997 tt owner says "but truthfully...."
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In short, the release of the 996tt did not **** off people who forked out all that money for the 993tt and likewise for 996tt owners when the 997tt was released.
Now, the difficulty for Porsche is that there are more competitors that don't have to "protect" the second hand value of previous customers' purchases.
Therefore, they can go all out to develop the best sports car that they can: R8(v10), Veyron, Gallardo(a few years old now), and more recently GTR , LFA.
I'm no marketing guru and it's a tuff one, but couldn't Porsche abandon "glacial incrementalism" to an extent that allows it to comprehensively dominate its competitors with their marquee product, the 997tt, but putting a lid on numbers?
i.e produce something like a 959 in limited numbers every five years or so?
Alternatively it could just continue to reel in the profits and increase its shareholding in competitor companies
and then eventually neuter them in the board room.
The saving grace in relation to the 996/997tt's is that Porsche has delivered a great platform for easily attainable and reliable power upgrades.
That's one of the reasons why I bought my 996tt.
Last edited by rafiki; May 4, 2008 at 07:46 PM.
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Agree.
In short, the release of the 996tt did not **** off people who forked out all that money for the 993tt and likewise for 996tt owners when the 997tt was released.
Now, the difficulty for Porsche is that there are more competitors that don't have to "protect" the second hand value of previous customers' purchases.
Therefore, they can go all out to develop the best sports car that they can: R8(v10), Veyron, Gallardo(a few years old now), and more recently GTR , LFA.
I'm no marketing guru and it's a tuff one, but couldn't Porsche abandon "glacial incrementalism" to an extent that allows it to comprehensively dominate its competitors with their marquee product, the 997tt, but putting a lid on numbers?
i.e produce something like a 959 in limited numbers every five years or so?
Alternatively it could just continue to reel in the profits and increase its shareholding in competitor companies
and then eventually neuter them in the board room.
The saving grace in relation to the 996/997tt's is that Porsche has delivered a great platform for easily attainable and reliable power upgrades.
That's one of the reasons why I bought my 996tt.
In short, the release of the 996tt did not **** off people who forked out all that money for the 993tt and likewise for 996tt owners when the 997tt was released.
Now, the difficulty for Porsche is that there are more competitors that don't have to "protect" the second hand value of previous customers' purchases.
Therefore, they can go all out to develop the best sports car that they can: R8(v10), Veyron, Gallardo(a few years old now), and more recently GTR , LFA.
I'm no marketing guru and it's a tuff one, but couldn't Porsche abandon "glacial incrementalism" to an extent that allows it to comprehensively dominate its competitors with their marquee product, the 997tt, but putting a lid on numbers?
i.e produce something like a 959 in limited numbers every five years or so?
Alternatively it could just continue to reel in the profits and increase its shareholding in competitor companies
and then eventually neuter them in the board room.
The saving grace in relation to the 996/997tt's is that Porsche has delivered a great platform for easily attainable and reliable power upgrades.
That's one of the reasons why I bought my 996tt.
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It's sad to say, but Porsche is becoming less about performance and more about its profits. It's to be expected with its success as the world's most profitable car company. Even Ferrari's CEO mentioned there's a few things that they can learn from them.
To date, I've been unhappy with the following:
-Release of a 997TT that didn't SMASH the competition: Early estimates and expectations of horsepower were not met (as an owner I really wanted over 500hp). On top of that, the suspension was made more "lively" but also slower, when compared to the 996TT. Ruf RT12's, which are 997's, still use 996TT suspension for their 4wd versions. They also use a modified 996TT engine (without VTG) to reach the desired boost levels. I guess I can understand the sensitivity of Porsche copying Ruf, but I really think the choices for the 997TT should be re-evaluated.
-Cayman hardtop costs more than its equivalent Boxster sibling, and is the ONLY car that has a price set up as such, despite having equal horsepower.
