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-   -   E85 + stock turbos? (https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/302138-e85-stock-turbos.html)

Chkmgnt59 03-08-2013 07:58 PM

E85 + stock turbos?
 
I'm considering what to upgrade next on my car, and thinking I might add e85 tune. What type of numbers do people see on stock vtgs with e85?

The car has a europipe and an apr tune which would be replaced by Todd's e85 tune. It is in the low 500s power now based on runs I've mave vs other cars.

2swoosh 03-08-2013 08:22 PM

e85
 

Originally Posted by Chkmgnt59 (Post 3789033)
I'm considering what to upgrade next on my car, and thinking I might add e85 tune. What type of numbers do people see on stock vtgs with e85?

The car has a europipe and an apr tune which would be replaced by Todd's e85 tune. It is in the low 500s power now based on runs I've mave vs other cars.

what State are you located?

Chkmgnt59 03-08-2013 08:29 PM

Dallas Tx. There is an e85 station close by me. Proto is 8 hours away so I'd have the work done remotely, no field trips to northern Arkansas for me :-)

We get real e85 about half the year, e70 the other half. Lots of local evo and gtr guys run e85 all year, and Todd told me the ecu will adjust between e70 and 85 on its own.

ikold 03-08-2013 08:38 PM

Can you simply change over and run E85 with nothing more then a tune ?

alwaysturbos 03-08-2013 08:40 PM

Good post/question. I'd say your gains would be considerable, especially if you normally run a 91 or 93 octane tune. I run a 100 octane Proto tune and also am interested in e85. It'd be interesting to know if anyone has encountered any long term negative effects running the e85 for a few years with the stock fuel system. (w the exception of larger injectors). Plan on adding the larger injectors for the additional required fuel unless Todd told you otherwise. Post results if you end up doing it. GL

xbox_fan 03-09-2013 01:22 AM


Originally Posted by Chkmgnt59 (Post 3789046)
Dallas Tx. There is an e85 station close by me. Proto is 8 hours away so I'd have the work done remotely, no field trips to northern Arkansas for me :-)

We get real e85 about half the year, e70 the other half. Lots of local evo and gtr guys run e85 all year, and Todd told me the ecu will adjust between e70 and 85 on its own.

I am planning the same but Im considering upgrading injectors at the same time.

I did run a E40 mix in my bmw 335i and the ECU learned from E10 to E40 over a few tanks of fuel.

twturbo 03-09-2013 01:36 AM

I run a E85 Proto tune & had the regular Proto tune before & can tell you it's like running 100 oct or even Ms109 for $3.50 a gal instead of $15.00 a gal,i've been running it for about 3 yrs straight with no problems at all.I have upgraded 63.5 vtg's & only did the injectors ( 83 lbs) but can tell you, it wants even more gas to maximize the E85 so you need to upgrade the whole fuel system for maximum gains.If you have a station close by like me it's a no brainer you can run regular gas in a pinch no problem, just don't hit boost.

Chkmgnt59 03-09-2013 08:37 AM

twturbo,
Has your car been on a dyno? Or any 60-130 times?

I might add the injectors like you said, but it seems with all the labor to swap injectors, the turbos need to come out too so might as well swap them at the same time. It might be nicer to my wife if I did the tune first, the injectors/turbos and retune later.. :-)

twturbo 03-09-2013 11:24 AM

Nothing current but soon as it's going in for some other stuff & needs the tune recalibrated for my new push through y-pipe & check with Todd but i believe you get several recalibrations with his tune so you can change to an e85 tune down the road like i did.

