Tire Pressure: How Low Can You Go?
#16
02-13-2011, 08:27 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Age: 62
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If the ambient temp outside in MD is like it was in NY, then the ride is going to be plenty rough. Summer tires 100x worse than snows in these temps.
#17
02-13-2011, 06:08 PM
OK. Guys more info to heat up the "nitrogen debate". I just spoke at length with my ex racer tire mate. It seems there is a lot more in it and to say nitrogen is a waste of time is utter ignorance and nonsense. He said try and find a group A race car on the grid without nitrogen....or a P cup car. He absolutely maintains that the tire pressure rise from temperature is very noticeable particularly under braking and hard cornering when the tire temps build up. He says with just regular air the pressure will rise much faster. He said tires with nitrogen run quieter and smoother than ones with regular air.....no question about that and testing has been done to prove that. In so far as ride difference there certainly is one as well.....again no question and their testing has proven that. (So im not imagining it RUF).
He said Bob Jane Tyres have done comparative testing down at calder park raceway and the results were conclusive between nitrogen and air. Nitrogen being far superior in all conditions than regular air. Tires is his area of expertise so i guess he ought to know what he is talking about and he is one of these guys that is extrremely passionate and knowledgeable with his products. He also does a lot of work for the P dealers here and has owned 911's himself (up until recently). He states for road use a 911 needs the recommended air pressures 37lb front 44lb rear on 19" tires or it will be all over the place. I have experienced this exact symptom myself when my own pressures were only down a few 1bs. the car feels unsettled and unstable. He said the pressures should always be set stone cold as well. And as they heat up during road use its not by athe temps will constantly fluctuate up and down as the tires cool after braking and cornering so its best to set the pressures correctly to the placard. He said 37 on the rear is far too low for street use on a 911 especially with the weight of the engine over the rear. He said its hard not to feel it squirm around when the pressures are off correct setting. Track use is a different story as the pressures will rise and stay there for much longer which is why you do a few hot laps....come in....bleed off the temps. R spec tires have there own pressure settings for track use but for street they are best being set to the recommended plate pressures as they wont produce the same temps during street driving. In so far as using nitrogen for street use there are distinct benefits including a quieter smoother ride, more stable temps and pressures, better wear.
Let the debate rage!!
He said Bob Jane Tyres have done comparative testing down at calder park raceway and the results were conclusive between nitrogen and air. Nitrogen being far superior in all conditions than regular air. Tires is his area of expertise so i guess he ought to know what he is talking about and he is one of these guys that is extrremely passionate and knowledgeable with his products. He also does a lot of work for the P dealers here and has owned 911's himself (up until recently). He states for road use a 911 needs the recommended air pressures 37lb front 44lb rear on 19" tires or it will be all over the place. I have experienced this exact symptom myself when my own pressures were only down a few 1bs. the car feels unsettled and unstable. He said the pressures should always be set stone cold as well. And as they heat up during road use its not by athe temps will constantly fluctuate up and down as the tires cool after braking and cornering so its best to set the pressures correctly to the placard. He said 37 on the rear is far too low for street use on a 911 especially with the weight of the engine over the rear. He said its hard not to feel it squirm around when the pressures are off correct setting. Track use is a different story as the pressures will rise and stay there for much longer which is why you do a few hot laps....come in....bleed off the temps. R spec tires have there own pressure settings for track use but for street they are best being set to the recommended plate pressures as they wont produce the same temps during street driving. In so far as using nitrogen for street use there are distinct benefits including a quieter smoother ride, more stable temps and pressures, better wear.
Let the debate rage!!
#18
02-13-2011, 06:45 PM
OK. Guys more info to heat up the "nitrogen debate". I just spoke at length with my ex racer tire mate. It seems there is a lot more in it and to say nitrogen is a waste of time is utter ignorance and nonsense. He said try and find a group A race car on the grid without nitrogen....or a P cup car. He absolutely maintains that the tire pressure rise from temperature is very noticeable particularly under braking and hard cornering when the tire temps build up. He says with just regular air the pressure will rise much faster. He said tires with nitrogen run quieter and smoother than ones with regular air.....no question about that and testing has been done to prove that. In so far as ride difference there certainly is one as well.....again no question and their testing has proven that. (So im not imagining it RUF).
Noise and comfort of the tire are dictated by the road surface, tread design, interior construction of the tire, etc, etc. Whatever provides the pressure, whether compressed air or nitrogen is not going to make any difference in the aforementioned dictates.
He said Bob Jane Tyres have done comparative testing down at calder park raceway and the results were conclusive between nitrogen and air. Nitrogen being far superior in all conditions than regular air. Tires is his area of expertise so i guess he ought to know what he is talking about and he is one of these guys that is extrremely passionate and knowledgeable with his products. He also does a lot of work for the P dealers here and has owned 911's himself (up until recently). He states for road use a 911 needs the recommended air pressures 37lb front 44lb rear on 19" tires or it will be all over the place. I have experienced this exact symptom myself when my own pressures were only down a few 1bs. the car feels unsettled and unstable. He said the pressures should always be set stone cold as well. And as they heat up during road use its not by athe temps will constantly fluctuate up and down as the tires cool after braking and cornering so its best to set the pressures correctly to the placard. He said 37 on the rear is far too low for street use on a 911 especially with the weight of the engine over the rear. He said its hard not to feel it squirm around when the pressures are off correct setting. Track use is a different story as the pressures will rise and stay there for much longer which is why you do a few hot laps....come in....bleed off the temps. R spec tires have there own pressure settings for track use but for street they are best being set to the recommended plate pressures as they wont produce the same temps during street driving. In so far as using nitrogen for street use there are distinct benefits including a quieter smoother ride, more stable temps and pressures, better wear.
