60-130: PROTOMOTIVE 63.5 PUMP & E85 #'s
 

**UPDATE: BROKE into the 5's on E85 on ETS intercoolers (May 20/15)
- 60-130: start 225.89m finish 225.12m =0% decline, 1/4 fuel like most my other runs, same road and around 14degrees


4th: 5.99


Not really a big change as with my stock coolers as I did multiple 6.03, but it was nice to see a 5.99 roll up!!


I am now going to email Todd my logs and see if we can now tune for the ETS coolers on both E85 and pump to see if we can squeeze out some more power. My only concern is running out of injectors on E85 with any more power, but I will leave that to Todd.


Really hoping to pick up some power on pump as there was no change with just the swap of intercoolers in my 60-130 other then quicker boost recovering when going through the gears (60-130 only use 4th) and feels like the car pulls harder when I get into 5th from a 3-4-5th pull or even a 4th-5th pull, but I have no previous time comparisons from before past 130 or in 5th.


Hoping for 5.8-5.7 (If there is injector room) on E85 and 6.6-6.7 on pump after Todd tunes for the ETS coolers on my set up!!


We will see!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____






**UPDATE: BROKE into the 6's on stock intercoolers and pump
- 60-130 -0.5% Decline, 9 degrees, PUMP GAS!

4th : 6.90sec (-0.6% decline /0.59G)
4th. : 6.92sec (-0.5% decline/n/a G)
4th. : 6.96sec (-0.5% decline/0.64G)
3rd-4th: 6.97sec (0% decline/0.74G)
3rd-4th: 6.93sec (-2.1% decline "started late on this pull, hence the decline)/0.75G)


The reason I went out again before I do my intercoolers, is when I tested my 7.2's, this pull was in the same conditions as then. ie. It was 8-10 degrees out and I had a little over 1/4 tank of fuel. When I did my 7.0 flat's after Todd K's "more bottom end pump gas tune", it was 3/4 tank of fuel and 18.5 degrees out. I just wanted a fair back to back to compare the two tunes.


So I can say that I picked up 0.3sec from this latest revision tune as the conditions most match each other.


Now in 3rd -4th gear pulls, my car is consistently hitting 0.74-0.75G on pump verses 0.68-0.7's with the old tune.


Well hopefully I can get around to installing my 997.2 intercoolers SOON, and fingers cross for 6.7's on PUMP and 5.8's on E85!!


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____


**UPDATE!! 60-130 -1.25% decline 18.5 degrees 94 PUMP GAS!!
3-4th: 7.02sec
4th :7.04


The only difference is Todd adjusted my bottom end tq by "moved clutch limit to match E85 file". Todd forwarded me a stock OEM tune (he just calibrate for my 80lb) 1.5 months back so we can try to diagnose a low boost issue I was having. When I got that file I was surprised that the OEM tune had so much bottom end tq / boost under 4000 rpm vs my Proto tune. I told him when I logged there was a big difference between the two under 4000 RPM'S. He then sent me this new file with everything the same as my current Proto pump gas tune, but "moved the clutch limit to match E85 file".


**that's a drop of .2 with just a revised bottom end tune**


I was hoping for a drop of .2-.4 in upgrading my stock intercoolers to run 7.0-6.8 on pump, but now I have hopes for 6.8-6.7 with upgraded intercoolers!! I should find out if my intercoolers theory is correct shortly, as I have acquired a set of 997.2!!!




__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___


After a year with out my car doing a body kit/paint (will do another thread with pics) and finding tuning gremlins....SHE IS ALIVE AGAIN!!!!


This is the thread of my progress from almost stock to MS 109 ON STOCK TURBOS:


https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ight-pipe.html





The only reason I purchased the VBOX when I had my 996 is to see real world performance increases and not just "the best down hill, bang my gear box out, stripped car for the run, wind behind me, vodo technics times..... but to see what if any a certain mods gave me power wise and or different shifting points in real world situations.


