would **** a brick and it would **** off a lot of the tuners on this board.
So, I will keep quiet on that.
I am not here to start another redundant and pedantic thread on what tuner is best, blah blah blah. Personally having "been there done that" looking back I think it's pretty retarded to engage in these BIG HP wars for zillion hp engines, etc. considering that full bore race cars from Alzen and Manthey are running "only" 700hp.
There is no doubt which one I would choose between a Ruf Nardo motor with its measly 590hp engine or one of these 800hp grenades.
How many of these huge HP setups have been extensively tested on high speed circuits or roads or even on the racetrack under extreme conditions? How can these tuners certify long-term reliability? Or can they?
If all you want is a fast straightline car, perhaps a Supra or Skyline would have been the cheaper and better choice.
I chuckled when I heard about your claimed HP numbers on VP 109. Give me a break, you call those real world numbers? To run so much boost and needing VP 109 should give you an indication of how dangerously aggressive your programming is. One should tune for reliability with a built in safety margin, not stretch to the limit. I hope you don't plan to sell your GT2.
If you speak to the real pros in this field, like the guys who actually win races, you would see what I'm talking about. Having a car like a Porsche is not about having more power than the chassis can handle or use effectively around corners.
But hey, to each his own. Some people will never get it.
By the way, there is no doubt in my mind that Protomotive is one of the top tuners. You do not need an EFI or Motec to run seperate wastegates or even to completely swap out the stock turbo system with something far more efficient like the Garretts. There is a reason why Chad has been developing his car with Todd Knighton. Chad had certain parameters on why he wanted to use a KKK/Garrett hybrid setup, but he would be the first to tell you that for consistent big HP/low boost applications, you simply need a big but efficient turbo like a GT-35.
cgmeredithjr... if you knew how much my old system cost, you would **** a brick and it would **** off a lot of the tuners on this board.
So, I will keep quiet on that.
I am not here to start another redundant and pedantic thread on what tuner is best, blah blah blah. Personally having "been there done that" looking back I think it's pretty retarded to engage in these BIG HP wars for zillion hp engines, etc. considering that full bore race cars from Alzen and Manthey are running "only" 700hp.
There is no doubt which one I would choose between a Ruf Nardo motor with its measly 590hp engine or one of these 800hp grenades.
How many of these huge HP setups have been extensively tested on high speed circuits or roads or even on the racetrack under extreme conditions? How can these tuners certify long-term reliability? Or can they?
If all you want is a fast straightline car, perhaps a Supra or Skyline would have been the cheaper and better choice.
I chuckled when I heard about your claimed HP numbers on VP 109. Give me a break, you call those real world numbers? To run so much boost and needing VP 109 should give you an indication of how dangerously aggressive your programming is. One should tune for reliability with a built in safety margin, not stretch to the limit. I hope you don't plan to sell your GT2.
If you speak to the real pros in this field, like the guys who actually win races, you would see what I'm talking about. Having a car like a Porsche is not about having more power than the chassis can handle or use effectively around corners.
But hey, to each his own. Some people will never get it.
By the way, there is no doubt in my mind that Protomotive is one of the top tuners. You do not need an EFI or Motec to run seperate wastegates or even to completely swap out the stock turbo system with something far more efficient like the Garretts. There is a reason why Chad has been developing his car with Todd Knighton. Chad had certain parameters on why he wanted to use a KKK/Garrett hybrid setup, but he would be the first to tell you that for consistent big HP/low boost applications, you simply need a big but efficient turbo like a GT-35.
Chuckled about the numbers? Why? Those numbers were attained at the shootout while everyone was watching. Those numbers will be generated on one of my 3 programs. This is a street car which will see lapping day events about once a month...it will not be circling Daytona wide open for 24HRS!
Of course these cars are made for going around corners, that is why I had Stephen install the Moton Clubsport suspension while he has the car. Care to see who can post a better time at Road Atlanta...you can drive a GT3RS (race car) if you like.
