Yet another coolant hose failure!
 

Reporting live, from the side of the road! V here, latest victim of the coolant hose failure phenomenon. And I got some really damning pics to go along with my report to the authorities.

I'll post them up later here.

On the bright side, I was planning to put my car in the shop next week anyway. And brighter still, I caught the leak immediately and shut it down before it all drained out. You'll see the trail in the pictures. Ridiculous.

-V

It is ridiculous were you driving it hard at the time and curious what miles you have on it. Off subject how come as often as you post your count doesn't seem to move?

Hey, thanks for keeping me company as I wait for the flatbed. Speaking of, any tips or tricks in getting it loaded? Do's and don't's?

I've got around 28k on the clock, and wasn't driving it any harder than it was designed to handle, that's for sure. I'm not even modded up yet.

Not sure what's going on with my post count, if anything. I pay more attention to my reputation. ;)

Wait til you see these pics...

-V

Use a flat bed and hopefully they have seen a Porsche before and don't tear out the suspension or rip of your spoiler. I would drive it up on if the angle works and the cars not leaking to bad.

Use the tow hook into the front bumper if you do not wanna drive it up. Dont wrap the front axle with a chain and pull it up. Sorry to hear, Im always driving with the fear that my coolant lines might let go.

Sucks. I keep counting down in mine. Looking out the back for a trail of coolant.

But. You will get it fixed and start having fun again in no time

Sorry this happened to you, man.
Glad you caught it quickly and it didn't take you (or anyone else) out.
I'm having mine welded the next time my engine comes out. Until then... :confused:

Wow that sucks!!! Let me take a guess it was the hose right by the alternator?

sucks. good that you were able to stop without more drama. looks like we keep racking up more events which makes us all w/out pinned lines more squeamish i'm sure. sheesh. gl w it.

Please report your incident with the NHTSA, the link is listed here:

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...s-repairs.html

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

Scene of the crime...
 

First off, thanks to you all, my friends. Your commiseration helped soothe the blow. As welcome as that was though, those that have had this issue in the past and shared their experiences here have my even deeper gratitude. Without you guys, I would have had no idea what this all was. Knowing about it, and how to deal with it made this all very manageable - ho-hum, even.

While I'm giving shout outs... AT&T Roadside Assistance, 10 years I've been paying you $4 bucks a month. This, my first and only call to you in all that time was worth every penny.

And to my indy Porsche master mechanic, who left his home to open his shop at 10pm on a Saturday to let me tuck in there for the weekend, YOU ARE THE MAN. (If you're within 20 miles of Huntington, NY, PM me for his info. You won't regret it.)

Now for the show!
Check these out. You can clearly see where I came to stop as I noticed the trail of steam. I idled for about 3 seconds to confirm the situation (thanks again, predecessors!), then immediately called the shot: reverse onto the side street, and engine off. Temp never got a needle's width or two above the 180 tic.

The car left nearly every drop of its coolant on the ground between the 100 feet of rolling to a stop and reversing to its pit-stop where I waited for the flatbed. If this had happened at night, or at speed, or some other situation where I wouldn't have caught it until my gauges started yelling at me, the engine could very well have been a cinder.

In my humble yet professional opinion, this is a woeful negligence on Porsche's part. Never mind the quality control issues and the cost to repair. This is legitimate, potentially life-threatening failure that can affect not only owners/operators of the car, but also those driving behind them. The suddenness of onset and the immediacy of the required response can cause a panic situation for the driver. The consequent trail and pool of coolant on the road surface pose a great risk to other drivers for hours after the event. Both of these threaten the lives of the operators these cars as well as those of proximate vehicles.

It's my sincerest hope that my report to the NHTSA, photos, and experience - in conjunction with those of others unfortunate enough to share it - compels a model-wide recall to address this very serious problem.

Stay safe out there,
-V

Damn V! Nice catch though before any additional damage. Subscribed, so please report on repairs and costs. Any idea?

Transcript of my NHTSA report...
 