All my runs were down the same road, start around 38-40mph, start in 3rd gear, take 3rd to around 6300rpm, 4th to 7000/130mph, drive around a very big block to cool down and come around again and do it again. I took a three pull average and came out with the 60-130. I am looking for a repeatable consistent way to measure so I can see real time difference. I run Sunoco Ultra 94 with a bottle of NOS Racing Formula Octane booster per 40 litres of fuel (I put that in my fuel just to make sure that I always have at least 94points in the tank), full weight, no brake boosting.


For a reference this is my current power mods on my 997.1 manual:

PROTOMOTIVE 63.5
PROTOMOTIVE 94 octane tune & E85
PROTOMOTIVE 80lbs injectors with 5BAR FPR
do88 inlets
ERP TRIPLE clutch with LWFW
Speedtech X 3" catless race exhaust
GT3 Throttle Body
IPD Competition Intake Plenum 82mm
EVOMS under drive pulleys
BMC Air filter
**STOCK intercoolers**


Pump 94: 7.2 60-130. 3-4th gear


E85 : 6.0. 60-130. 4th gear (ran back to back 6.0, both runs almost flat /small up hill: 0.12 m & 3.7m)

6.1. 60-130 3-4th gear (as above on flat / small up hill)(these pulls in 3rd gear would just have ALOT of wheel spin/traction control killing power on my brand new sport cup tires!! I am 100% positive with warmer tires/day and no spinning/traction control 5.8-5.9 is there!!!)

3-4th gear was .83G's (least amount of wheel spin) & .75G's (with a lot of wheel spin!!)!!

I am very happy with the numbers as the car moves out solidly on pump and frankly the pulls on E85 took me by surprise as it pulled ALOT HARDER then I imagined and it was relentless.





5.8-5.9 is there for sure!




I would like to say thank you for TODD K for all his help, experience and helping me make a great street weapon!


STAY TUNED!!


Thanks


Bobby Ali


ba

congrat buddy car must feel like a beast !look like a 5sec slip soon

Bobby
Check this out
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...s-amazing.html

Man I remember reading this back in 2012 when I had my Billet 16 996 and kept thinking when I ever get a 997, E85 is in my future...... yes that is when my addiction with E85 started!


This thing was pulling .83G on the 3-4gear 60-130 E85 pulls from my pump of .7G's!!

proto....
 

congrats on the numbers OP! enjoy her

I know! The first time I did a couple of pulls and felt the amount of pull all over, especially down low, I started of thinking about too much torque and rods!


Just be the seat of my pants pull, I called Todd the very next day and ask him to keep my HP up top the same, but pull out low end tq.


He assured me that this tune is fine for stock rods as it is below 1.6BAR and that is when he starts worrying about rods. He also told me that the tune is from a proven 911 member.


As per Todd:


"This was what Chris Tellekamp ran when they made like 675awhp out in NY and set some great records in his car with the similar config."


The way the car is feeling, I think I might still go dyno it when I upgrade my intercoolers, as I would really be worried then!


My goal with car was a street reliable car NOT tuned to the ragged edge and my only peace of mind is that one of the best / most experienced tuner (Todd K) has made the tune.

Congrats man! These cars take on a whole different persona as they drop into the low 6s, high 5s 60-130. Rockets for sure :)

7.2 and then 6.0 from simply switching to e85/tune is incredible.

Congratulations!

Thank you. I think I have watched everyone of your vids and your machine is truly a real street weapon!

The reason for the drop in time being so drastic is I am running the stock 997.1 intercoolers. On pump gas my VTG's are blowing so much hot air that my intercoolers can't cope and my IAT is what is holding it back. But on E85, the E85 is cooling the cylinders down that the IAT is not that much of on issue, but the 997.1 coolers are more of a flow restriction (cfm wise)for the E85.

When I upgrade my intercoolers I can see only a 0.2 reduction on E85, but I feel a 0.3-0.4 for pump gas as it lowers my much needed high IAT!!




Thanks

Bobby Ali

ba

Love hearing about E85 success stories. Does everyone test their E ratings? Big change with its ethanol rating..

Being we don't have E85 at the pump, I order my E85 from VP RACING and it is called C85, for CONSISTENT 85.