Let the debate rage!!
Let the debate rage!!
The only REAL benefit of using nitrogen is to PURGE THE MOISTURE which will stabilize the rise and fall of interior tire temp and hence pressure.
I believe Cannga already pointed out that Porsche recommends 33/39 for 'casual' driving and 37/44 for a car fully loaded (extra 350kg if memory serves). I personally wouldn't deviate too far from those recommendations because I believe Porsche knows a bit more about it than I do.
Disclaimer: As stated earlier I use nitrogen because I get it for free...and because maybe there is some magic elixir that science hasn't discovered yet that every tire dealer seems to know about.
#19
02-13-2011, 08:10 PM
I continue to be amused and amazed at the anecdotal "testimonials" in support of Nitrogen. It is all nonsense.
IT IS A LAW OF PHYSICS. ALL GASES EXPAND AT THE SAME RATE WHEN HEATED. Call your favorite physics professor or look it up on the internet.
Except for the partial pressure of water vapor, there is absolutely no difference in the expansion rate.
So, if you filled your tires with air compressed from 100% relative humidity, and there were no water traps or filters in the compressed air system, the pressure rise from ambient to race tire temperature would cause a pressure variance of about .4 psi (in an average sized tire) compared to 100% pure Nitrogen. Four tenths of a pound of pressure. That's at 100% relative humidity, nearly impossible to achieve in any modern compressed air system.
The truth is that most modern compressed air systems have traps and filters that produce air as dry as the Sahara.
Just so you know, commercial Nitrogen is anything but 100% pure. It's closer to 95%. Then there's the problem of purging the air from your tires in favor of the Nitrogen. Vacuum chamber anybody?
PT Barnum was right. Every minute.
But if Nitrogen makes you happy........
As for me, I vote for the Chardonnay. But not in my tires.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology:
"Under equal pressures, all gases expand at the same rate. A gas expands by the same proportion as the temperature rises, provided external pressure remains the same. The effect of heat on the expansion of gases is stated in Charles' Law. A gas occupies 1/273.15 more space for each 1° C. rise in temperature and, conversely, 1/273.15 less space for each 1° C. drop in temperature. This fact enabled scientists to determine absolute zero (-273.15° C.), the temperature at which all molecules theoretically stop moving."
IT IS A LAW OF PHYSICS. ALL GASES EXPAND AT THE SAME RATE WHEN HEATED. Call your favorite physics professor or look it up on the internet.
Except for the partial pressure of water vapor, there is absolutely no difference in the expansion rate.
So, if you filled your tires with air compressed from 100% relative humidity, and there were no water traps or filters in the compressed air system, the pressure rise from ambient to race tire temperature would cause a pressure variance of about .4 psi (in an average sized tire) compared to 100% pure Nitrogen. Four tenths of a pound of pressure. That's at 100% relative humidity, nearly impossible to achieve in any modern compressed air system.
The truth is that most modern compressed air systems have traps and filters that produce air as dry as the Sahara.
Just so you know, commercial Nitrogen is anything but 100% pure. It's closer to 95%. Then there's the problem of purging the air from your tires in favor of the Nitrogen. Vacuum chamber anybody?
PT Barnum was right. Every minute.
But if Nitrogen makes you happy........
As for me, I vote for the Chardonnay. But not in my tires.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology:
"Under equal pressures, all gases expand at the same rate. A gas expands by the same proportion as the temperature rises, provided external pressure remains the same. The effect of heat on the expansion of gases is stated in Charles' Law. A gas occupies 1/273.15 more space for each 1° C. rise in temperature and, conversely, 1/273.15 less space for each 1° C. drop in temperature. This fact enabled scientists to determine absolute zero (-273.15° C.), the temperature at which all molecules theoretically stop moving."
Last edited by Tech1_Mike; 02-13-2011 at 08:17 PM.
#20
02-13-2011, 09:08 PM
Paul, your friend is correct in saying we'd be hard put to find a race car not running nitrogen...after that it's pretty much BS.
Noise and comfort of the tire are dictated by the road surface, tread design, interior construction of the tire, etc, etc. Whatever provides the pressure, whether compressed air or nitrogen is not going to make any difference in the aforementioned dictates.
I would be willing to bet you $100 (US or AU) that you couldn't tell the difference of between 1-2 lbs of pressure (compressed air or nitrogen) in your street car driven on the street. Most race car guys can't tell you the difference in lbs of pressure, they just know that a little more or less will make the car handle differently one way or another.
The only REAL benefit of using nitrogen is to PURGE THE MOISTURE which will stabilize the rise and fall of interior tire temp and hence pressure.
I believe Cannga already pointed out that Porsche recommends 33/39 for 'casual' driving and 37/44 for a car fully loaded (extra 350kg if memory serves). I personally wouldn't deviate too far from those recommendations because I believe Porsche knows a bit more about it than I do.