Filed a moment ago, enjoy. More importantly, let's hope it gets the attention from the investigators.

Summary: Failure of coolant hoses during normal operation of vehicle, resulting in immediate flushing of all coolant onto road surface and into engine bay. Immediate engine shutdown required to prevent further damage. Observed risks include: panic situation to operator and passengers of vehicle; catastrophic engine failure due to overheating and consequent accident threat; loss of traction to vehicle and subsequent traffic due to high volume of coolant on road surface; vapor trail limiting visibility of subsequent traffic; roadside accident hazard affecting vehicle and subsequent traffic.

Details: Saturday, July 27, 2013, ~7:15pm ET, Nassau County NY - Westbound on State Route 24 - Hempstead Turnpike. Driving at approximately 45MPH in 3rd gear, vehicle operator noticed a thick cloud of vapor emanating from the rear of the vehicle, over the engine compartment. Operator brought vehicle to a halt in the middle of the road, whereupon the odor of burning coolant was detected. Having been familiarized with reports of like vehicles being afflicted with these symptoms, operator immediately placed vehicle into reverse and backed vehicle off of Route 24 and onto a side street, and turned off vehicle by removing the key.

Operator observed the outside temperature to be approximately 75 degrees Fahrenheit, and the vehicle's reported (remaining) coolant temperature to be approximately 190 degrees Fahrenheit at the time of the incident. All other vehicle systems were functioning properly at the time of the incident. Vehicle has been regularly serviced and its engine, intake, and cooling systems are unmodified, factory specification.

Operator has photographic evidence of the event and will provide to NHTSA and related parties upon lawful request.

ASLAN & Co.: Keep up to date with all the goings on between Porsche and the NHTSA by clicking here to view the NHTSA's published internal communications, as well as those with Porsche Cars, N.A. during the investigation.

For my part, I'll be following closely.
-V

very nicely done. couldn't ask for a more cogent description of events. thx for sharing the info and your articulation. ( even more squeamish now ugh )

Maybe you can amend your report to say coolant manifold insert failure, that is the real issue. Hoses fail due to age but the coolant inserts should not have failed, that was due to poor initial engineering by Porsche, and what the NHTSA is looking at.

Did you happen to take any photos of the failure in the engine bay?

Yes, that's the real issue. I recommend the BBI coolant hose inserts and have your indie weld them all in. I've seen it cost $2000-4000 all in.

I'll get detailed photographs on Monday while at the shop, and update the report accordingly with those technical details.

For now I'm just happy to be okay, and glad that this happened when and how it did. Here's hoping PCNA does the right thing, or is compelled to. Whatever it takes. If I weren't a member here, I'd have no idea what was going on and probably have driven the 2 miles on the highway back to my place. Lord knows the damage and risk I would have incurred! They need handle this issue before it kills or maims someone unfamiliar with it - or a driver behind him.

-V

it will be instructive to hear of your indies suggested repair. jb weld ( which many have found to work ) or actual tig weld/pinned..

and then there are the costs.. cpl grand at the least (?)

Well the most common area that goes is the hose by the alternator. We JB Weld it together and so far after 3 months with easy to hard driving no issues. Ya some people will say well thats the cheap way better then spending 3k for right now.

Vendetta- I live in Huntington and just picked up an 01tt, can you give me the heads up on the mechanic you were referring to in earlier post- Would appreciate it-

i woud sure try the jb weld before i spent 3-4k too. though it is a bit.. well. it's just a different kinda glue.

Yes your right a tad stronger.



Ok so here is the steps on the JB Weld for whoever is going to do this.


1. Buy the black and the red containers they are sold together.

2. Mix them and make sure there fully mixed.

3. When applying make sure its fully clean and you get the whole thing with the JB Weld. Don't put a ton of it on.

4. Most important do not dry it with a heat gun let it dry on its own for 1 to 2 days. If you think of drying it for 6 hours you will be right back in the shop LOL.