#18
06-24-2005, 12:59 PM
cg, I have no interest in arguing with you. I've made my point and it is obvious we are not talking about the same thing. The fact that you think a set of Moton CS shocks will make all the difference in the world to handle your alleged 800hp shows that you are indeed misinformed.
You seem to forget who won the first shootout. But it doesn't even matter, to each his own. I'm done with this drag racing bull****. I also remember saying that I would now go with RUF, all things considered. Please tell us how superior your setup will be to the Ruf Nardo, oh I am so curious to know.
Give me a GT3-RS or better yet an RSR set up by Kent Moore of Premier Sportscar Service and the crew at White Lightning and your GT2 will look like a piece of **** on any racetrack. It's not just what you have, it's how you set it up.
Why don't you look up Kent Moore or Bob Linton or Cary Eisenlohr and then tell me how great your "tuners" are by comparison.
These guys are the real gurus. While you're at it, you might as well look up "White Lightning Racing," whose crew sets up Kent's customers.
We are obviously talking about two different things, so there really is no argument, is there? With all due respect, enjoy your bragging rights, I'm sure your car will get the attention from the idiot Blingers on this forum. Just try not to brag too much to the guys who actually take real performance seriously. They tend to like things that last and perform, and most importantly, are proven to work without failure.
You seem to forget who won the first shootout. But it doesn't even matter, to each his own. I'm done with this drag racing bull****. I also remember saying that I would now go with RUF, all things considered. Please tell us how superior your setup will be to the Ruf Nardo, oh I am so curious to know.
Give me a GT3-RS or better yet an RSR set up by Kent Moore of Premier Sportscar Service and the crew at White Lightning and your GT2 will look like a piece of **** on any racetrack. It's not just what you have, it's how you set it up.
Why don't you look up Kent Moore or Bob Linton or Cary Eisenlohr and then tell me how great your "tuners" are by comparison.
These guys are the real gurus. While you're at it, you might as well look up "White Lightning Racing," whose crew sets up Kent's customers.We are obviously talking about two different things, so there really is no argument, is there? With all due respect, enjoy your bragging rights, I'm sure your car will get the attention from the idiot Blingers on this forum. Just try not to brag too much to the guys who actually take real performance seriously. They tend to like things that last and perform, and most importantly, are proven to work without failure.
Last edited by Hamann7; 06-24-2005 at 01:09 PM.
#19
06-24-2005, 01:00 PM
Thread is going a bit OT, but just to add my 2cents......
I did the whole high boost thing with Skylines (R33 GTR @ 1.3bar for 500bhp, R34 GTR @ 1.8bar for 700bhp and drag R32 GTR @ 2.0bar+ for >1000bhp) and I whilst it generated lots of power, it made tons of heat and resulted in 5 engine rebuilds.
Now I have the Ruf Nardo engine in a GT2 and at 1.1-1.2bar there is virtually nothing that can touch it on the road or track.....
Guy
I did the whole high boost thing with Skylines (R33 GTR @ 1.3bar for 500bhp, R34 GTR @ 1.8bar for 700bhp and drag R32 GTR @ 2.0bar+ for >1000bhp) and I whilst it generated lots of power, it made tons of heat and resulted in 5 engine rebuilds.
Now I have the Ruf Nardo engine in a GT2 and at 1.1-1.2bar there is virtually nothing that can touch it on the road or track.....
Guy
#20
06-24-2005, 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by Hamann7
cg, I have no interest in arguing with you. I've made my point and it is obvious we are not talking about the same thing. The fact that you think a set of Moton CS shocks will make all the difference in the world to handle your alleged 800hp shows that you are indeed misinformed.
You seem to forget who won the first shootout. But it doesn't even matter, to each his own. I'm done with this drag racing bull****. I also remember saying that I would now go with RUF, all things considered. Please tell us how superior your setup will be to the Ruf Nardo, oh I am so curious to know.