Disclaimer: As stated earlier I use nitrogen because I get it for free...and because maybe there is some magic elixir that science hasn't discovered yet that every tire dealer seems to know about.
Noise and comfort of the tire are dictated by the road surface, tread design, interior construction of the tire, etc, etc. Whatever provides the pressure, whether compressed air or nitrogen is not going to make any difference in the aforementioned dictates.
I would be willing to bet you $100 (US or AU) that you couldn't tell the difference of between 1-2 lbs of pressure (compressed air or nitrogen) in your street car driven on the street. Most race car guys can't tell you the difference in lbs of pressure, they just know that a little more or less will make the car handle differently one way or another.
The only REAL benefit of using nitrogen is to PURGE THE MOISTURE which will stabilize the rise and fall of interior tire temp and hence pressure.
I believe Cannga already pointed out that Porsche recommends 33/39 for 'casual' driving and 37/44 for a car fully loaded (extra 350kg if memory serves). I personally wouldn't deviate too far from those recommendations because I believe Porsche knows a bit more about it than I do.
Disclaimer: As stated earlier I use nitrogen because I get it for free...and because maybe there is some magic elixir that science hasn't discovered yet that every tire dealer seems to know about.
.1) Thats not what i've been told Ruf and apparently testing has been done to quantify the benefits by one of Australias most long standing and prominent tire dealer networks. He seems passionate enough with his convictions that there are tangible differences and i again restate his primary area of expertise...plus his racing credentials. In so far as the tire noise, he did say that a tire with nitrogen will heat more evenly across the treadwidth vs an air filled that will expand the outer rims which will cause a bit more tire noise.
2) No point betting me Ruf because it was only a few days back that i left home and felt my car was a touch unstable. So, 1 to 2 lbs maybe not but 3 to 4 i can certainly feel it. I knew straight away where to look. The pressures were rear 39 and front 34. So i went to the garage and filled her back to stock 37/44 and boy what a difference!
3) Well Ruf not from what ive been told. There are many more benefits other than purging moisture....including better tire wear, smoother running/ride, more stable temps and pressures at the limit.
4) With all due respect to can, i dont agree. I prefer driving my car on the street with 37/44 pressures cold (PS2) ANYDAY! If he is driving on ps2's using 33/39 then maybe that answers for why he said he felt his car was handling like a bucket of **** hence stiffening it up in other areas. Lets just leave that one as "each to his own".
. I dont want a war with Can over this.5) Well i too can have my nitrogen for free as well so i dont need to have a lend of myself that its doing things when it really isnt.
Let the debate rage on!!!!
Btw whats it going to hurt if the OP becomes the judge here by doing a nitrogen fill, setting the pressures at 37/44 and reporting back to us all here his findings. I can take it either way....it really doesnt bother me as im not the one with the ride problem. So OP are you up for it???
Its probably the only way this debates likely to be settled without violence
.I continue to be amused and amazed at the anecdotal "testimonials" in support of Nitrogen. It is all nonsense.
IT IS A LAW OF PHYSICS. ALL GASES EXPAND AT THE SAME RATE WHEN HEATED. Call your favorite physics professor or look it up on the internet.
Except for the partial pressure of water vapor, there is absolutely no difference in the expansion rate.
So, if you filled your tires with air compressed from 100% relative humidity, and there were no water traps or filters in the compressed air system, the pressure rise from ambient to race tire temperature would cause a pressure variance of about .4 psi (in an average sized tire) compared to 100% pure Nitrogen. Four tenths of a pound of pressure. That's at 100% relative humidity, nearly impossible to achieve in any modern compressed air system.
The truth is that most modern compressed air systems have traps and filters that produce air as dry as the Sahara.
Just so you know, commercial Nitrogen is anything but 100% pure. It's closer to 95%. Then there's the problem of purging the air from your tires in favor of the Nitrogen. Vacuum chamber anybody?
PT Barnum was right. Every minute.
But if Nitrogen makes you happy........
As for me, I vote for the Chardonnay. But not in my tires.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology:
"Under equal pressures, all gases expand at the same rate. A gas expands by the same proportion as the temperature rises, provided external pressure remains the same. The effect of heat on the expansion of gases is stated in Charles' Law. A gas occupies 1/273.15 more space for each 1° C. rise in temperature and, conversely, 1/273.15 less space for each 1° C. drop in temperature. This fact enabled scientists to determine absolute zero (-273.15° C.), the temperature at which all molecules theoretically stop moving."
IT IS A LAW OF PHYSICS. ALL GASES EXPAND AT THE SAME RATE WHEN HEATED. Call your favorite physics professor or look it up on the internet.
Except for the partial pressure of water vapor, there is absolutely no difference in the expansion rate.
So, if you filled your tires with air compressed from 100% relative humidity, and there were no water traps or filters in the compressed air system, the pressure rise from ambient to race tire temperature would cause a pressure variance of about .4 psi (in an average sized tire) compared to 100% pure Nitrogen. Four tenths of a pound of pressure. That's at 100% relative humidity, nearly impossible to achieve in any modern compressed air system.
The truth is that most modern compressed air systems have traps and filters that produce air as dry as the Sahara.
