I am totally confused with these suspension parts:

(1) Lower Control Arms
(2) Rear Link
(3) Toe Steer Kit
(4) Upper Control Arms (Dog Bones?)
(5) Toe Links
(6) Trailing Arm
(7) Drop Links
(8) Toe Control Arm
(9) Bump Steer Kit

Several Questions:
(1) Are some of these the same things?
(2) What do each do?
(3) Which of these will be "suitable" for the road without affecting the harshness of ride?
(4) Which of these are components are to be strictly for track use?

I have been searching around the forums and the more I read, the more confused I get. Trying to see what components will be suitable for me (strictly road use) that will keep the car somewhat tolerable on the street.

Thanks!

 

The best single upgrade you can do to your car is the adjustable front and rear swaybars and drop links. They will make your suspension more responsive, reduce body roll, and allow you to fine tune the handling. Increasing front camber would be the next best improvement if you’re tracking the car at all. You can get about 1.2 deg of additional negative camber with front camber plates, or up to 2 deg more with a GT3 lower control arm kit (item 1 on your list). You can choose one or the other or both. The other item I’d recommend is a rear toe control arm kit (items 3, 5, 8, and possibly 2). They will eliminate the rubber bushing that is most responsible for rear toe changes during accelerating and decelerating. The result will be improved rear stability, especially during acceleration transitions.

Those are the basic upgrades for a hot street/track setup. There are many other additional improvements (listed below) that you may also be interested in, but they are not as effective as the main ones listed above. If your car is relatively low, you may want to go with the bump steer (item 9) versions of the toe links and the tie rods. They will allow you to eliminate the bump steer associated with lowering the car. The next most popular and effective improvement for removing rubber would be the rear upper control arms (dog bones, item 4). Next would be the lower control arm monoball ends in front and the thrust bushings, both equally effective. These monoball inserts will fit into the rear arms, but they can be one of the more difficult items to install.

That’s about everything, listed in order of relative importance. Everything you change is going to transfer a little more road noise. Each one alone isn’t very significant, but all together, they will add a lot of feedback. If your car is strictly street, I’d just do the items in the 1st paragraph. They are the biggest bang for the $. Hope that helps.

Ira Ramin
Tarett Engineering

 

Ira@Tarret posted as I was typing this.... You should probably just listen to him as he knows way more than I do about this topic.

I realize I am not answering your question directly...

Most of us want our TT's to handle like a GT3. The problem is the extra weight, AWD and inferior suspension components on our cars. Our cars are set-up with lots of understeer from the factory. So how do we get close to the GT3? Here is how I would approach it:
1) Define your budget.
2) Decide how you are going to use your car (track vs street).
3) Do you want to keep PASM?
4) Decide on the other parts to go along with whatever choice you make.

Your choices are:
1) springs
2) complete coil-over system - Bilstein B16
3) something more a bit more exotic (and expensive)

If you want to keep PASM you can either opt for the Bilstein B16 coil-overs or change the springs. Most of us have opted for the B16's but some (TTGasman) advocate just springs as being a lot cheaper and offering performance close to the Bilsteins. Some have gone with more exotic systems. For a mostly street car I would choose option 1 or 2 with upgraded sway bars.

Once you figure out which solution you want to pursue, then you can start thinking about all of the other components (most of your original questions) that make up your suspension. A good alignment goes a long way to resolving issues. Tires are important too. Decide on your tuner/shop, tell them your goals/budget, and see what they have done that works. There are lots of ways to get from point A to B with the suspension.

This is a great discussion:http://www.rennteam.com/forum/board/...lsTitlePortlet

 

+++1 to the above. For a "first person" account of what you are considering, I highly recommend you search the 6 for "Cannga". He's brilliant, down to earth, funny and an all-around great asset. He did a terrific trip down Suspension Lane some time ago, and his well-documented journey is exactly what you're looking for. Enjoy..

 

Thank you all for your very informative replies.

I should've given you guys a little more background info, but I didn't wanna make my initial post super long.

My TT already has H&R Sways and TechART PASM Compatible Coilovers. I'm also running Pirelli Trofeos.

As for weight reduction, BBS REs, PCCBs, Akra Titanium exhaust.

Definitely have been reading up, especially with Cannga's posts, which is where I found this:

"Drop link (the picture posted by Rennsport): Connect sway bar to the coilver. In my experience, makes car feel more solid, less springy, increase effect of sway bar, but also brings noise and harshness. I would say this is good for the track, and necessary for corner balancing. I had this in the past but now is back to the stock link because of less noise or harshness."

Ira, this was one of the first things you recommended. Would this be tolerable on the street? My current setup is still tolerable to me. I really don't want bone jarring.

Thanks!

 

I usually consider the swaybars and drop links as a packaged deal, but the majority of the improvement is from the swaybar due to the increased stiffness and their adjustability. Unless your stock drop links are worn and loose, you will see only a small amount of performance improvement from changing them, especially for street use. A good set of drop links with high quality rod ends should add very little (if any) noise. The rod ends should have Teflon liners and they should be preloaded to accommodate initial break in wear. Anything less will make noise eventually, and often right out of the box.