Chkmgnt59 03-09-2013 12:31 PM

If I get a tune it would be e85 - the car has an APR pump gas tune on it now, and it hauls. I just wonder if theres another 50whp left in the stock turbos on e85, or if I should just switch to the proto 65mm vtgs now +e85 to get well into the 600-650 range. Harder to convince the wife I need to drop 7k to do it all together than to do it half and half if there's big gains to be made on the stock turbos :-)

The Bogg 03-09-2013 03:15 PM


Originally Posted by Chkmgnt59 (Post 3789350)
If I get a tune it would be e85 - the car has an APR pump gas tune on it now, and it hauls. I just wonder if theres another 50whp left in the stock turbos on e85, or if I should just switch to the proto 65mm vtgs now +e85 to get well into the 600-650 range. Harder to convince the wife I need to drop 7k to do it all together than to do it half and half if there's big gains to be made on the stock turbos :-)

do you have any pbox numbers with your APR tune? specifically 60-130?

The best posted numbers with APR tune match or even exceed that with upgraded vtgs so I wonder how much improvement you will notice with E85 vs APR tune.

Chkmgnt59 03-09-2013 05:23 PM

Pbox is actually ordered, I'll get numbers in the next few weeks

Apr is an aggressive tune, but it can't Run the timing numbers e85 allows. It is 18+ psi, but timing isn't 17+ at higher rpms.

2swoosh 03-09-2013 06:47 PM

i've heard that with the right ecm with flex fuel sensor you can gain close to 100 lbs of torque and u don't have to worry about running out of e85 as the ecm automatically adjust your parameters stock turbos and injectors. There's a guy in Texas who does this for a living. He's got some great accomplishments under his belt.

The Bogg 03-10-2013 09:08 AM


Originally Posted by Chkmgnt59 (Post 3789521)
Pbox is actually ordered, I'll get numbers in the next few weeks

Apr is an aggressive tune, but it can't Run the timing numbers e85 allows. It is 18+ psi, but timing isn't 17+ at higher rpms.

understood...you will get better timing numbers but will you get better performance numbers? :D

yeah please post some performance numbers on the pbox with the APR tune such as 60-130, 60-100, 100km-200km and whatever else you can safely do. ;)

Mattym6 03-10-2013 06:19 PM


Originally Posted by twturbo (Post 3789129)
I run a E85 Proto tune & had the regular Proto tune before & can tell you it's like running 100 oct or even Ms109 for $3.50 a gal instead of $15.00 a gal,i've been running it for about 3 yrs straight with no problems at all.I have upgraded 63.5 vtg's & only did the injectors ( 83 lbs) but can tell you, it wants even more gas to maximize the E85 so you need to upgrade the whole fuel system for maximum gains.If you have a station close by like me it's a no brainer you can run regular gas in a pinch no problem, just don't hit boost.

so i can do an e85 tune without touching anything else ? no injectors ,no special parts as of now ? just e85 tune and go to the pump and fill it up ?

ikold 03-10-2013 10:15 PM

MattM6 I'm wondering the same thing...

Also wondering what is the best "bang" for your buck. E85 tune + what else

If I were to decide to do a tune + turbos what is the best setup out there and what does it cost ?

2swoosh 03-11-2013 06:13 AM

Pro Efi ecm with flex fuel install it once and it can support whatever mods you do in the future without limits. It did managed the fuel system of the Venom GT when it broke the world record 2-3 months ago and was on the blue Vette that cleaned up the house in Texas last year against a 1400 hp GTR?. No limit on its capability. I'm using it for my 1000 hp build for my 03 996 tt.

ViciousZ 03-11-2013 04:33 PM

I have e85 plus all bolt ons and modded vtgs by protomotive.. The car made 620hp on a mainline dyno. If anyone knows dynos...This is the heatbreaker of all Dynos. They say add 18% and its equivalent to a dyno jet.. That means my car would be 731.6 awhp on a dyno jet.. The car also trapped 136.7 mph in the qtr.

Fuel system is adequate for this set up with 85lb injectors.

For most people that would be good enough, but I am selling the vtgs and adding gt30s. stay tuned.....

:D

Motion 35 03-11-2013 11:27 PM

pbox
 
sorry too thread jack im looking for a pbox were did u get yours . pm please


e 85 is the stuff 65 hp on modfied challenger on race gas .