Give me a GT3-RS or better yet an RSR set up by Kent Moore of Premier Sportscar Service and the crew at White Lightning and your GT2 will look like a piece of **** on any racetrack. It's not just what you have, it's how you set it up.
Why don't you look up Kent Moore or Bob Linton or Cary Eisenlohr and then tell me how great your "tuners" are by comparison. These guys are the real gurus. While you're at it, you might as well look up "White Lightning Racing," whose crew sets up Kent's customers.
We are obviously talking about two different things, so there really is no argument, is there? Your **** is for amateur hacks, I tend to like things that last and perform, and most importantly, are proven to work without failure.
cg, I have no interest in arguing with you. I've made my point and it is obvious we are not talking about the same thing. The fact that you think a set of Moton CS shocks will make all the difference in the world to handle your alleged 800hp shows that you are indeed misinformed.
You seem to forget who won the first shootout. But it doesn't even matter, to each his own. I'm done with this drag racing bull****. I also remember saying that I would now go with RUF, all things considered. Please tell us how superior your setup will be to the Ruf Nardo, oh I am so curious to know.
Give me a GT3-RS or better yet an RSR set up by Kent Moore of Premier Sportscar Service and the crew at White Lightning and your GT2 will look like a piece of **** on any racetrack. It's not just what you have, it's how you set it up.
Why don't you look up Kent Moore or Bob Linton or Cary Eisenlohr and then tell me how great your "tuners" are by comparison.
These guys are the real gurus. While you're at it, you might as well look up "White Lightning Racing," whose crew sets up Kent's customers.We are obviously talking about two different things, so there really is no argument, is there? Your **** is for amateur hacks, I tend to like things that last and perform, and most importantly, are proven to work without failure.
P.S. I meant you could use a GT3RSR. Oh, and by the way, my GT2 is only a STREET car set up for some road course playtime. Think you can run sub 1:29s?
#21
06-24-2005, 01:27 PM
I wouldn't know. Haven't run Road Atlanta before.
Obviously you must be some pro level driver. I am just a hack that can hardly drive for ****. I'll just let Cary or Craig Stanton drive on my behalf. Is this a discussion about drivers or cars?
But either way, I am curious to see your street GT2 that is an RSR killer. I'll be sure to let all the ALMS teams know so that they can learn so much from your "little guys."
Hey Neil @ ORTON, are you paying attention? You might as well close shop now, since obviously PSI's pedigree means nothing in this brave new world of tuning.
I just emailed Mr. Manthey and Mr. Alzen and they said they are really scared about the American tuners' entry into the 24H Nurburgring next year. They are considering pulling out since they wouldn't want to be embarrassed by the homegrown tuners. It would seriously tarnish their reputation and Porsche might pull factory support from them and lend drivers like Lucas Luhr and Timo Bernhard to your guys instead. Oh, the horror!!!
Obviously you must be some pro level driver. I am just a hack that can hardly drive for ****. I'll just let Cary or Craig Stanton drive on my behalf. Is this a discussion about drivers or cars?
But either way, I am curious to see your street GT2 that is an RSR killer. I'll be sure to let all the ALMS teams know so that they can learn so much from your "little guys."
Hey Neil @ ORTON, are you paying attention? You might as well close shop now, since obviously PSI's pedigree means nothing in this brave new world of tuning.
I just emailed Mr. Manthey and Mr. Alzen and they said they are really scared about the American tuners' entry into the 24H Nurburgring next year. They are considering pulling out since they wouldn't want to be embarrassed by the homegrown tuners. It would seriously tarnish their reputation and Porsche might pull factory support from them and lend drivers like Lucas Luhr and Timo Bernhard to your guys instead. Oh, the horror!!!
Last edited by Hamann7; 06-24-2005 at 03:07 PM.
#22
06-24-2005, 01:48 PM
It must be my first post ever to answer someone who has written in such a tone, I typically don't, but you really are starting to be annoying. My name is not Mr. Low boost/High Hp, my name is Jean, and I suggest you keep the little decency that you might still have as a respect to me and other readers.