Just so you know, commercial Nitrogen is anything but 100% pure. It's closer to 95%. Then there's the problem of purging the air from your tires in favor of the Nitrogen. Vacuum chamber anybody?
PT Barnum was right. Every minute.
But if Nitrogen makes you happy........
As for me, I vote for the Chardonnay. But not in my tires.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology:
"Under equal pressures, all gases expand at the same rate. A gas expands by the same proportion as the temperature rises, provided external pressure remains the same. The effect of heat on the expansion of gases is stated in Charles' Law. A gas occupies 1/273.15 more space for each 1° C. rise in temperature and, conversely, 1/273.15 less space for each 1° C. drop in temperature. This fact enabled scientists to determine absolute zero (-273.15° C.), the temperature at which all molecules theoretically stop moving."
Hey Mike i wonder if one of the technical gurus from the tirerack can chime in and add something here?
#21
02-14-2011, 02:00 AM
4) With all due respect to can, i dont agree. I prefer driving my car on the street with 37/44 pressures cold (PS2) ANYDAY! If he is driving on ps2's using 33/39 then maybe that answers for why he said he felt his car was handling like a bucket of **** hence stiffening it up in other areas. Lets just leave that one as "each to his own".. I dont want a war with Can over this.
. I dont want a war with Can over this.Kidding aside -- no problem Paul. Just a comment: The reverse of the argument is what you are doing is over-inflating tire to compensate for a soft spring rate. May feel good but dangerous because of decreased traction as size of contact patch is reduced. I am aware you are adjusting to personal preference but in the same spirit as what Ruf_Turbo wrote, IMHO it could be dangerous to stray so far from Porsche's tire pressure recommendation. If you take a poll, you would find that among the seasoned "veterans" (kidding) here, you might be the only going at 37/44.
The softness of springs of Turbo is based on fact and professionals' comments -- not some amateur's (wait a minute that's me!) speculating. Seriously, anything I write is backed by extensive questioning of pro's - just PM any trusted tuner here, Paul, say Sharkwerks, and you *will* get an answer on this that's identical to my observation. Stock Turbo is relatively very soft, ok for Lexus, not so for a world class sports car; and you are over-inflating tire to compensate for this softness, which prob. is not a good idea. Alright, now could we please get back on nitrogen discussion and leave me out of this? LOL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...-turbo-12.html
Source: VERY extensive web research :-) and Excellence Magazine. GT3 rates are posted for comparison, and do keep in mind the GT3 is around 300 lbs lighter than Turbo, meaning if anything the Turbo's springs could/should be even stiffer than GT3's. Also, 997.2 Turbo's engine is lighter, making the increased spring rate even more interesting to observe. Anyone with more info please correct as needed.
Stock 997.1 Turbo:
Front: 206
Rear: 457 Linear
Stock 997.2 Turbo (new Turbo also has lighter engine)
Front: 206
Rear: 514 Progressive (342 initial, 514 final)
Bilstein Damptronic for 997 Turbo
Front: 340 Linear
Rear: 565 Linear
Helper springs 115 front, 145 rear (don't count towards rate).
Stock 996 GT3:
Front: 225 Linear
Rear: 550 Progressive
Stock 997 GT3:
Front: 257
Rear: 600
Last edited by cannga; 02-14-2011 at 02:48 AM.
#22
02-14-2011, 02:53 AM
Hey how did my name get in here -- very busy would you please leave me out of this?
Kidding aside -- no problem Paul. Just a comment: The reverse of the argument is what you are doing is over-inflating tire to compensate for a soft spring rate. May feel good but dangerous because of decreased traction as size of contact patch is reduced. I am aware you are adjusting to personal preference but in the same spirit as what Ruf_Turbo wrote, IMHO it could be dangerous to stray so far from Porsche's tire pressure recommendation. If you take a poll, you would find that among the seasoned "veterans" (kidding) here, you might be the only going at 37/44.
The softness of springs of Turbo is based on fact and professionals' comments -- not some amateur's (wait a minute that's me!) speculating. Seriously, anything I write is backed by extensive questioning of pro's - just PM any trusted tuner here, Paul, say Sharkwerks, and you *will* get an answer on this that's identical to my observation. Stock Turbo is relatively very soft, ok for Lexus, not so for a world class sports car; and you are over-inflating tire to compensate for this softness, which prob. is not a good idea. Alright, now could we please get back on nitrogen discussion and leave me out of this? LOL
Kidding aside -- no problem Paul. Just a comment: The reverse of the argument is what you are doing is over-inflating tire to compensate for a soft spring rate. May feel good but dangerous because of decreased traction as size of contact patch is reduced. I am aware you are adjusting to personal preference but in the same spirit as what Ruf_Turbo wrote, IMHO it could be dangerous to stray so far from Porsche's tire pressure recommendation. If you take a poll, you would find that among the seasoned "veterans" (kidding) here, you might be the only going at 37/44.