Be very careful with C85 and proto injectors - especially the 1680cc/160lbs Todd sells. C85 has MBTE in it, which causes the seals in the injector to swell and a lose of 30% of flow.

I had this happen to me. Car went way lean and my AEM fail safe saved the engine.

Again - be careful.

what he said ...

also i would check your allignment and maybe look into upgrading suspension or finding a better road. my car has traction in all gears on 19" Super Sports.

congrats Bobby, that is a great result. Too bad the corn is so pricey up here.

Mark - can you give me some info on your alignment / suspension setup. Mine is rwd and gets pretty squirmy under power with the super sports. I think it's either my alignment or LSD is shot.

Congrats Bobby! Long time in the making man.

Mark and Craig, you guys would have a nice mutually beneficial conversation!

996 is certainly not as good with traction as 997. all i have done so far is PSS in 997 GT2 tire size with 325 in the back. DSC suspension control module. Brought suspension to OE spec allignment and i had no tractiion issues on stock ecu with cobb. Last step was ProEFI which has traction control and turn up even more, i did 4.9 60-130 starting at 40 in 2nd gear with two shifts and it was hooking hard and pulling 1.1-1.2 Gs on the 2nd gear hit.

Guys Thxs for the encouragement!

Sam, you are darn right it has been a long time in the making!! From the build with the 996, billet 20's, meth, 2nd pump, full Speedtech inlet plenum, ported head and the list goes on that I NEVER GOT TO ENJOY, to this 997 being out of hands for 8month, then a shop that wasted 2 more months and $$ that couldn't find a low boost issue (BAD EGT probe) that I had to pay another well run, professional shop to find within days with proper dianostics!!!

Man I just want to drive and put on K's on this machine!!

BTW: Today I drove the car for the first time on e85 to work and the weather was 23degrees, not the 9-11degrees that I have bee driving it in the nights.... After 10miles of spirited driving I floored it in 2nd and IT DEAD HOOKED on my Sport Cup tires .... The G's were truly eye opening as I thought it would just light them up!!

If I have time tonight (if the temps don't drop badly) I am going to see if I can do another 60-130 in 3-4 and break into the 5's with it hopefully hooking.

Suspension wise I have GMG sway f/r, H&r lowering springs, RSS front control arms.

Congratulations, Bobby! Great results - Have fun with it!

WOW that must be feeling in the gut ..1.1-1.2!!

I have had someone two months ago when I was driving the car trying to deal with my low boost issue, literally stop me and signalled me to lower my window to say, "I have been around exotics all my life and that is the BEST Porsche I have EVER heard in all my life! It sounds intoxicating....just AMAZING!!" ! No joke's!


Almost everyone that I know that has heard this machine has said "your car sounds out right exotic", "I couldn't believe that sound was coming from a Porsche", too many others. I have literally filtered out the compliments about the sound of my car as they have been almost every time I drive the car and speak to someone.


Thanks again for helping me make my overall package!


I know videos do NO justice, but here is my original post with video clips of the sound if anyone is interested:


https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...al-3-tips.html




Thanks


Bobby Ali


ba

Wow! Bobby, it is so nice to hear that kind of feedback.

I know that we feel we produce the best sounding 997TT exhaust system on the market, bar none.. and it's great to hear comments like that to reinforce our thoughts.

Congratulations again! I'm really happy for you and glad we could play a part in helping you to enjoy your car.

Superb performance stats Bobby.

The performance gains between these 63.5 VTGS and 68s seem marginal having looked at a few other threads on 68s.

I'm running very similar performance figures to 68s on GT2 Hybrids with a Proto tune. All based on stock engines.

Also it depends how you measure these VTGS. I think the 63.5 VTGS may perhaps be bigger if you measure them using same method tuners use for 68s. So confusing!

The 67/68 VTGs basically require a built engine to get the most out of them. See the champion 68 vtg car which made over 800whp. But for most people in most cases, it does seem the 63.5s are the most well-rounded solution.

Hopefully one day, somewhere, some helpful soul will run 0-300kph with a vbox and data logging to substantiate those 800whp claims (without wanting to start another war!). Very much looking forward to that as its a fascinating subject (for me).