If I had not seen pictures somewhere of a family I would think you are 15 years old because the level of nonsense that you can write in a sentence is worth a Pullitzer price. English is my 5th language by the way so pardon me if what I am writing below is not very understandable or could be perceived as impolite, it is not my intention.
If you want to know how much my system and ancillary cost, send me a PM and try to be a gentleman and keep it to yourself, out of respect to my builder who earns a living building fast cars. IIn any case I can guarantee you it is almost the same that you would spend with bolt-ons and that is with Stephen K. who is one of the few out there who is decent and genuine person. You might want to check with him, maybe I know him before you ever heard of him.
Reinventing the wheel is what you think, whatever has been done to my car, has been done for years in the US by certain people, and before that in Europe. Same technology as the 1995 993GT2 EVO if you even know what it is. Go to Protomotive website and read about pressure sensing, I am sure you will learn something, this has been around for years and one of the best ways to achieve high output. But what is funny is that you do not even know that I am using Motronic, do you know any tuner in the US using Motronic with twin plug and pressure sensing? There are a few in Europe yes.
680 RWHP?? We will see when you show us your acceleration figures. Let me guess, you will be using the GREAT GT2 intercoolers? Good luck Do a search for a certain Alzen 996 that is doing 600 hp in Europe and beating the crap out of everyone, that car is running 0.95 Bars of boost and is having trouble keeping intake temps down during racing. BTW they are using Secan intercoolers among other things, but you would not know what that is anyway.
Who cares at what Boost you achieve your hp? That just proves your total ignorance of the turbo engines. You have a track car you say? And who cares at what boost levels you are running Huh!? Moton CS, wow! A true racer...Oh, I think I have the same!!
Do you really understand the word engine efficiency? 862 FWhp at 1.3 Bar is what efficiency means (on an engine dyno, not chassis), on a stock 3.6 engine and stock cams, and 370hp per absolute bar is what it is. Do you have any idea what that is like? I don't think so. Think of a GT3 running (what, 8.5 compression?) at 7200 RPMs and giving you 370 hp, maybe that can make you understand something. That is what Todd K. achieved..Out of respect for builders who have at least 10 times your engineering IQ, I would keep my mouth shut and listen, maybe you can learn something.
Let us see your acceleration figures, and then you will have earned "some" credibility.
Oh, are you using Kevin's turbos? Yeah I have heard about him, maybe you can ask him if I have known him before you ever owned a Porsche.
I apologize to the initial poster for this OT but people like these cannot be kept unanswered.
I don't care who is the tuner or not, I try to present facts and figures, regardless, whenever I see claims by my tuner that seem unreasonable, I make sure I let him know too. I am not married to any of them, I live 10k miles away.
If I had not seen pictures somewhere of a family I would think you are 15 years old because the level of nonsense that you can write in a sentence is worth a Pullitzer price. English is my 5th language by the way so pardon me if what I am writing below is not very understandable or could be perceived as impolite, it is not my intention.
If you want to know how much my system and ancillary cost, send me a PM and try to be a gentleman and keep it to yourself, out of respect to my builder who earns a living building fast cars. IIn any case I can guarantee you it is almost the same that you would spend with bolt-ons and that is with Stephen K. who is one of the few out there who is decent and genuine person. You might want to check with him, maybe I know him before you ever heard of him.
Reinventing the wheel is what you think, whatever has been done to my car, has been done for years in the US by certain people, and before that in Europe. Same technology as the 1995 993GT2 EVO if you even know what it is. Go to Protomotive website and read about pressure sensing, I am sure you will learn something, this has been around for years and one of the best ways to achieve high output. But what is funny is that you do not even know that I am using Motronic, do you know any tuner in the US using Motronic with twin plug and pressure sensing? There are a few in Europe yes.