The softness of springs of Turbo is based on fact and professionals' comments -- not some amateur's (wait a minute that's me!) speculating. Seriously, anything I write is backed by extensive questioning of pro's - just PM any trusted tuner here, Paul, say Sharkwerks, and you *will* get an answer on this that's identical to my observation. Stock Turbo is relatively very soft, ok for Lexus, not so for a world class sports car; and you are over-inflating tire to compensate for this softness, which prob. is not a good idea. Alright, now could we please get back on nitrogen discussion and leave me out of this? LOL
Hey Can ..and welcome! It wasn't me that dragged you into this.....im blaming old mate ruf for that one....he is a very bad man . Its probably because he knew you will find the answers on the nitrogen and spell it out for all of us in your usual wonderful detail. Now we could always open up the suspension debate while were at it...you know i am good for a debate....but with OP's permission of course. But probably no point holding a poll on the pressures at the minute. I'm happy to be in the minority group on this one at the moment and stick with my dangerous 37/44 fill (and my comfy suspension set up) but thats mainly because the city driving im doing isn't getting my tires as heated up as id like.....even though i do try....whilst always maintaining the posted speed limit of course 
BTW Can my tire pressure placard has no warning but says the pressures are to be set at 20C ambient, cold. Now do you have any take on the smoother ride with nitrogen??
Maybe if you haven't used nitrogen you could be the guinea pig and give us your judgement?? We need a circuit breaker!
#23
02-14-2011, 06:03 AM
Alas, passion, conviction, experience, testimonials.
Lets see: Reduced tire noise, heat more evenly, expand at a different rate,
better tire wear, smoother running, more stable temps, pressures at limit.
Might as well add in increased weight loss, improved credit score, and enhanced male appendages.
There is no science to support any of the above. It is complete and utter nonsense. A magnificent marketing job that has now extended to the reaches of the great downunder.
Fill your tires with air, nitrogen, helium or hydrogen cyanide (careful!) and your car, tires, suspension and derriere will all perform exactly the same.
There is one performance advantage of Nitrogen. Your car will accelerate better because of the reduced weight of your wallet. This advantage is negated, of course, if you use a credit card.
In the end they are called Charles' Law, Boyle's Law and Avogadro's Law for a reason. It's science, and it leaves out passion, conviction, experience and, most of all, marketing.
Lets see: Reduced tire noise, heat more evenly, expand at a different rate,
better tire wear, smoother running, more stable temps, pressures at limit.
Might as well add in increased weight loss, improved credit score, and enhanced male appendages.
There is no science to support any of the above. It is complete and utter nonsense. A magnificent marketing job that has now extended to the reaches of the great downunder.
Fill your tires with air, nitrogen, helium or hydrogen cyanide (careful!) and your car, tires, suspension and derriere will all perform exactly the same.
There is one performance advantage of Nitrogen. Your car will accelerate better because of the reduced weight of your wallet. This advantage is negated, of course, if you use a credit card.
In the end they are called Charles' Law, Boyle's Law and Avogadro's Law for a reason. It's science, and it leaves out passion, conviction, experience and, most of all, marketing.
Hey Ruf. I'll answer you each paragraph consecutively if you dont mind.
1) Thats not what i've been told Ruf and apparently testing has been done to quantify the benefits by one of Australias most long standing and prominent tire dealer networks. He seems passionate enough with his convictions that there are tangible differences and i again restate his primary area of expertise...plus his racing credentials. In so far as the tire noise, he did say that a tire with nitrogen will heat more evenly across the treadwidth vs an air filled that will expand the outer rims which will cause a bit more tire noise.
2) No point betting me Ruf because it was only a few days back that i left home and felt my car was a touch unstable. So, 1 to 2 lbs maybe not but 3 to 4 i can certainly feel it. I knew straight away where to look. The pressures were rear 39 and front 34. So i went to the garage and filled her back to stock 37/44 and boy what a difference!
3) Well Ruf not from what ive been told. There are many more benefits other than purging moisture....including better tire wear, smoother running/ride, more stable temps and pressures at the limit.
4) With all due respect to can, i dont agree. I prefer driving my car on the street with 37/44 pressures cold (PS2) ANYDAY! If he is driving on ps2's using 33/39 then maybe that answers for why he said he felt his car was handling like a bucket of **** hence stiffening it up in other areas. Lets just leave that one as "each to his own".. I dont want a war with Can over this.
5) Well i too can have my nitrogen for free as well so i dont need to have a lend of myself that its doing things when it really isnt.
Let the debate rage on!!!!
Btw whats it going to hurt if the OP becomes the judge here by doing a nitrogen fill, setting the pressures at 37/44 and reporting back to us all here his findings. I can take it either way....it really doesnt bother me as im not the one with the ride problem. So OP are you up for it???
Its probably the only way this debates likely to be settled without violence.
Chardonnay is great but what about shiraz?
Hey Mike i wonder if one of the technical gurus from the tirerack can chime in and add something here?
.1) Thats not what i've been told Ruf and apparently testing has been done to quantify the benefits by one of Australias most long standing and prominent tire dealer networks. He seems passionate enough with his convictions that there are tangible differences and i again restate his primary area of expertise...plus his racing credentials. In so far as the tire noise, he did say that a tire with nitrogen will heat more evenly across the treadwidth vs an air filled that will expand the outer rims which will cause a bit more tire noise.
2) No point betting me Ruf because it was only a few days back that i left home and felt my car was a touch unstable. So, 1 to 2 lbs maybe not but 3 to 4 i can certainly feel it. I knew straight away where to look. The pressures were rear 39 and front 34. So i went to the garage and filled her back to stock 37/44 and boy what a difference!