-Model range hierarchy is no longer competitive with the power it offers against its competitors: z4 hp > Boxster hp, m3/c63/rs4 hp> base Carrera, Corvette hp > 997TT hp.
-All resources and development is being deployed towards Porsche's newest model: the 4 door Panamera! Too bad it doesn't look like the concept picture. The Fisker Karma does a better job.
Oh well, at least the facelifted 997s have PDK, DFI, and Bluetooth, finally. I'll try to stay happy until I see the next turbo engine (which may or may not be wet sump
)
To date, I've been unhappy with the following:
-Release of a 997TT that didn't SMASH the competition: Early estimates and expectations of horsepower were not met (as an owner I really wanted over 500hp). On top of that, the suspension was made more "lively" but also slower, when compared to the 996TT. Ruf RT12's, which are 997's, still use 996TT suspension for their 4wd versions. They also use a modified 996TT engine (without VTG) to reach the desired boost levels. I guess I can understand the sensitivity of Porsche copying Ruf, but I really think the choices for the 997TT should be re-evaluated.
-Cayman hardtop costs more than its equivalent Boxster sibling, and is the ONLY car that has a price set up as such, despite having equal horsepower.
-Model range hierarchy is no longer competitive with the power it offers against its competitors: z4 hp > Boxster hp, m3/c63/rs4 hp> base Carrera, Corvette hp > 997TT hp.
-All resources and development is being deployed towards Porsche's newest model: the 4 door Panamera! Too bad it doesn't look like the concept picture. The Fisker Karma does a better job.
Oh well, at least the facelifted 997s have PDK, DFI, and Bluetooth, finally. I'll try to stay happy until I see the next turbo engine (which may or may not be wet sump
)
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Agree.
In short, the release of the 996tt did not **** off people who forked out all that money for the 993tt and likewise for 996tt owners when the 997tt was released.
Now, the difficulty for Porsche is that there are more competitors that don't have to "protect" the second hand value of previous customers' purchases.
Therefore, they can go all out to develop the best sports car that they can: R8(v10), Veyron, Gallardo(a few years old now), and more recently GTR , LFA.
I'm no marketing guru and it's a tuff one, but couldn't Porsche abandon "glacial incrementalism" to an extent that allows it to comprehensively dominate its competitors with their marquee product, the 997tt, but putting a lid on numbers?
i.e produce something like a 959 in limited numbers every five years or so?
Alternatively it could just continue to reel in the profits and increase its shareholding in competitor companies
and then eventually neuter them in the board room.
The saving grace in relation to the 996/997tt's is that Porsche has delivered a great platform for easily attainable and reliable power upgrades.
That's one of the reasons why I bought my 996tt.
In short, the release of the 996tt did not **** off people who forked out all that money for the 993tt and likewise for 996tt owners when the 997tt was released.
Now, the difficulty for Porsche is that there are more competitors that don't have to "protect" the second hand value of previous customers' purchases.
Therefore, they can go all out to develop the best sports car that they can: R8(v10), Veyron, Gallardo(a few years old now), and more recently GTR , LFA.
I'm no marketing guru and it's a tuff one, but couldn't Porsche abandon "glacial incrementalism" to an extent that allows it to comprehensively dominate its competitors with their marquee product, the 997tt, but putting a lid on numbers?
i.e produce something like a 959 in limited numbers every five years or so?
Alternatively it could just continue to reel in the profits and increase its shareholding in competitor companies
and then eventually neuter them in the board room.
The saving grace in relation to the 996/997tt's is that Porsche has delivered a great platform for easily attainable and reliable power upgrades.
That's one of the reasons why I bought my 996tt.
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I won't go off on another tirade on what I expect of the next generation of 911TT, 911 GT2, or GT1(CGT replacement) and what it should be like - but needless to say, it had better leave the competition in the dust in the same fashion that the 959 & 993 did. Anything less, well...there could be plenty of alternatives to choose from.
Last edited by Zeus; May 5, 2008 at 10:34 PM.