With your current setup, I’d suggest your next most significant suspension improvements would be from rear toe links, and then the rear upper control arms (dog bones). Change the drop links if yours are worn, and maybe consider going with something adjustable, if you’re going to track the car. If you track the car, you’ll also want to do front camber plates and/or the GT3 front lower control arms to get more front camber.

Ira

 

Thank you so much for all your help Ira! Very very helpful.

 

One more question. What about the front? Front toe steer kit something to consider for the street?

 

I would say not for the street. Most of the toe changes under load happen in the rear.

 

I agree that the rear would need the bump steer toe links before the front would need the bump steer tie rods. They are both more of a track item, for cars that are relatively low.

 

Anyone know if aftermarket lower control arms can be installed with my TechART coilovers with noselift? Will the noselift affect the lower control arms?

 

Older thread I know.
Excuse my ignorance (and the car I am wkg on is not a 997 but a lowered 996TT). In replacing all worn control arms I would most likely do the Tarett (from RSS I guess) rather than the GT3 adjustable.
In the rear, what are my options? I have been able to dial in around -2' camber in the rear, which for me is almost adequate. I like what you describe with the kit. Do I need one kit per side (in place of conventional control arm)?

Otherwise the car has H&R Coil-overs, front and rear anti-sways, TRG DLs, and is sitting at around GT3 height.

Thanks in advance.

 

Hi DB, first congrats on the very well modded car, starting with the Akra Titanium exhaust ! Second, my apology that I haven't followed the forum that closely and therefore missed this thread, which has some question about my posting in the past.

Third, about the Tarett drop links: My fault for not emphasizing this, but every comment on stiffness of any suspension component should be taken in context of the rest of the system this component is paired with. At the time, I most likely had Pirelli Corsa R Comp tires on, and was trying on very stiff springs. In that context, and used as a daily driver, the system as a whole was noisy and stiff and hence my reservation. But really the stiffness was caused more by very stiff springs that I was experimenting with and the stiff tires, not just the drop links.

Currently with Michelin Pilot Super Sport and the more normal spring rates, the "final" version of my car's suspension has the Tarett drop links as a permanent fixture and I recommend the Tarett Drop Links very, very highly: stiffer, more precise, more planted than the stock rubber links. The effect *is* considerable for something that is so easy to put on and off (ie totally reversible if you don't like it), and cost so little: Rear Drop Link . I have **no doubt** about this because I've done the comparison between stock and Tarett numerous times - the links can be installed at home so I don't need to wait for my tuner.

 

With respect to your other questions, I second Tarett/Ira's recommendations (Ira is among my most trusted sources of information). Also, not for you, but for others who are new to this, following are the steps I would recommend for those who would like to upgrade the Turbo in steps. For a track car, one would go all out, but here we are talking about a street car, I would advance the component one step at a time, at each step stop for a few months to evaluate the car to see whether you are happy with the handling vs. ride comfort trade off (there is NEVER a free ride in suspension setup):

Step 1.
***Coilover: Something like Bilstein Damptronic, or other versions of the Bilstein, like your Techart or TPC, IMHO is totally streetable.
***After-market Anti-sway bar: Set front softer than rear, to counter our 4WD's car tendency to understeer. I have GMG but there are a few good ones on the market: H&R, Eibach, TPC, etc.

Step 2. For those who want more precision, tightness, and thrill, and willing to sacrifice some noise and comfort.
***Drop links with heim joint - heim joint is metallic, as opposed to stock rubber bushing. Not too noisy or stiff at all and still totally street-able. This is where my car is and because I drive it daily, I don't yet want to move further on. Click Here to See Rear Drop Link
***Rear toe control arm Click Here to See What They Are Now we are starting to get serious: you are modifying the link of the suspension itself: more money, more expertise needed in installation, more maintenance in the long run. Of all the links, this is probably the single most universally recommended component. I might try it one of these days, but I am so happy with my car now that I am not touching it!
***R comp tires if it doesn't rain too much where you live and you don't mind the noise and stiffness. A must-try once in your life if you are serious about motorsports, but remember they are extremely dangerous in the rain.

Step 3.
Now we are definitely into "advanced" territory, mostly for a track car. Some of the stuffs people use that I don't plan to try because my car is a daily driver:
***Front Camber Plate: Only use this if you want more than minus 1 camber in front; I don't have it in my car because I don't track it. Large front negative camber is more for the extreme high cornering speed at the track, but there *is* a cost: you lose straight line traction and braking power. Click Here to See What They Are.
***Rear Upper Control Arm (dog bones), etc., etc. Just remember the Pluses and Minuses of all these links that replace rubber with metal: Positives: Solid links increase precision and make cars feel more "planted"/precise. Negatives: Increase noise, vibration, harshness, some more than others. Also, these are wear-and-tear items and need to be checked periodically and replaced when the joints become loose (metallic joints/links don't last as long as rubber/neoprene joints/links).
***Change to Stiffer Spring Rates: After all, this is what the coilover is designed for, to change your spring rates to taste. Only for advanced level tuner.

 

Hi cannga,
Thx for the great information on suspension for our turbo.
Power is deinitely enough for our cars but just need to improve on handling.
I've decided to go with kwv3 instead of bilstein
Question. What's the difference in effect of increase/reduce compression & rebound in terms of handling.
Thank you