3) Well Ruf not from what ive been told. There are many more benefits other than purging moisture....including better tire wear, smoother running/ride, more stable temps and pressures at the limit.
4) With all due respect to can, i dont agree. I prefer driving my car on the street with 37/44 pressures cold (PS2) ANYDAY! If he is driving on ps2's using 33/39 then maybe that answers for why he said he felt his car was handling like a bucket of **** hence stiffening it up in other areas. Lets just leave that one as "each to his own".
. I dont want a war with Can over this.5) Well i too can have my nitrogen for free as well so i dont need to have a lend of myself that its doing things when it really isnt.
Let the debate rage on!!!!
Btw whats it going to hurt if the OP becomes the judge here by doing a nitrogen fill, setting the pressures at 37/44 and reporting back to us all here his findings. I can take it either way....it really doesnt bother me as im not the one with the ride problem. So OP are you up for it???
Its probably the only way this debates likely to be settled without violence
.Chardonnay is great but what about shiraz?
Hey Mike i wonder if one of the technical gurus from the tirerack can chime in and add something here?
#24
02-14-2011, 03:37 PM
Alas, passion, conviction, experience, testimonials.
Lets see: Reduced tire noise, heat more evenly, expand at a different rate,
better tire wear, smoother running, more stable temps, pressures at limit.
Might as well add in increased weight loss, improved credit score, and enhanced male appendages.
There is no science to support any of the above. It is complete and utter nonsense. A magnificent marketing job that has now extended to the reaches of the great downunder.
Fill your tires with air, nitrogen, helium or hydrogen cyanide (careful!) and your car, tires, suspension and derriere will all perform exactly the same.
There is one performance advantage of Nitrogen. Your car will accelerate better because of the reduced weight of your wallet. This advantage is negated, of course, if you use a credit card.
In the end they are called Charles' Law, Boyle's Law and Avogadro's Law for a reason. It's science, and it leaves out passion, conviction, experience and, most of all, marketing.
Lets see: Reduced tire noise, heat more evenly, expand at a different rate,
better tire wear, smoother running, more stable temps, pressures at limit.
Might as well add in increased weight loss, improved credit score, and enhanced male appendages.
There is no science to support any of the above. It is complete and utter nonsense. A magnificent marketing job that has now extended to the reaches of the great downunder.
Fill your tires with air, nitrogen, helium or hydrogen cyanide (careful!) and your car, tires, suspension and derriere will all perform exactly the same.
There is one performance advantage of Nitrogen. Your car will accelerate better because of the reduced weight of your wallet. This advantage is negated, of course, if you use a credit card.
In the end they are called Charles' Law, Boyle's Law and Avogadro's Law for a reason. It's science, and it leaves out passion, conviction, experience and, most of all, marketing.
. Looks like all of us upside down Aussies have been totally hoodwinked along with all the Formula 1 racing teams, GT3 cup teams, Group A racing teams....so on so forth. Oh well, I guess us bunch of suckers are all wrong and you are right that nitrogen does SFA. Have you ever considered offering your words of scientific wisdom to the F1 boys? I hear they pay millions to get any form of edge over the competition. Love to hear their take on your theory. Should i put the humble pie in the oven for you now Mike? It may wash down very well with a glass of chardonay .
#25
02-14-2011, 04:01 PM
I love the "great" down under bit Mike....nice touch . Looks like all of us upside down Aussies have been totally hoodwinked along with all the Formula 1 racing teams, GT3 cup teams, Group A racing teams....so on so forth. Oh well, I guess us bunch of suckers are all wrong and you are right that nitrogen does SFA. Have you ever considered offering your words of scientific wisdom to the F1 boys? I hear they pay millions to get any form of edge over the competition. Love to hear their take on your theory. Should i put the humble pie in the oven for you now Mike? It may wash down very well with a glass of chardonay .
. Looks like all of us upside down Aussies have been totally hoodwinked along with all the Formula 1 racing teams, GT3 cup teams, Group A racing teams....so on so forth. Oh well, I guess us bunch of suckers are all wrong and you are right that nitrogen does SFA. Have you ever considered offering your words of scientific wisdom to the F1 boys? I hear they pay millions to get any form of edge over the competition. Love to hear their take on your theory. Should i put the humble pie in the oven for you now Mike? It may wash down very well with a glass of chardonay .I don't have to proffer any theories. I simply rely on the science. You should try it.
We make the McLaren Formula 1 wheels in our facility in Italy. The F1 teams use Nitrogen because forged magnesium has very little resistance to corrosion. The teams work hard to eliminate even the tiniest variable. So they use the nitrogen for their air tools, tire inflation, etc. If you asked them, they would tell you.
We also make wheels for NASA, JPL, Rocketdyne and the Japanese equivalent of NASA.
And we make wheels for the military, lots of them. Nitrogen is used extensively in aerospace and military because of CORROSION. It is a 100% dry gas, especially when you use 100% aerospace grade, unavailable to us mere mortals.
I just love a good debate.....
#26
02-14-2011, 04:25 PM
Well, now it seems we're getting personal.
I don't have to proffer any theories. I simply rely on the science. You should try it.
We make the McLaren Formula 1 wheels in our facility in Italy. The F1 teams use Nitrogen because forged magnesium has very little resistance to corrosion. The teams work hard to eliminate even the tiniest variable. So they use the nitrogen for their air tools, tire inflation, etc. If you asked them, they would tell you.