The Bogg 03-12-2013 02:26 PM


Originally Posted by Motion 35 (Post 3791258)
sorry too thread jack im looking for a pbox were did u get yours . pm please


e 85 is the stuff 65 hp on modfied challenger on race gas .

Dan from vividracing sells it.

The Bogg 03-12-2013 02:28 PM


Originally Posted by ViciousZ (Post 3790952)
I have e85 plus all bolt ons and modded vtgs by protomotive.. The car made 620hp on a mainline dyno. If anyone knows dynos...This is the heatbreaker of all Dynos. They say add 18% and its equivalent to a dyno jet.. That means my car would be 731.6 awhp on a dyno jet.. The car also trapped 136.7 mph in the qtr.

Fuel system is adequate for this set up with 85lb injectors.

For most people that would be good enough, but I am selling the vtgs and adding gt30s. stay tuned.....

:D

Impressive trap speed. Do you have the Proto 63.5 or 65 vtg turbos?

ViciousZ 03-12-2013 05:53 PM

63.5

Chkmgnt59 03-12-2013 06:14 PM

Vicious, when are you taking off your turbos and going GT30? Why GT and not alphas? And..... PM me what you'd want for them :-)

The Bogg 03-12-2013 06:48 PM


Originally Posted by ViciousZ (Post 3791892)
63.5

Wow again. I have those as well, but not with the extrude, did you get the extrude done? If you say no then I may have to make my own e85 out of leftover beer because I don't think my car would trap anywhere near that speed although I haven't checked. My 60-130 on pump gas was 7.2. E85 just isn't widely available up here yet.

yumaverick 03-12-2013 06:53 PM


Originally Posted by ViciousZ (Post 3790952)
I have e85 plus all bolt ons and modded vtgs by protomotive.. The car made 620hp on a mainline dyno. If anyone knows dynos...This is the heatbreaker of all Dynos. They say add 18% and its equivalent to a dyno jet.. That means my car would be 731.6 awhp on a dyno jet.. The car also trapped 136.7 mph in the qtr.

Fuel system is adequate for this set up with 85lb injectors.

ViciousZ,

What are your 60-130 times? If you had 65mm VTG's could you have made more power or no because the stock fuel system won't support?
Thanks

Chkmgnt59 04-04-2013 06:47 PM

Went ahead and had ToddK put a 93 tune and e85 tune together for me along with .2 intercoolers. 93 tune is nice, not quite as aggressive as the APR but thats a good thing. The E85 tune works on stock injectors, stock FPR, and it HAULS. I can break tires loose any time I want to up to about 100mph. Can't wait to put on bigger VTGs and keep pushing onward. I figure I'll be satisfied with 80lb injectors and 65mm vtgs on e85. Good 700whp there.

yumaverick 04-04-2013 11:14 PM

Are you using fenderwell intakes? Why did you choose .2 intercoolers over after-market ones?

Chkmgnt59 04-05-2013 06:06 AM

Stock intake.
.2 IC because all research I've seen of IAT and such by forum members shows nothing beating the .2s. Champion ICs might be nicer, but they've refused to release IAT test data for 2 years, so I refuse to give them business.

ikold 04-05-2013 08:38 AM

Do properly do an E85 tune it sounds like one needs to:

ECM tune (APR?)
Upgrade injectors
Exhaust
VTG's to 63.5 or 65
.2 Intercoolers (or is that not necessary)
Clutch? (is stock clutch able to handle the additional power)

Ballpark what the total cost of this for me.

Chkmgnt59 04-05-2013 12:21 PM

There's two options with e85.

550-600whp: Call this 10k or so all in
Clutch (any tune will require a clutch)
Tune (only protomotive or switzer can do e85. I replaced my APR with protomotive)
Exhaust

~700whp: Additional $3-4k to the above depending on vtg selected and labor rate
VTG
Injectors

Intercoolers would be an upgrade I'd do regardless of tuning or not. The .1ICs just plain suck.