:)

Well if if if I ever put rods in my car, I promise I'll get a tank of VP Import, tune to the max, and see what the 67s will do. If. :-)

lol!!!

As an aside though, we've seen some 700+whp cars on e85 with VTGs running 1.5 bar on stock internals. Including mine :-). So I'm actually fairly confident that at 1.9 bar or so, with all the right supporting mods and fuel, 800+ should happen.

Now, for 0-300km/h, I think the heat of the VTGs will impact that top end pretty significantly.

I agree re heat and if the above 800+whp VTG car cannot run say under 20 secs 0-300kph as timing being pulled it doesn't really have 800+whp. Hot side the same on all these VTGS which as you probably know from Todd causes too much back pressure hence too much heat. I'd love to see one run in anger as there are definitely solutions to get around the problem but not sure more boost is the answer. I'm sure someone will run one some day. I'm only fascinated as one day I will upgrade to forged 3.8 and pretty sure I'm going to go for conventional turbos. :)

Spoke to Todd K about this extensively and the issue is not the cold side as you can go almost as big as you want. It is the hot side that is small and the issue. After much friendly argument / discussion I also agreed that the 63.5's is the best fit for the stock hot side snails. Much larger on the cold and your in a position of just inefficiency, heat and power that is not substainable. Back 20 years ago when I had my MK3 7MGTE Supra doing that is fine, but on cars of this caliber I want a well rounded car that is engineered to operate together as a package.

If you want big power (as in built motor), go for a turbo that was designed from the ground up for such flow as the GT / Alpha's.

I figured that I can keep all my OEM hardware / look stock with stock fitment underneath and is enough to take my ride to its limits.....if that is the case why put hardware that I can't fully utilize.

The only reason to change my opinion on the above is for pump gas effiency and then doing larger cold side would not deal with the bottle neck of the hot side and you would not pick up more effiency for pump, BUT a GT turbo would!!

I am still thinking of doing 3076's for more power on pump and for future built motor growth! To do 5.8 on pump effiiciently and continue pulling past 130 with the same rate porpotionally past 130(because it is efficent and MADE for that power level on the hot side), gets more respect from me pulling 6.0 60-130 on VTG's on steriods (E85).


Have much more to say with the above, but would chime in later!

I couldn't agree more. My brother and I both have the 3" catless race version from speedtech. The sound is intoxicating and sounds very exotic. There is a howl that starts between 3-3500 rpm that is like no other regardless of throttle position. We couldn't possibly be happier with both of our systems. Anyone that hears it comments on how exotic it sounds. Will try to get sound clips up one day.

It will be hard for anyone in North America to get you that result unless it is at a speed event or something.


There is no doubt that the 63s on e85 approach the performance of the 68s on e85 on a non-built engine. But on pump gas the 68s still offer a worthwhile upgrade over the 63s. I'm speaking from experience - started with stock, then stock plus tune, then 63s and now 68s. For day to day driving with bursts of speed, the butt dyno and the pbox show a worthwhile improvement. From a highway roll at 75mph the 68s pull away from the 63s easily. I logged all of the pbox results in my other thread.


The 68s need the larger air inlet pipes and larger than stock injectors to get the performance from them and the value proposition may be questionable. i.e. for a little more money you could get the a2873 plus the parts to make them work, or even the a3076. But the power doesn't start to build until 4-4.5k rpm with the a3076 and that made the 68s a better choice for me. The 68s vs a2873 is 47 vs 48lb per minute of air. The 68s let me avoid oil and coolant lines, boost controllers, etc... That may not matter to some but it mattered to me.


The 200-300kph times may suffer with vtgs but that is largely irrelevant in North America. If you are a drag racer or roll racer (at sanctioned events) then it may be worthwhile going alpha or bigger.


I see that you are in the UK. I can only assume you go to specific events to get to 300kph because the roads there are busy, there are traffic cams everywhere, and I don't imagine there are many opportunities to get close to 300kph. I doubt I will ever see 300kph so I won't be able to give you the results you want to see.


