Demand is key for sure but results need to be shown for the demand to be there. This platform is incredible performance wise in so many ways.

If you look at any platform out there you'll see that enthusiasts are the ones driving it and vendors follow market demand to help deliver quality parts and tuning. If it was all about cost of the motor then how do you explain 2015-16 M3/M4s getting built DCT transmissions and motors and we'll be getting a couple of them to 1000hp soon. S63tu motors (F10 and F13 m5/m6) aren't that much off the price of a new 991 turbo let alone a 997.2 turbo and a number of them are already pushing quite a bit of power and running 9s with just rewheeled stock turbos, rear wheel drive, barely hooking. The new S55 motor (F series M3/M4) is $20-25k. If it was all about how costly the motors are how do you explain Huracans getting built and running 8s? Or is it 7s already for them too now? :)

800hp M3 you raced, I bet it was the older supercharged S65 and that platform wasn't meant for boost at all. No torque and all gearing/rpm and I'd totally expect your turbo to jump out in front and pull away no drama.

Dzenno

it was a car that was fully built 3 times. turbos then blower then turbos smg to manual. he has a fortune in the car. just no match for a porsche.

Yeah I think I know who you're talking about. S65/S85 NA motors are just the wrong platform to push big power/boost on. Tons of weak points. The older S54 (E46 M3) iron block is far stronger and I know of one particular one big turbo S54 M3 that drives down from Western Canada to the events in the US that's been doing really great in roll-on events from what I've seen. New BMW's boosted M motors are really strong from the factory, especially the 4.4L S63tu V8s. What BMW has to do is add AWD on them asap. That'd be quite a game changer for them in terms of putting the power down and there are some rumors next gen M5s will come with an AWD option.

Dzenno

If it were about cost, why are people making 2000hp Huracans? lol

It's simple. Aftermarket tuner shops are super small and lack scale. It takes a lot of investment relative to the size of their business to develop tuning solutions, fuel systems, etc for the car without knowing what kind of returns they can get.

That's why I'm thankful for Cobb. They are the ones driving pretty much every single platform out there to get bigger. Where Cobb goes basically determines which platform has potential for the aftermarket.

Sooo glad i learned access tuner race on a subaru first hilarious

seriously the first company to mass produce direct injectors in larger sizes with balanced flow across a set (which i imagine requires things to be super precise given the pressure they operate at) will make a mint. If i had a CNC i'd be working on it myself.

Agree there's definitely a market for Porsche fuel systems! But they will have to make multiple molds and multiple products because Porsche makes a lot of changes even on their face lift models. Molds and new designs are expensive to R&D.

The new 997.2, 991.1, 991.2 I think are all different in subtle ways.

what a load of crap! before cobb there was proefi , syvecs and some of the best tuners doing remote tunes on dme across the world. cobb isnt leading the platform they are jumping in a decade behind every single option out there. as for building fuel systems srm built a system that set the standard for porsches in less than a yr after buying a porsche and entering the market. a small shop that has 3 cnc machines and is already building a dual injector setup as well as the only brushless fuel system in the world for porsches

Lambos, BMW's, Huracans...it's all so easy, blah blah blah..lol :p

If it was all so easy, why have we not seen any other solution besides the one GIAC has developed and installed on Longboarder's car? The one that doesn't require any secondary management system and is fully ECU-controlled. Just sayin'....;)

Let's give credit where credit is due...

To be fair, we haven't really "seen" anything. lol

Tom, how about this: bla bla bla no data to to back any claims made so far :)

I can only tell you that I wish I had as many DFI Porsche turbos willing to push power go through our shop as we do DFI BMWs. We're tuners/software guys exclusively, not hardware manufacturers and we're just waiting for someone to get the hardware done. I spoke about our BMW fuel solution more than a year ago and there really aren't 15 ways of getting a full solution done outside of that. Today a number of hardware vendors are offering secondary fuel injection kits to customers there and we're tuning them daily.

You've yourself posted about looking into upgrading the high pressure fuel pump years ago and like with most other direct injection platforms you realized what most others have in the past, its just too complex to do properly and guarantee a quality pump. Outside of APR that has an HPFP for the DFI VWs everyone else has 'solved' it with secondary port fuel injection. Why? Two reasons:

1) Fuel volume requirements especially when running with ethanol fuels (which is pretty much the norm these days when making big power) are usually far outside the limits of any HPFP solution.

2) Injection window for DI is too short at high RPM when making big power as you're injecting on the intake stroke unless you experiment changing the logic at the DME and take advantage of the double injection mode (non-homogenous) that sprays fuel during both the compression and intake stroke typically used in the low RPM area during the cat converter warm-up phase.