Chkmgnt59 05-19-2013 11:07 AM

Continuing down the path of adding power - some packages are arriving early this week.
1) BBI Coils + plugs
2) Protomotive injectors
3) Protomotive 67mm VTGs
4) Front sway bar to resolve some oversteer issues I've had on track

All will be on the car this week and we'll be good to rip onward. I'll post new 60-130 times as soon as they're available. Expecting large gains in power over stock turbo+e85 as I was out of injector and thus only running 15psi from 5k onwards.

twturbo 05-19-2013 11:51 AM

[QUOTE=Chkmgnt59;3812785]Went ahead and had ToddK put a 93 tune and e85 tune together for me

So did Todd k figure out how to do this & how are you switching tunes ? ,i requested this but i've got one of his 1st E85 tunes & back then he hadn't figured it out yet ,i'm going to be doing a recalibration soon for an added mod.I currently can run regular gas if needed but without boosting & what size injectors are you going with.

Chkmgnt59 05-19-2013 11:53 AM

80# injectors. And no on-the-fly switching, I just have different maps that I can plug in and change using my laptop. Ideally I'd love a cobb accessport-type device (note to cobb- build one for porshce..) that could swap maps without a laptop, but its not available yet.

twturbo 05-19-2013 12:05 PM

Ok thanks & i know i can do the same ,but yes a switch would be great.

rix 05-24-2013 09:52 PM


Originally Posted by Chkmgnt59 (Post 3813068)
Stock intake.
.2 IC because all research I've seen of IAT and such by forum members shows nothing beating the .2s. Champion ICs might be nicer, but they've refused to release IAT test data for 2 years, so I refuse to give them business.

I'm trying to figure out what I'd like to do with my car for intercoolers. The new AMS setup sure looks nice, but $5k is an awful lot to pay for two intercooler cores and some ducting.

What did you do for the install of the .2 ICs? Specifically what I'm interested in is not having to hack up the existing ducting or use zip ties as I've seen most of the 996 installs do. Does anyone have any suggestions here?

Thanks,
Dan

The Bogg 05-25-2013 07:44 AM


Originally Posted by Chkmgnt59 (Post 3851868)
Continuing down the path of adding power - some packages are arriving early this week.
1) BBI Coils + plugs
2) Protomotive injectors
3) Protomotive 67mm VTGs
4) Front sway bar to resolve some oversteer issues I've had on track

All will be on the car this week and we'll be good to rip onward. I'll post new 60-130 times as soon as they're available. Expecting large gains in power over stock turbo+e85 as I was out of injector and thus only running 15psi from 5k onwards.

Is that a typo or a new type of upgraded vtg???

Chkmgnt59 05-25-2013 07:52 AM

No typo, Todd has just released his new 67mm vtgs, replacing his 65mm.
My car is all put back together with the initial tune on it. Haven't been able to do any real logging yet, but from what I can see, we have lots of headroom to turn it up. only 75%IDC on the initial map.

The Bogg 05-25-2013 02:37 PM

oooooooh I see...time to send him an email.

yumaverick 05-25-2013 04:57 PM


Originally Posted by Chkmgnt59 (Post 3856664)
No typo, Todd has just released his new 67mm vtgs, replacing his 65mm.
My car is all put back together with the initial tune on it. Haven't been able to do any real logging yet, but from what I can see, we have lots of headroom to turn it up. only 75%IDC on the initial map.

Awesome can't wait to see the new 60-130 times!

Chkmgnt59 07-01-2013 02:27 PM

Wow time flies.. so we've been doing some testing back and forth and logs just weren't doing what we wanted them to do. Points to a boost leak, but we couldn't find one here at my shop. Other option was perhaps a bad set of turbos. So after some emails back and forth and talking w/ the shop here and Todd, I decided it would just be easier to get the car into Todd's hands. So I dropped it off with him this past saturday, and he's checking it all out and will return her all buttoned up. Looking forward to getting it back (no timeline on that). Todd has been very supportive and opened up his schedule to allow me to bring the car to him - great overall experience.


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