We also make wheels for NASA, JPL, Rocketdyne and the Japanese equivalent of NASA.
And we make wheels for the military, lots of them. Nitrogen is used extensively in aerospace and military because of CORROSION. It is a 100% dry gas, especially when you use 100% aerospace grade, unavailable to us mere mortals.
I just love a good debate.....
I don't have to proffer any theories. I simply rely on the science. You should try it.
We make the McLaren Formula 1 wheels in our facility in Italy. The F1 teams use Nitrogen because forged magnesium has very little resistance to corrosion. The teams work hard to eliminate even the tiniest variable. So they use the nitrogen for their air tools, tire inflation, etc. If you asked them, they would tell you.
We also make wheels for NASA, JPL, Rocketdyne and the Japanese equivalent of NASA.
And we make wheels for the military, lots of them. Nitrogen is used extensively in aerospace and military because of CORROSION. It is a 100% dry gas, especially when you use 100% aerospace grade, unavailable to us mere mortals.
I just love a good debate.....
If you have the close relationship with the F1 teams then perhaps it should be no trouble for you to get it in writing from them? Suely they would be glad to oblige you of such a simple request
.Now i have nothing against your wheels.....i quite like them. But wheels are wheels and tires are tires. So, wouldn't it be fantastic if we could get some feedback from the tire manufacturers which im sure you would also have a close alignment with?? They should have no problem obliging you on the back of the strength of your relationships. You see im not using nitrogen at the moment in my street tires. But if there is in fact no benefits (as you are having us all believe) whatsoever in using nitrogen in any wheel/tire application...(outside prevention of corrosion in F1 alloy wheels) then it would be great to know. Educate the world i say! I could have a word to the Michelin reps at the track days next time who offer nitrogen fills to the guys on the pretext that it has a number of benefits. I could explain to them how useless it is and it would save them from transporting bottles of the stuff to and fro the track. And the group A teams, cup teams etc...you say they only use it to prevent wheel corrosion??? I'd really need to see that one in writing Mike .
#27
02-14-2011, 08:41 PM
Well i haven't been taking anything what you say "personally" but if you have then sleep easy. I have no axe to grind. Now, if you love a good debate then lets get onto the "debate"...
If you have the close relationship with the F1 teams then perhaps it should be no trouble for you to get it in writing from them? Suely they would be glad to oblige you of such a simple request.Now i have nothing against your wheels.....i quite like them. But wheels are wheels and tires are tires. So, wouldn't it be fantastic if we could get some feedback from the tire manufacturers which im sure you would also have a close alignment with?? They should have no problem obliging you on the back of the strength of your relationships. You see im not using nitrogen at the moment in my street tires. But if there is in fact no benefits (as you are having us all believe) whatsoever in using nitrogen in any wheel/tire application...(outside prevention of corrosion in F1 alloy wheels) then it would be great to know. Educate the world i say! I could have a word to the Michelin reps at the track days next time who offer nitrogen fills to the guys on the pretext that it has a number of benefits. I could explain to them how useless it is and it would save them from transporting bottles of the stuff to and fro the track. And the group A teams, cup teams etc...you say they only use it to prevent wheel corrosion??? I'd really need to see that one in writing Mike .
If you have the close relationship with the F1 teams then perhaps it should be no trouble for you to get it in writing from them? Suely they would be glad to oblige you of such a simple request
.Now i have nothing against your wheels.....i quite like them. But wheels are wheels and tires are tires. So, wouldn't it be fantastic if we could get some feedback from the tire manufacturers which im sure you would also have a close alignment with?? They should have no problem obliging you on the back of the strength of your relationships. You see im not using nitrogen at the moment in my street tires. But if there is in fact no benefits (as you are having us all believe) whatsoever in using nitrogen in any wheel/tire application...(outside prevention of corrosion in F1 alloy wheels) then it would be great to know. Educate the world i say! I could have a word to the Michelin reps at the track days next time who offer nitrogen fills to the guys on the pretext that it has a number of benefits. I could explain to them how useless it is and it would save them from transporting bottles of the stuff to and fro the track. And the group A teams, cup teams etc...you say they only use it to prevent wheel corrosion??? I'd really need to see that one in writing Mike .However, I don't have to prove anything. There is absolutely no science to support a single one of your associate's claims except for the anecdotal testimony of a tire chain with something to sell.
Asking F1 Teams to support or refute any such position is unthinkable. They won't publicly support anything. And you will never get a scientist from a tire company to commit either, if you can even find the right guy to talk to.
I know for an absolute, irrefutable, scientific FACT that Nitrogen behaves like any other gas when used in a tire. With that scientific PROOF, anyone can deduce that the claims of temperature stability, ride comfort, tire wear and all that other nonsense is just a lot of marketing hooey.
However, the placebo effect of Nitrogen is well documented in these forums.
Sadly, I have no more time to invest on this subject.
Caveat Emptor!
#28
02-14-2011, 09:50 PM
[quote=Tech1_Mike;3123663]
No argument from me on that.
