Searching for STOCK BLOCK potential for the 996 tt
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O.o When I was talking to Jason over at PROefi he said that the cost was about "30"-"25"… I'm assuming the "25" was $2,500 - $3,000. I'm hoping that is exactly what FSR will be quoting me for the kit. Hoping they show some love on the install as well. Will post quote as soon as its in
Last edited by iSeeMax; Dec 19, 2013 at 12:33 AM.
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MAXIMUM "RETAIL" pricing directly from PROefi without specials or pricing discounts…
Kit Needed for @700-800
$2230 ecu
$319 flex fuel sensor
$406 exhaust back pressure x2
$14 sensor 150 psi
$145 clutch sensor
$49 air temp
$99 boost controller solenoid
$1623 harness
$288 o2 sensors x2
$412 cam cable kit
$270 EGT sensor (exhaust temp sensor)
$1129 4.5" Display Data Logger (possible deals on data logger or included)
Contact/Source of pricing: Curt@PROefi
Kit Needed for @700-800
$2230 ecu
$319 flex fuel sensor
$406 exhaust back pressure x2
$14 sensor 150 psi
$145 clutch sensor
$49 air temp
$99 boost controller solenoid
$1623 harness
$288 o2 sensors x2
$412 cam cable kit
$270 EGT sensor (exhaust temp sensor)
$1129 4.5" Display Data Logger (possible deals on data logger or included)
Contact/Source of pricing: Curt@PROefi
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now if doing a build HP then i can see going that route.and i would deffinatley do a motor build before pro efi.
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im with you on this too...it cant change cylinder pressure, yeah you can tune the torque down a bit , but a good tuner can do that also on stock dme, the only really good things i see about it , is the flex fuel ability and the traction control. anything bellow 800whp i dont see i need for it , you can do that on stock dme.
now if doing a build HP then i can see going that route.and i would deffinatley do a motor build before pro efi.
now if doing a build HP then i can see going that route.and i would deffinatley do a motor build before pro efi.
Exactly...
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The ProEFI, or any EMS, won't be able to save your motor once they start to bend unless you have the necessary sensors and failsafes installed.
Here's a recent post from Prodigymb detailing the benefits of the ProEFI (or any standalone) vs. Stock DME Tuning/Electronic Boost controller
you get one a proefi when you want o maximize your setup and have the ECU that actually still has control of what is going on vs a hardware setup that fools the stock ECU to make some power.
factory 996tt MAF is maxed out before 600whp so you are using whatever the last values were in that table and the ECU doesnt actually see the real amont of air. so basically the MAF is only good for driveability, idle and crossover into boos at this pont. the factory 996tt ECU can NOT be tuned on true speed density, only Alpha N.
factory 2.5bar MAP sensor is maxed out at 1.5bar (22psi) of boost. So once again the car doesnt know how much boost you are really running and the last boost value is 22. 22psi of boost on K16s is not same amount of air as 22psi of boost from Alpha30s. What if you run 30 or 35 psi
So now your ECU doesnt know how much air you are moving and how much boost its running. It still has Bank 1 and Bank 2 knock sensor inputs ( not individual per cyl) and Bank 1 and Bank 2 widebands. The wideband o2 feeedback correction is not fast enough in the factory ECU to prevent a problem and at this point is basically the only feed back you have that computer still sees in full range.
Air /fuel mixture is after the fact tho !! Lots of guess work.
This is just scratching the surface. Then you get things like flexfuel, octane selection, tunable preset boost curves and launch techniques set up for differnet conditions, real boost of the line launch control, traction control that works, ignition control for aftermarket coils, staged fuel pump control so all of your pumps are not constantly running and heating the fuel up when not necessary.
It is expensive to do a standalone but I've seen people here spend more on coilovers, body kits and wheels.
factory 996tt MAF is maxed out before 600whp so you are using whatever the last values were in that table and the ECU doesnt actually see the real amont of air. so basically the MAF is only good for driveability, idle and crossover into boos at this pont. the factory 996tt ECU can NOT be tuned on true speed density, only Alpha N.
factory 2.5bar MAP sensor is maxed out at 1.5bar (22psi) of boost. So once again the car doesnt know how much boost you are really running and the last boost value is 22. 22psi of boost on K16s is not same amount of air as 22psi of boost from Alpha30s. What if you run 30 or 35 psi
So now your ECU doesnt know how much air you are moving and how much boost its running. It still has Bank 1 and Bank 2 knock sensor inputs ( not individual per cyl) and Bank 1 and Bank 2 widebands. The wideband o2 feeedback correction is not fast enough in the factory ECU to prevent a problem and at this point is basically the only feed back you have that computer still sees in full range.
Air /fuel mixture is after the fact tho !! Lots of guess work.
This is just scratching the surface. Then you get things like flexfuel, octane selection, tunable preset boost curves and launch techniques set up for differnet conditions, real boost of the line launch control, traction control that works, ignition control for aftermarket coils, staged fuel pump control so all of your pumps are not constantly running and heating the fuel up when not necessary.
It is expensive to do a standalone but I've seen people here spend more on coilovers, body kits and wheels.
The minute you go beyond the stock turbos, if you want to safely maximize your setup (not only maximize your motor, but protect your investment), a standalone EMS is the only way to do so. Regardless how great a tuner may be, they can only use the information that's available to them. And by switching to standalone, every piece of information can be made available to safely tune, in addition to setting safety nets that will protect the motor (limp mode) if it goes outside what has been defined as "safe operating conditions".