5. Have fun driving it hard.

did i read somewhere that these cars and this issue now requires that coolant line repairs be completed on the cars before they can be tracked? how's that work..? is it track by track discretionary call.. or pca events??

and does the jb weld fix constitute a "repair", if even these new requirements exist? maybe i imagined it. lol

just had this done due to failure. the hrs to take everything off, weld, and reassemble cost a lot.. had BBI do this, and while i was there, added the last of my mods that were sitting in boxes.. expensive, to say the least!

Sorry to see another members car down because of this issue. However, if it had to happen, a scenario like this seems to be ideal in terms of vehicle/driver/motorist safety. Catch it quick, pull over, and shut off the car before any damage can be done.

Keep us posted on the outcome.

Bummer to hear this. This should be on every PPI list also..almost more important than the 2nd gear popout..

I also had a coolant issue years ago..wasn't this coolant line issue, but it was a coolant vent line in the front radiator that failed..spewing coolant everywhere..and it happened while I was out doing so some..ummm. field testing...slippery and smoky scary...

IMO it's a good time to inspect everything while the engine is out and do a clutch or intake pipes. JB weld will only hold that one pipe - there are 5 more that can fail at any time. I just liked to get it all taken care of and not have to worry about it. Plus my mechanic found a bad engine mount and he replaced all the vac lines he could since it was out and they were 10 years old...

OK, so I assume this can be done without pulling the engine. Is there a DIY?

Yes theres a couple in the front that can be done but there are 2 others that need the engine out. The most common one that has failed is the one by the alternator.

Good question not sure on that i think someone might chime in on this one.......

I'm going to be the one doing the suggesting - for a full on weld. And I plan on submitting the bill to PCNA. This is a very serious issue and they're lucky they're not facing a lawsuit for wrongful death or dismemberment instead. Why they haven't gotten in front of this issue with a recall is just beyond me. As I said, if I weren't a member here, I'd have NO IDEA what was going on. And there are a LOT of owners out there who aren't members here. Connect the dots, right?

I'm a do it once, do it right person. If I'm dropping the motor, then we might as well "do this."

Check PMs, neighbor. Hope to meet up sometime.

Yes you did. I saw that thread last night. I searched for "coolant hose failure" and it was in one of those threads. Believe the fix is mandatory for all PCA events at this point. Tells ya somethin'.

I'm all over it and will share every step of the way with the membership here.

Have any other members been contacted yet by the NHTSA Investigator?

Yeah, I think this is a season-ending event for my 6TC. Doing the clutch, the turbos, tune, and a few other goodies - along with the welds - is gonna take a while. Not happy about that. BUT...

...I have another Porsche joining my stable in the next few weeks so I'll live.

Cheers, gang. Stay tuned.
-V

excellent reportage of a nasty event/issue. i applaud your efforts, and like your style. i think you might actually prevail but am not sure anyone has ever gotten pcna to pony up unless it was mandated somehow, outside of warranty. but go get 'em and pls keep us updated. cheers.

UPDATE: Contacted by NHTSA
 

I received an email today from an investigator with the NHTSA regarding my report. He requested the photographs and asked whether the cause of the leak was confirmed.

I supplied the photos, as well as confirmation that the leak was due to the failure of the adhesive used by the manufacturer to join the coolant hoses. This was confirmed by an independent Porsche mechanic as well as an authorized Porsche technician with whom the mechanic consults.

The investigator and I are having a followup conversation later today.
-V

Here is the email thread I shared with the NHTSA investigator today. It reads top-down newest to oldest like your typical email.
Names and contact information have been changed to protect privacy.

I am impressed with the investigator. He was articulate and well-versed with the issue. This gives me hope that the problem will be addressed because let's face it, this problem could easily cause someone to be killed or badly injured. There's no need for that to happen if owners are made aware and the problem is fixed model-wide.

Stay tuned,
-V

Vendetta,

Thank you very much for the information and the help with our investigation. Your report is being associated with PE13009.