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I keep hearing top of the performance world, are you guys listening to what your saying? Think about the 1/4 mile, the ONLY cars faster than the 997 TT are :
Z06 - 500 hp - 3100 lbs (ZR-1)
08' Viper - 600 hp - 3400 lbs (ACR)
Ford GT - 550 hp - 3300 lbs
(Note- I did not include the GT-R because it has no run faster than 11.4 which the TT has run, and has been proven that the TT is faster in straight line after 100 mph where they are relatively equal up to that point)
After that you have to go WAY up in price to beat it. And I'm sorry but the Viper since it's inception would smash any Porsche Turbo in the 1/4 mile, the RT10 and GTS will KILL a 993 TT at anything. And now Corvette is on the same level of viper or better. And if you expect the TT to keep up with the likes of and ACR or ZR-1 you're smoking and there would be NO ROOM AT ALL FOR THE GT2.
It was much easier to be at the top of the performance world 10-15 years ago.
If you want to buy something else because of the magazines you are reading, then go ahead, but if you arent out driving it for yourself to find out then that's just pretty shallow.
Z06 - 500 hp - 3100 lbs (ZR-1)
08' Viper - 600 hp - 3400 lbs (ACR)
Ford GT - 550 hp - 3300 lbs
(Note- I did not include the GT-R because it has no run faster than 11.4 which the TT has run, and has been proven that the TT is faster in straight line after 100 mph where they are relatively equal up to that point)
After that you have to go WAY up in price to beat it. And I'm sorry but the Viper since it's inception would smash any Porsche Turbo in the 1/4 mile, the RT10 and GTS will KILL a 993 TT at anything. And now Corvette is on the same level of viper or better. And if you expect the TT to keep up with the likes of and ACR or ZR-1 you're smoking and there would be NO ROOM AT ALL FOR THE GT2.
It was much easier to be at the top of the performance world 10-15 years ago.
If you want to buy something else because of the magazines you are reading, then go ahead, but if you arent out driving it for yourself to find out then that's just pretty shallow.
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If you were CEO of Porsche what would you do? Profits or be on top competion wise? I would opt for the profits. Many new purchasers of Porsche could care less that it is not the fastest or most technological advanced performance car. They are buying the badge and knowing this Porsche would be stupid not to exploit this sentiment. Keep the dollars rolling in.
What I would do, is to ensure that my marquee product whips the competition at all costs, even if profits get shaved...you can reduce this potential loss by limiting production numbers. Any financial cost can be considered as part of research and development, not to mention invaluable marketing.
To my mind, that is what Porsche did with the 959.
I think that as far as the 997tt is concerned, Porsche marketing department input has overshadowed that of research and engineering.
The pendulum is overdue a correction.
However, on a positive note, in the 993tt,996tt and 997tt Porsche had developed an incredible platform that with some mods, would enable owners to remain competitive on the road and track for many years to come.
How long this will hold true is uncertain due to the increasing number of players.
The irony is instead of remaining a dominant icon that was produced in small numbers, Porsche has shown other manufacturers, that it is possible to sell a lot more of these GT Supercars than previously thought and do it at a handsome profit.
Guess what...every manufacturer now wants a piece of the action!
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Porsche should continue developing the 911 as they have for the last 40 plus years.
But, here's what else they ought to do...produce a killer Cayman. Say, drop the C-GT motor in it (it will fit) with LSD (of course) and obviously, DSG. Maybe a few electronic toys, but leave most of the driving to the driver. Oh, I would love a Cayman with 612HP!
But, here's what else they ought to do...produce a killer Cayman. Say, drop the C-GT motor in it (it will fit) with LSD (of course) and obviously, DSG. Maybe a few electronic toys, but leave most of the driving to the driver. Oh, I would love a Cayman with 612HP!