Dont know. But your call whether you were motivated to make the enquiry. As i said earlier if you have good contacts, contacts usually oblige, thats what ive found anyway. A simple question to them like "what other benefits have you found by using nitrogen other than anti corrosive" would have surely resulted in an answer of sorts....im sure of that. Even if it was just verbal it would have either confirmed or dispelled you own scientific beliefs. Anyways....
No argument there on that one. Ive come across only 2 genuinely technical people on tires in my life....the rest are just sales guys offer say so or heresay etc.
Yes but you've never put it to the teams to get their full response on that.
I for one dont know enough about it (nitrogen). Tires and nitrogen are both not my area of expertise but i do know there is theory and practice and depending upon the subject there can be different outcomes.
Your scientific theory has evidently missed a lot of folks in proffessional motor racing though as they all religously use it. Im sure there is more to the use of nitrogen than simple anti corrosive factors on alloy wheels as most of the wheels i see used in motor racing are lucky to see a tire on them for more than a handfull of laps before they get changed. Hardly enough time for corrossion to occur.
Well i guess there is a placebo affect on many things. Performance of Wheels included.
quote]
It'd be nice to apply caveat emptor to a lot of things Mike.
And, like yourself my time is precious so agree why waste or invest time in a topic you feel is a dead end. However, for a person such as yourself who would have to be closely associated to many knowledgeable folk in motor racing, tires etc I was kinda however hoping to have learned a bit more from you though than what you have currently bought to the table.....which is a belief based upon what you have read in the science pages on the internet.
Surely a few questions to your industry associates would have gone ways to clear up the grey areas and, you may have learned something in the process, even if not to do with nitrogen at all. Folks with attitudes that generally already "know everything they need to know" really arent likely to learn anything new. I'd personally like to think i can at least learn something new every day whether in my own industry or not hence i keep a very open mind to things that dont make sense to me. That way i can then make my enquiries so i can make sense from it.....in a bid to learning something new. Anyways.....
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Touche'.
However, I don't have to prove anything. There is absolutely no science to support a single one of your associate's claims except for the anecdotal testimony of a tire chain with something to sell.
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Asking F1 Teams to support or refute any such position is unthinkable. They won't publicly support anything.
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And you will never get a scientist from a tire company to commit either, if you can even find the right guy to talk to.
PHP Code:
I know for an absolute, irrefutable, scientific FACT that Nitrogen behaves like any other gas when used in a tire. With that scientific PROOF, anyone can deduce that the claims of temperature stability, ride comfort, tire wear and all that other nonsense is just a lot of marketing hooey.
I for one dont know enough about it (nitrogen). Tires and nitrogen are both not my area of expertise but i do know there is theory and practice and depending upon the subject there can be different outcomes.
Your scientific theory has evidently missed a lot of folks in proffessional motor racing though as they all religously use it. Im sure there is more to the use of nitrogen than simple anti corrosive factors on alloy wheels as most of the wheels i see used in motor racing are lucky to see a tire on them for more than a handfull of laps before they get changed. Hardly enough time for corrossion to occur
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However, the placebo effect of Nitrogen is well documented in these forums.
PHP Code:
Sadly, I have no more time to invest on this subject.
Caveat Emptor
It'd be nice to apply caveat emptor to a lot of things Mike
.And, like yourself my time is precious so agree why waste or invest time in a topic you feel is a dead end. However, for a person such as yourself who would have to be closely associated to many knowledgeable folk in motor racing, tires etc I was kinda however hoping to have learned a bit more from you though than what you have currently bought to the table.....which is a belief based upon what you have read in the science pages on the internet.
Surely a few questions to your industry associates would have gone ways to clear up the grey areas and, you may have learned something in the process, even if not to do with nitrogen at all. Folks with attitudes that generally already "know everything they need to know" really arent likely to learn anything new. I'd personally like to think i can at least learn something new every day whether in my own industry or not hence i keep a very open mind to things that dont make sense to me. That way i can then make my enquiries so i can make sense from it.....in a bid to learning something new. Anyways.....
Last edited by speed21; 02-14-2011 at 10:05 PM.
#29
02-15-2011, 12:44 AM
Didh't have the time to read through all the posts but I read enough to get the gist. Mike is right about the science and I don't think using nitrogen is going to make any difference in the daily tire's performance or ride except for some of the minor advantages that Mike pointed out, like maintaining pressure over time. As for race teams, it's just as easy for them to fill with nitrogen and since it maintains pressure better, why not? More importantly, there's no oxygen which means reduced fire hazard. Oxygen does facilitate corrosion so that is a valid concern.
#30
02-15-2011, 01:11 AM
Didh't have the time to read through all the posts but I read enough to get the gist. Mike is right about the science and I don't think using nitrogen is going to make any difference in the daily tire's performance or ride except for some of the minor advantages that Mike pointed out, like maintaining pressure over time. As for race teams, it's just as easy for them to fill with nitrogen and since it maintains pressure better, why not? More importantly, there's no oxygen which means reduced fire hazard. Oxygen does facilitate corrosion so that is a valid concern.
.PS. On the race team thing. Why would it be easier to use nitrogen?? Surely just hooking up a mobile compressor will deliver oxygen much easier than screwing around dragging bottles of compressed nitrogen around. I think there must be more to it hence me asking Mike if he could ask his business acquaintances for some detail to flesh out why they use the stuff.
Last edited by speed21; 02-15-2011 at 01:16 AM.