John Doe


###

From: Vendetta
Subject: Re: Porsche 911 report filed with NHTSA, #10532180
Mr. Doe,

Thank you for taking the time to speak with me earlier. Is your investigation into my report being associated with NHTSA Action Number: PE13009? I believe they are the same problem.

Also, as we spoke about, the fact that there is no remaining coolant for the thermostat to read and report on once it's all been flushed is another challenge to the vehicle operator. The temperature needle will just sit there indicating the last-known temp, well within the safe range.

Aside from the rear view mirror, and perhaps the odor of the burning coolant (if the vehicle is brought to a halt), there is no way for the operator to know that the engine is going critical. A "low coolant" warning is neither uncommon, nor indicative of the urgency to turn off the motor at once. Especially when coupled with a temperature gauge falsely reporting a safe engine temperature. It's a very dangerous scenario.

Please advise how can I be kept up to date on the progress in your investigation, as it now affects me personally.

If you need any further information, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Kind regards,
-Vendetta

###

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 2:55 PM, Vendetta wrote:
Mr. Doe,

Thank for you contacting me regarding my report. It is reassuring to me that investigators such as yourself recognize both the dangers associated with this growing failure as well as the importance in addressing it - hopefully before a tragedy.

I am attaching the photographs taken at the scene. They are in the numerical order in which they were taken. The first photograph shows the trail of coolant leading up to the point in the roadway where I brought the car to a halt, prior to backing onto the side street where I awaited help. You will see from the coolant trail that I was driving in the left lane, and then shifted to the right lane where I brought the car to a halt. I shifted lanes when I noticed the vapor trail in the rear view. When I brought the car to a halt, I smelled the burning coolant. And that's when I reversed on to the side street and shut down.

The subsequent pictures document the trail of leaked coolant in additional detail, including just how voluminous and expedient of a coolant purge this was. I can provide higher resolution images if needed.

The cause of the leak has been confirmed as a failure of the adhesive used by the manufacturer, causing a separation of hose from where it was joined. This was diagnosed by an independent Porsche mechanic with over 20 years experience, and confirmed by an authorized Porsche mechanic employed by local authorized Porsche dealer who reported seeing several prior cases of this. His experienced suggestion is welding all coolant lines to prevent repeated failure.

I may have additional information that would prove helpful to you and your investigation, however I'm not an expert on what is helpful versus what is not. I will call you at 3pm ET and welcome any questions you may have for me at that time ,or any time in the future.

Kind regards,
-Vendetta

###

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:34 AM, John Doe wrote:
Vendetta:

My name is John Doe, I am an investigator with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration of the US Department of Transportation. I received the report you filed with us regarding your 2004 Porsche 911 coolant loss. Your report was very detailed, thank you for taking the time to file it with us. I would very much like to have copies of the photographs you mentioned in your report if you could please e-mail/fax/send them to me. Have you had the cause of the coolant leak diagnosed yet? Is there anything else you can tell me would be helpful in understanding the problem you experienced?

John Doe
Federal Investigator, U.S. DOT
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
Office of Defects Investigation
(Additional contact information removed)

freakin' awesome. i'd sure want you to be the lead plaintiff in a class action, given your attention to detail and ability to articulate and pinpoint the cause of this potentially catastrophic failure... and the guy fawkes mask would just give them fits! lol

Thanks man. If Porsche doesn't address the issue, compelled by the NHTSA or otherwise, I would absolutely pursue a class-action lawsuit. No question. As important as the financial implications are, the real threat to life and limb is far more serious. I'll say it again, if I weren't a member here or otherwise unfamiliar with the potential for this issue, I'd have kept driving home with what I thought was just a need to add a little coolant. That means exit ramps at speed on coolant-soaked tires (hello, ditch); possible engine fire; Lord knows what else I can't imagine.

It's really messed up!
-V

i'm sure this is the one and only time i can speak for anyone besides myself in here when i say, "we" support you.

My coolant fittings blew at speed (approx 120mph) on a race track (with curves). I didn't have a problem of coolant soaking the tires. I don't see how that could happen. Don't get me wrong, the situation sucks for sure.