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I keep hearing top of the performance world, are you guys listening to what your saying? Think about the 1/4 mile, the ONLY cars faster than the 997 TT are :
Z06 - 500 hp - 3100 lbs (ZR-1)
08' Viper - 600 hp - 3400 lbs (ACR)
Ford GT - 550 hp - 3300 lbs
(Note- I did not include the GT-R because it has no run faster than 11.4 which the TT has run, and has been proven that the TT is faster in straight line after 100 mph where they are relatively equal up to that point)
After that you have to go WAY up in price to beat it. And I'm sorry but the Viper since it's inception would smash any Porsche Turbo in the 1/4 mile, the RT10 and GTS will KILL a 993 TT at anything. And now Corvette is on the same level of viper or better. And if you expect the TT to keep up with the likes of and ACR or ZR-1 you're smoking and there would be NO ROOM AT ALL FOR THE GT2.
It was much easier to be at the top of the performance world 10-15 years ago.
If you want to buy something else because of the magazines you are reading, then go ahead, but if you arent out driving it for yourself to find out then that's just pretty shallow.
Z06 - 500 hp - 3100 lbs (ZR-1)
08' Viper - 600 hp - 3400 lbs (ACR)
Ford GT - 550 hp - 3300 lbs
(Note- I did not include the GT-R because it has no run faster than 11.4 which the TT has run, and has been proven that the TT is faster in straight line after 100 mph where they are relatively equal up to that point)
After that you have to go WAY up in price to beat it. And I'm sorry but the Viper since it's inception would smash any Porsche Turbo in the 1/4 mile, the RT10 and GTS will KILL a 993 TT at anything. And now Corvette is on the same level of viper or better. And if you expect the TT to keep up with the likes of and ACR or ZR-1 you're smoking and there would be NO ROOM AT ALL FOR THE GT2.
It was much easier to be at the top of the performance world 10-15 years ago.
If you want to buy something else because of the magazines you are reading, then go ahead, but if you arent out driving it for yourself to find out then that's just pretty shallow.
<O
</OLooking at the numbers garnered by magazine tests, along with that seat of the pants feel I can attest that the difference acceleration wise between a 996 GT2, the "old" Viper, and say-an M6 were very much the same. But the Porsche won my heart for many reasons I won't go into here.<O
</OIf you compare the recent numbers by MotorTrend for the 997 GT2 and the GTR, well, the GTR just gets its *** handed to it. But only just if you compare quarter-mile times, which is hard to swallow considering you’re paying 3 times as much for the GT2. I would tend to look towards the magazines in the hope that they could be fair & balanced when it comes to generating numbers I cannot achieve outside of a racetrack. No one who actually drives these cars needs a magazine to tell them which one feels better, is bolted together better, or which one may last longer… The point being is that the competition in this bracket is getting really close.<O
</OThe sheer fact that there have been such heated discussions on this forum and many others is a testament to the fact that when all is said & done with the testing, performance #’s, seat-of-pants feel, and private owners tracking these cars: If you’re spending $210,000+ on a new GT2 and you line up someday with a kid in a $70,000 GTR - stock for stock - and he is even CLOSE to you in a race; then it is time for Porsche to engineer a better product and take a little less profit by engineering more performance with better materials into their “Halo” vehicles. We(I) just want to support a company whose products I feel are superior and should stay superior to the others-if they are going to cost me more. And when I mean superior, I don’t mean just enough to barely beat the competition. If Nissan engineers a suspension component out of Aluminum, Porsche should engineer its components from Titanium, if Lexus engineers it’s transmission gears from hardened steel, then Porsche should engineer theirs from a Ceramic-Carbon Nitride composite, etc. Sorry but life is short, and I struggle to make every dollar. I’m old school I know. I just want the best money can buy, and I will buy it IF it is clearly better.<O
</OI personally believe the next GT2 should slot into a market of its own between the upcoming LF-A, V-Spec, ZR-1 and the upcoming Enzo and CGT replacements.<O</O
Last edited by Zeus; May 6, 2008 at 01:26 PM.