Before my dynotune I hit 6.9s 60-130 on pump gas. The car has a bit more power now and I suspect it has knocked a few ticks off that time. I will try to get results at some point...

Hi There,

My cars at VMAX today although I cannot be there. She'll be VBOX and data logged as we are trying a new map. I also have VTGS albeit GT2 hybrids with larger compressor wheels. They measure 66.5mm if measured the same way the 68mm. I also have stock engine and am running very similar times to you at every increment. 0-300kph I'm running 26.5 secs and I run 1.3 bar of boost. I'm intrigued to know if the monster build 68 mm VTGS on forged built engines can hold on to their 800 whp all the way to 300 kph and beyond. At the same event which is a pretty crappy track on an incline I've managed 325kph in 1.3 miles. A friend with exactly the same set up as mine but with a catless exhaust has managed 330kph over same distance at same event. Its not ones better than the other as for 1/2 mile and 1/4 miles events I'm sure the 68mm beat the other VTGS. I'm looking forward to see what the 68mm do over the longer distance.

As an aside the VMAX record is held by a pal who who runs 9e which is tuner in UK at 369 kph over 1.3 miles. They're shooting for 386kph today so can't wait to see if the manage it. Amazing that built turbos can blow the doors off 918, Buggati, P1 , La F etc!

nice! what is the compressor inducer size on your turbos? I believe it is 49mm on the Champion 68s. They make them with the GT2 hotsides too and I debated getting those but I had heard there is a little more lag. Since I'm more interested in daily driving with short bursts rather than vmax I decided to stick with the stock hotside.

Like many people I waited with baited breath for the Champion 68 results on the guy's GT2 with built engine. As you know, no results were ever posted and the guy apparently sold the car. I got tired of waiting for other people to post their results so I just bought a pair and posted whatever results I could personally get.

They're OEM GT2 turbos so I expect they're stock GT2 hotside - I do not believe you can go bigger. Yes mines a little laggy. In fact the lagginess is why we have tried different map. We're trying to wake the turbos up a bit quicker. Trade off is whether it can still hold on to the power later on in the run without everything getting hot and ECU pulling ignition timing.

At least you have slightly larger hotsides to compliment you larger 66.5mm wheel. You would have better results/efficiency especially up top then having a standard 997 hotside with a larger cold side wheel.


I was in the same situation with my 996 EPL BILLET k16's and to me was a killer street package. I had couple runs with a friend 711RWHP Mustang up to 280+kmh! But once in 5th gear I could feel (especially after a 2nd pull) power dropping and the ECU altered timing etc to keep the motor alive with all the heat from the small pee-shooters.


For a great affordable street set up, you can't beat a re-wheels VTG's, it was like my EPL BILLET K16 package (but with more power)...that is what you call killer power under the curve, killer spool and damn good out right power for the $$$$!!!

Can't wait to hear what your car does in the event!


BOGG: I most likely would be getting intercoolers soon and would love to go for a friendly PUMP gas pull to see real world differences. I am still good to go with my stock intercoolers, but I feel you would pull pretty good up top with you 997.2 intercoolers as I am guessing my car pulls timing from high IAT's(hence one of the big reasons I drop from 7.2 to 6.0 with E85).....either way we need to at least go for a cruise if anything! Seasons coming to an end lets get a little meet going.






Thanks


Bobby Ali


ba

I was wondering about the inducer size on the "cold" side of your turbos. I'm sure it's stock hotside, wouldn't make $$ sense to change that. For example, my Champion 68s have a cold side inducer size of 49mm. I believe that is the part of the compressor that determines flow capability.


No complaints with lag with mine. boost threshold is a couple hundred rpm later than the 63s iirc. Perfectly fine for the street/highway driving I do. Not enough opportunity here to really open it up on long pulls to justify more lag. :)

Yeah let's do it! I don't recall my iat numbers on the stock I/cs with those turbos. But the 68s have quite a bit more torque in the midrange. At the very top I think the difference narrows.

9e runs 217.xx on tip 997tt ( lower boost ) yesterday. Just read it FB