680 RWHP?? We will see when you show us your acceleration figures. Let me guess, you will be using the GREAT GT2 intercoolers? Good luck
Do a search for a certain Alzen 996 that is doing 600 hp in Europe and beating the crap out of everyone, that car is running 0.95 Bars of boost and is having trouble keeping intake temps down during racing. BTW they are using Secan intercoolers among other things, but you would not know what that is anyway. Who cares at what Boost you achieve your hp? That just proves your total ignorance of the turbo engines. You have a track car you say? And who cares at what boost levels you are running Huh!? Moton CS, wow! A true racer...Oh, I think I have the same!!
Do you really understand the word engine efficiency? 862 FWhp at 1.3 Bar is what efficiency means (on an engine dyno, not chassis), on a stock 3.6 engine and stock cams, and 370hp per absolute bar is what it is. Do you have any idea what that is like? I don't think so. Think of a GT3 running (what, 8.5 compression?) at 7200 RPMs and giving you 370 hp, maybe that can make you understand something. That is what Todd K. achieved..Out of respect for builders who have at least 10 times your engineering IQ, I would keep my mouth shut and listen, maybe you can learn something.
Let us see your acceleration figures, and then you will have earned "some" credibility.
Oh, are you using Kevin's turbos? Yeah I have heard about him, maybe you can ask him if I have known him before you ever owned a Porsche.
I apologize to the initial poster for this OT but people like these cannot be kept unanswered.
I don't care who is the tuner or not, I try to present facts and figures, regardless, whenever I see claims by my tuner that seem unreasonable, I make sure I let him know too. I am not married to any of them, I live 10k miles away.
Originally posted by cgmeredithjr
Let's ask Jean an interesting question. Mr. Low Boost/High HP, how much did your engine and ancillary systems cost to produce? When you start reinventing the wheel, I bet it gets a little more expensive than improving the stock set up. I agree that stand alone EFI using a MAP sensor instead of a MAF sensor in conjunction with separate wastegates can be more efficient and allow the use of a wider variety of turbos....been there done that on some high HP Datsun 240Z's, but redesigning the entire system leads to mucho $$, just ask Chad.
I have just decided on programming for my GT2. My top race program should produce 680RWHP @ 5000RPM and 744RWTQ (proven numbers...just ask Stephen) on VP109 unleaded, yes I will be running more than 1BAR, but who cares, it still makes the power and earlier. Plenty of power "under" the curve. This can be done by improving the stock design (less cost).
P.S. That's about 800HP & 875LBFT of torque on an engine dyno.
Let's ask Jean an interesting question. Mr. Low Boost/High HP, how much did your engine and ancillary systems cost to produce? When you start reinventing the wheel, I bet it gets a little more expensive than improving the stock set up. I agree that stand alone EFI using a MAP sensor instead of a MAF sensor in conjunction with separate wastegates can be more efficient and allow the use of a wider variety of turbos....been there done that on some high HP Datsun 240Z's, but redesigning the entire system leads to mucho $$, just ask Chad.
I have just decided on programming for my GT2. My top race program should produce 680RWHP @ 5000RPM and 744RWTQ (proven numbers...just ask Stephen) on VP109 unleaded, yes I will be running more than 1BAR, but who cares, it still makes the power and earlier. Plenty of power "under" the curve. This can be done by improving the stock design (less cost).
P.S. That's about 800HP & 875LBFT of torque on an engine dyno.
#23
06-24-2005, 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by Jean
Thanks. Is the stock boost guage on the 996TT limited like the 993TT?
With that trap speed and a stock weight 996TT, it means you are seeing around 550 hp at the flywheel. At 1.2 Bars of boost, it is quite low, considering that at 1 Bar other 996TTs (with different turbos and exhaust I must say) are seeing well beyond 600 hp (on engine dyno). I think there is potential for much more at 1.2 Bar.
Thanks. Is the stock boost guage on the 996TT limited like the 993TT?