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It sounds like you are mildly educated, but you completely missed the point. All porsche owners agree that there is alot more to it than horsepower. We are saying that it is overpriced and underpowered. Furthermore, their profit margin is the highest in the business telling you that they are overpriced. Your failed attempt to be cute at the end only showed me how little you understand about finance/economics.
Soo then go buy something else. That's the beauty of a free society.
Do you own a Porsche? I think anyone that does, knows there is lot more to it than horsepower. Always has been, always will be.
And just in case you weren't aware I'm going to let you in on a little secret..........corporations exist to make profits. Doesn't matter whether it's Porsche, Microsoft, or the corner deli. They each may have a differnet formula to get there; but in the end they exist to make money.
Do you own a Porsche? I think anyone that does, knows there is lot more to it than horsepower. Always has been, always will be.
And just in case you weren't aware I'm going to let you in on a little secret..........corporations exist to make profits. Doesn't matter whether it's Porsche, Microsoft, or the corner deli. They each may have a differnet formula to get there; but in the end they exist to make money.
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I keep hearing top of the performance world, are you guys listening to what your saying? Think about the 1/4 mile, the ONLY cars faster than the 997 TT are :
Z06 - 500 hp - 3100 lbs (ZR-1)
08' Viper - 600 hp - 3400 lbs (ACR)
Ford GT - 550 hp - 3300 lbs
(Note- I did not include the GT-R because it has no run faster than 11.4 which the TT has run, and has been proven that the TT is faster in straight line after 100 mph where they are relatively equal up to that point)
After that you have to go WAY up in price to beat it. And I'm sorry but the Viper since it's inception would smash any Porsche Turbo in the 1/4 mile, the RT10 and GTS will KILL a 993 TT at anything. And now Corvette is on the same level of viper or better. And if you expect the TT to keep up with the likes of and ACR or ZR-1 you're smoking and there would be NO ROOM AT ALL FOR THE GT2.
It was much easier to be at the top of the performance world 10-15 years ago.
If you want to buy something else because of the magazines you are reading, then go ahead, but if you arent out driving it for yourself to find out then that's just pretty shallow.
Z06 - 500 hp - 3100 lbs (ZR-1)
08' Viper - 600 hp - 3400 lbs (ACR)
Ford GT - 550 hp - 3300 lbs
(Note- I did not include the GT-R because it has no run faster than 11.4 which the TT has run, and has been proven that the TT is faster in straight line after 100 mph where they are relatively equal up to that point)
After that you have to go WAY up in price to beat it. And I'm sorry but the Viper since it's inception would smash any Porsche Turbo in the 1/4 mile, the RT10 and GTS will KILL a 993 TT at anything. And now Corvette is on the same level of viper or better. And if you expect the TT to keep up with the likes of and ACR or ZR-1 you're smoking and there would be NO ROOM AT ALL FOR THE GT2.
It was much easier to be at the top of the performance world 10-15 years ago.
If you want to buy something else because of the magazines you are reading, then go ahead, but if you arent out driving it for yourself to find out then that's just pretty shallow.
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this could be a little off the subject: as a first time Porsche owner, I love the car and definitely think the pleasure and fun outweights its price tag. however, from time to time, i was still surprised to find out that the workmanship and materails were really not what a $150k car should be. I am talking about the gaps of the cf central stack over the carpet, the flimsy looking hood with the sharp edges inside, and the cheap materials on the sun visors and so on. and as i just learned from this thread, how could they share so many parts with a boxster that cost less than 1/3 of the price?
Last edited by vig168; May 6, 2008 at 03:54 PM.
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It sounds like you are mildly educated, but you completely missed the point. All porsche owners agree that there is alot more to it than horsepower. We are saying that it is overpriced and underpowered. Furthermore, their profit margin is the highest in the business telling you that they are overpriced. Your failed attempt to be cute at the end only showed me how little you understand about finance/economics.
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Where did this thread come from?? It started out as a stream-of-consciousness drunken rant and has devolved into another GT-R fanboy lovefest.
Where the hell am I?