Last edited by Mit_Boost; Dec 18, 2013 at 06:00 PM.
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You realize that Switzer's R911 package is 900 Break HP (aka, Crank), and it's on a Race Gas tune. If you do the math, that's approximately 750 WHP, which is just about the reliable max of stock rods.
The ProEFI, or any EMS, won't be able to save your motor once they start to bend unless you have the necessary sensors and failsafes installed
The ProEFI, or any EMS, won't be able to save your motor once they start to bend unless you have the necessary sensors and failsafes installed
i would also like to say that given an unlimited budget (like layinback's build) an internal build is a given. i have to choose engine management or internals as i set a max of 20k$ for the entire build from turbos to management fueling , intakes and all tuning and labor.
as for the cost of the proefi vs labor cost my labor cost would have been 5000$ for the internals by a porsche master mechanic.(labor only) to spend more for a simple build is just name dropping to me
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The minute you go beyond factory turbos, you've exceeded the factory DME's "safe" tuning capabilities. And no matter how expensive a standalone EMS (ProEFI is "cheap" when you compare it to a Motec or Syvecs), it's going to less expensive than a replacement motor.
Here's a recent post from Prodigymb detailing the benefits of the ProEFI (or any standalone) vs. Stock DME Tuning/Electronic Boost controller
The minute you go beyond the stock turbos, if you want to safely maximize your setup (not only maximize your motor, but protect your investment), a standalone EMS is the only way to do so. Regardless how great a tuner may be, they can only use the information that's available to them. And by switching to standalone, every piece of information can be made available to safely tune, in addition to setting safety nets that will protect the motor (limp mode) if it goes outside what has been defined as "safe operating conditions".
Here's a recent post from Prodigymb detailing the benefits of the ProEFI (or any standalone) vs. Stock DME Tuning/Electronic Boost controller
The minute you go beyond the stock turbos, if you want to safely maximize your setup (not only maximize your motor, but protect your investment), a standalone EMS is the only way to do so. Regardless how great a tuner may be, they can only use the information that's available to them. And by switching to standalone, every piece of information can be made available to safely tune, in addition to setting safety nets that will protect the motor (limp mode) if it goes outside what has been defined as "safe operating conditions".
The limits of the stock sensors bandwidth is only partially true. For the MAF, one can always increase the diameter of the piping to scale its metering capacity, with an appropriate tune. And the MAP sensor can be replaced with Hitachi unit.
The issue of safety is again down to the tuners ability to leverage the hardware with the correct tune and fail safes. I'm personally biased but I trust the stock ECU's validated failsafes much more than most aftermarket setups - even at elevated hp levels, albiet with a properly done tune.
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He's referring to Switzer's Sledgehammer 997TT which made 915 whp (yes, wheel hp) on the stock motor. The car was sold to a customer in Canda and is still driven to this day with the same setup on the stock motor. The R911 package evolved from that car.
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After the purchase of the car I have another $20k I'm willing to play around with.
--I will also be doing the 997.2 headlight conversion (fenders/bumper) as well as swapping in the 997 side air intake vents so trying to have a little cash in consideration for that as well. Conversion kit is being sponsored so that won't cost me a cent, Dynamic headlights on ebay are $2k, Paint and install should run me $1400 for all the work including the side vents cut and flush mounted. Still need to find a techart kit (prefer used or a damn good replica) but if I have to I will wait on the kit seeing as how I will need a new clutch to handle the power
Power Goals…. 700-800 reliable whp
--I will also be doing the 997.2 headlight conversion (fenders/bumper) as well as swapping in the 997 side air intake vents so trying to have a little cash in consideration for that as well. Conversion kit is being sponsored so that won't cost me a cent, Dynamic headlights on ebay are $2k, Paint and install should run me $1400 for all the work including the side vents cut and flush mounted. Still need to find a techart kit (prefer used or a damn good replica) but if I have to I will wait on the kit seeing as how I will need a new clutch to handle the power
Power Goals…. 700-800 reliable whp
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Right. If you are looking to make monster power, with all the bells and whistles...stand alone is the way to go. Anyone buying a stand alone, for a stock powered car, or anything upwards of 700whp, thinking it can protect their engine better than the factory ECU is kidding themselves. I am done pouring $25k into $45k cars and losing my *** when I get bored. If you plan to keep your car forever...go for it...
.
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" you get one a proefi when you want o maximize your setup and have the ECU that actually still has control of what is going on vs a hardware setup that fools the stock ECU to make some power.
factory 996tt MAF is maxed out before 600whp so you are using whatever the last values were in that table and the ECU doesnt actually see the real amont of air. so basically the MAF is only good for driveability, idle and crossover into boos at this pont. the factory 996tt ECU can NOT be tuned on true speed density, only Alpha N.
factory 2.5bar MAP sensor is maxed out at 1.5bar (22psi) of boost. So once again the car doesnt know how much boost you are really running and the last boost value is 22. 22psi of boost on K16s is not same amount of air as 22psi of boost from Alpha30s. What if you run 30 or 35 psi
So now your ECU doesnt know how much air you are moving and how much boost its running. It still has Bank 1 and Bank 2 knock sensor inputs ( not individual per cyl) and Bank 1 and Bank 2 widebands. The wideband o2 feeedback correction is not fast enough in the factory ECU to prevent a problem and at this point is basically the only feed back you have that computer still sees in full range.
Air /fuel mixture is after the fact tho !! Lots of guess work."