So we all know that VW made a very big boo boo.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/28/news...l-two-minutes/

I know it's all still too early right now and VW AG is trying to settle it all out before we can really make a final judgment about the whole thing, but since Porsche is owned by parent company VW AG, do you think Porsche had anything to do with the cheating too?

Or, would you even think Porsche may have cheated with some other things, but have not yet been caught?

In your opinion does this even matter at all? Some would say, who cares if VW cheated, while others would say I wouldn't ever trust VW again if they were purposely this deceptive.

Let's hypothetically say Porsche was involved in the scandal, or even worse, Porsche deceived their customers claiming "Porsche XXX can do this and achieve this" but later find out that Porsche purposely knew it doesn't.
Would you keep supporting Porsche?

I'm pretty bummed that VW did this and yes, eventually things will turn around with a full corporate restructuring, but it still will kind of always stick in the back of your head. I can only imagine that there are some people out there who bought their VW TDI solely for the purpose of being environmentally conscious and was a real big time "tree hugger" (not that there is anything wrong with being a tree hugger). And now they are knowingly driving a polluting car 40x over the limit.

 

They may indeed be. Cross pollination between the software engineers is feasible. That said, Mueller must have had zero knowledge or he would not have been promoted. Someone at VW with authority knew the software was jiggered. How high up? We may not know for some time.
Heard a Mercedes guy say this is not uncommon, VW happened to get caught.

 

I'm doubting Porsche cheated, they could get under the emissions bar without having to do so with their gas engines I expect. It was the diesels that proved tough to do without adding some of the added hardware that other manufacturers had been forced to use that pushed them to this. Give it time though, I expect other cheats will be found although perhaps not as bad as this - I've heard rumblings for years about cars recognizing the test! Porsche is mainly being mentioned because of the ownership but also because one of the engineers or managers involved went to work for Porsche but I'm doubting they cheated as a result...

 

Wow. That was a disappointing article - and that from CNN. Fox wouldn't have surprised me. "3 things you need to know..." and then there are 10 items with most having minor to major inaccuracies.

Porsche will likely not have any vehicles directly involved in this other than that the Head of Engine Development who came from VW, Wolfgang Hatz, had to leave. Gasoline motors are not an issue - diesels produce large amounts of NOx and particulates (soot). Large, powerful diesels, such as those in Porsche's RoW vehicles generally aren't problematic either because the emissions tests are performed at low throttle with these motors an the fueling can be kept to a minimum thus producing less emissions. Small, highly tuned diesels feel anemic when the fueling is such that emissions are optimized and these cars would be unattractive for customers. So VW, like virtually every car manufacturer regardless if American, Japanese, European, or whatever optimized the motors for emissions testing and optimized the motors again for real world driving.

No biggie except that VW went a step further than everyone else (who has been caught, anyway). While all vehicles are optimized for emissions in the conditions encountered during the city and hwy cycles during testing, VW had the vehicles' software positively identify when the car was on a dyno. No input to the steering angle sensor and other dynamic stability control sensors (accelerometers, etc) while the car is being driven meant the car was on a dyno.

All cars produce considerably more emissions in RL than during emissions testing, but that was considered ok. A car that is cleaner on the dyno is cleaner in RL - even if it's not as clean as on the dyno. Compare it to performance oriented scenarios: a vehicle that has 550 hp on a dyno may not actually have 550hp in RL, but in a real world environment should still be quicker than a 420 hp car. A car with SW that automatically adjusts boost up by several 10ths bar on a dyno is cheating.

 

People who bought diesels did so for MPG for the most part, which is what they got. If I was looking for MPG I would still buy a TDI with out hesitation.

 

ya, but the chipped fsi turbo is much more funner lol

 

I guess this deception doesn't matter for most people as it sounds like people really aren't concerned about the environment as long as their needs are met (ie as long as I get my mpg and power I don't care if it pollutes more).

I'm no hippie and we all have our personal opinions, but I'd like to do my part as small as it may be to help preserve the earth we live in for our future generations. if it means complying with the regulations, then so be it.

I'm a big car guy and love Motorsports and understand my hobby plays a role in pollution, but if I can minimize the footprint it leaves on the environment then I'll try to do so.

Obviously I can't enforce those same beliefs on other people. Just the other day the topic came up in the doc's lounge about global warming. Someone mentioned "who cares, I'll be long gone by the time it gets that bad." I just smiled and thought to myself, its a selfish attitude but that person has every right to think they way they want to think. Just like I have a right to think we should not be so selfish and probably look out for the future generations when we're all long gone.