With that trap speed and a stock weight 996TT, it means you are seeing around 550 hp at the flywheel. At 1.2 Bars of boost, it is quite low, considering that at 1 Bar other 996TTs (with different turbos and exhaust I must say) are seeing well beyond 600 hp (on engine dyno). I think there is potential for much more at 1.2 Bar.
#1 2006 C6 6 speed with drag radials and exaust 13.50@101
#2 2003 Stock Mustang Cobra 13.70
Just to give you guys a idea on how bad the conditions were.
Ruiner asked, tom, what mods did you do to your GT2? 126mph is moving.
EVO airbox and flash.
#25
06-24-2005, 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by tom91722
Cleve
#26
06-24-2005, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by tom91722
I live in the San Francisco bay area very cool temps and low humidity and normaly I see 1.1 and 1.2 BAR, Last night at sacramento it was hot and humid. The boost gauge showed 1.0 during the run when it ran 126 MPH. It felt VERY slow on that run when comparing to driving around the bay area. But all in all im very happy, for being a PHAT *** @ 250 and 1/2 tank of fuel and HOT AS HELL UH this $#@%#$ was running. Just to give you an example of the weather conditions, this is what I saw running last night
#1 2006 C6 6 speed with drag radials and exaust 13.50@101
#2 2003 Stock Mustang Cobra 13.70
Just to give you guys a idea on how bad the conditions were.
Ruiner asked, tom, what mods did you do to your GT2? 126mph is moving.
EVO airbox and flash.
I live in the San Francisco bay area very cool temps and low humidity and normaly I see 1.1 and 1.2 BAR, Last night at sacramento it was hot and humid. The boost gauge showed 1.0 during the run when it ran 126 MPH. It felt VERY slow on that run when comparing to driving around the bay area. But all in all im very happy, for being a PHAT *** @ 250 and 1/2 tank of fuel and HOT AS HELL UH this $#@%#$ was running. Just to give you an example of the weather conditions, this is what I saw running last night
#1 2006 C6 6 speed with drag radials and exaust 13.50@101
#2 2003 Stock Mustang Cobra 13.70
Just to give you guys a idea on how bad the conditions were.
Ruiner asked, tom, what mods did you do to your GT2? 126mph is moving.
EVO airbox and flash.
I know what you mean, I see 90 degrees F minimum throughout the year, and know how it impacts performance. If you were seeing 1 Bar of boost, those numbers make perfect sense.
Again sorry for the OT. Cheers.
#28
06-24-2005, 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by Hamann7
.........sigh........... some people simply have a comprehension problem.
.........sigh........... some people simply have a comprehension problem.
Yup, me 2 but hey I wear shorts and a t-shirt to work, dropped out of high school in 9th grade and make 500k year go figgure FO-SHIZILLE-MY-NIZZLEcomprehension: NOUN: 1a. The act or fact of grasping the meaning, nature, or importance of; understanding. b. The knowledge that is acquired in this way.
Last edited by tom91722; 06-24-2005 at 03:38 PM.
#29
06-24-2005, 04:11 PM
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Yeah, I wear a t-shirt and shorts to work too. I'm just a dumbass guy that works at a car wash. I love the look people give me when I'm in the GT2 and they ask what I do for a living. I tell them I am an Automotive Beautician and they are not sure how to respond...priceless.
Hamann7 and Jean,
In all seriousness there must have been a communication breakdown somewhere, but I interpret your posts as condescending, I apologize if I misinterpreted. I'm sure you cars are quick, I bet mine is too. Jean, I will post my 60 to 207MPH numbers as soon as I get them. Why 207? that will be my max speed @7000RPM in 6th (stock gearing) and 25.5" tall tire.
Cleve
Hamann7 and Jean,
In all seriousness there must have been a communication breakdown somewhere, but I interpret your posts as condescending, I apologize if I misinterpreted. I'm sure you cars are quick, I bet mine is too. Jean, I will post my 60 to 207MPH numbers as soon as I get them. Why 207? that will be my max speed @7000RPM in 6th (stock gearing) and 25.5" tall tire.
Cleve