 

I think the issue is "Diesel". With todays newer, stringent smog laws (to those of us who have them), I think it is nearly impossible for any diesel to pass emissions without some sort of diesel exhaust fluid (DEF, DefBlu, Adblue, etc...). We almost bought a 2012 Passat TDI a few years ago, but my wife really wanted the SUV, so we bought a 2012 Touareg TDI. We absolutely love it, 25-27mpg mixed, 32mpg on the highway. Way back when, I was pretty impressed that VW could build and market a TDI vehicles without Adblue, turns out...they can't. Too bad... I now have a brand new 2015 Chevy High Country Duramax that has the new emissions. Unlike our Touareg, that goes 15k miles on a tank of adblue, my new truck only goes 4k miles before the light comes on. And the regen cuts the mileage in half for the duration of the regen. Aggravating this emissions stuff....

 

The usa emissions stand ard diesels are insane. Way harder to pass compared to europe. Also much much cleaner than the gas emissions. I'm a big diesel guy and owned a diesel performance company for many years and it's gotten so bad from the epa coming down on all the aftermarket even that it's hard to touch anything legally.
What people don't understand is that the black stuff coming out of a diesel exhaust is actually cleaner than the clear stuff coming out of a gas motor. I don't think guys should be out rolling coal looking like idiots, but a proper tuned high hp diesel blows little smoke and is actually very clean emissions wise.

 

Yes, you're probably right that most customers bought the diesels for MPG, but this guy tried getting out of his TDI and no one wanted to have anything to do with it.

http://shiftcarblog.kinja.com/here-s...nda-1733924086

If you go to the vwvortex forums, you've got quite a few pissed off folks over there. And those are only the people who go on car forums. I wonder how the regular Joe-Schmoes feel about it. Certainly not happy when they found out their dieselgates are worth much less that they thought because of all this.

 

This whole thing infuriates me and if I was a VW owner, it may be my last. Also I may even sell it if I owned one. We are guests on this planet for a relatively short stay and we are to be good stewards while we are here. Exploitation, contamination, or otherwise misuse of its resources according to written statutes or general ethics is reprehensible and among the worst types of crimes that could be committed. All of us living on the planet could be somewhat effected by these selfish acts perpetrated for personal financial gain.

I have no reason to believe Porsche is involved. But I have not kept up on the relationship between German auto manufacturers as of late. In the past it was like a soap opera, never knowing who was in bed with whom and for how long.

 

As an owner of a 2K6 TDI that isn't covered by this I'm starting to wonder if the value has gone UP! Never mind the shrinking headliner that's falling down or the many dings and scratches

 

Is there a diesel cayenne?

 

true that! then, I'm guessing you don't believe the thousands of scientists that argue against the notion that man made particulates are having the impact the WELL FUNDED global warming ( carbon tax cap and trade anyone! ) liars have been trying to jam down our throats for decades now, while scientists have proven without any shadow of doubt ( from what i read ) that we are in point of fact entering and even already into what's being referred to as a "mini ice age". this is evident, and is obviously a source of great debate. but the sun cycles and periods of increased vs decreased solar activity that are the cause of this phenomenon are no longer debated(?!) the FACT the earth is rapidly cooling has little do do with some heat temps being broken in places, it's an aggregate, and our planet is rapidly cooling. give it a few more years and we may well have another Laurentide Ice Sheet across north america. so better watch out for those wooly mammoths, but i would't worry too much about your heavy throttle pedal input(s). i call utter BS on all of it.

just another al gore get rich quick scheme and excuse to get us out of our cars, and into ( ahem ) "people"?! movers and bike to work.

hammer down to macon town, they all "get it" down there

 

Huh. Up until now I thought we were more or less on the same page. I've enjoyed your ravings on all sorts of topics - but you are completely off base on this one.

We do not need to discuss global warming - Rockstar did mention it but it was to express his disdain at people who do not give a shi+. His real point was that the dirty cars are making an impact on the environment. And they are. Diesel particulates and NOx are harmful. Period. And the diesel particulates can actually make much more of an impact where you live than where any of the rest of us do. I can only see them on their way out of a tailpipe.

That said, I am inclined to think that dieselgate is overblown. All manufacturers screw with emissions and nearly all have paid fines at one time or another. It is not impossible for VW to meet the emissions standards, it was just too expensive to do so during development in 2008 - so they implemented the software cheat. Let VW pay the fine and fix the cars and get on with it. All that will happen in the end is that VW will lose its competitive edge with its diesels. BFD.

There was a very patriotic (or possibly very well paid) market analyst on German TV the other day who speculated that the US automakers or possibly even the US govt was behind the exposing of dieselgate because they were worried about VW's diesel dominance on the american market. Bf-ingS. The only conspiracy in dieselgate is VW's use of illegal software. And the only conspiracy in global warming is in Fox news. Schmucks. They ought to send Rupert home to f-up his own country and stop f-ing up ours.

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:-))