Solving fuel limits isn't magic or hard, far from it. Like anything it needs a shop with resources (their car, more common) or a customer ready to push limits (not very common), attention by the right hardware vendor working in tandem with an experienced tuner, lots of testing and looking at the guys that have actually already SOLVED it elsewhere.

Options:

1) Upgrade the low pressure side - Number of options here: in-tank low pressure pump(s), lines, regulator. Some even use an old school trick of a simple voltage booster on the low pressure pump to get a bit more out of the OEM in-tank pump. Some extra fuel until the high pressure side is maxed. Given what's been discussed here so far it seems that the GIAC fuel upgrade fits into this category.

2) Upgrade the high pressure pump(s) - Basically forget about it. Typically too complex for most hardware vendors out there due to machining tolerances/specs involved and reliability of the pumps at high hp. Many have tried and failed here, waste of time, never ending project.

3) Add secondary fuel injection along with a solution for the low pressure side - most actual DFI fuel solutions that have no further limitations fit into this category, and work and aren't magic. Secondary injectors are either fully controlled by a standalone or a very basic fuel controller and you have all the fuel you could possibly ever need. Complete control in one place (factory DME or standalone) is ideal but this also works really well and without issues on tons of DFI cars out there.

Dzenno@PTF

Longboarder's results from the last 1/2 mile event showed a pretty significant improvement over his car's previous results (3 or 4mph if I remember correctly), even with some bugs still in the software side. Now that those bugs have been worked out, I suspect we'll see even better results at the next event.

No disrespect to anything you or anyone else achieved on the BMW platform, but I stand by my previous statement. If it was so easy or so similar on the Porsche platform someone else would have done it already. Not having a customer willing to push the envelope or a shop car to test a system on is an excuse. I find it hard to believe that someone has had a fuel solution just sitting on their desk for the past few years waiting for a car to test it on. When someone gets involved in the aftermarket world, you have to be prepared to either lay out your own $$ for a development car, or develop a base of customers who trust you enough to allow testing on their cars. GIAC has had both...because they have a long-standing history of thorough development and testing which had built a loyal customer base who trust them.

I know there are other folks working on some slightly different solutions such as the secondary injector system, which is exciting. At the end of the day it will benefit customers, since they'll have different choices. Competition is healthy, after all. But for right now, you have to hand it to GIAC for having a working solution installed on a car. :)

+1
hilarious

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the sentiment of "if it was easy, it would have been done years ago." The 997.1 and 997.2 platforms have been ripe for basic innovation for years. Half the reason I bought my car was after looking at these forums, I couldn't believe the antiquated mentality most of the "accepted" tuners and tuning shops took. I also knew that Cobb was going to be releasing their platform which would free the end user of the "one size fits all" mentality.

Honestly, it HAS been easy to completely destroy the accepted performance limitations the 997.1 on the factory turbos. I haven't even tried, nor pulled any special tricks, to blow past everything previously available. I simply applied tuning logic utilized across the board on other platforms. Now my setup is the defacto standard for stock turbo cars and the numbers coming from many users, not just myself, show a substantial uptick in power and performance with no downsides.

Boost-a-pumps are not new and special. There may be a bit of experimentation with a bit of hardware and software, but it isn't rocket science by any means. The port injection add on is much more sophisticated with regards to both. Again, this stuff is easily done on other platforms....the 997 platform has, unfortunately, lagged FAR behind others until recently due to the established tuning shop's FUD programs out there to reap every penny from their customers for sub-par power and drivability.

That's a pretty gross mischaracterization... COBB was one of the first mainstream and successful tuning platforms on Subaru, EVO, Mazda, GTRs, and DI BMW's. They are a bit behind the curve on the 996/997.1 support, and somewhat late for the 997.2, but they're up on the front lines with the 991. Also, besides Eurodyne, you're getting a much cleaner, user intuitive tuning module.

And regarding any of the aftermarket EMS (ProEFI, Syvecs, AEM, Motec), there's a HUGE entry "tax" associated with these things. I don't think anyone is going to dispute the benefits of a standalone, but it's not something that the majority can't financially justify.

I'd definitely agree with most of what you're saying, and especially that Cobb has added a new dynamic by giving some tuners the ability to tune the 997.1 and 997.2 platforms who may otherwise have not had the ability to develop their own flash delivery system.

But keep in mind, 1000+ hp 997.1 turbo builds have been around for years, since 2007 or 2008 at least. Years ago there were several Protomotive builds running E85 and high HP numbers. EVOMS had several really high HP cars too...so there were certainly options out there. On the 997.2, we had cars running 9 second 1/4 mile times on stock turbos in early 2013. So to say that these platforms have been at a standstill just waiting for someone to "free" them is a bit misleading. Certainly now there are more options for customization which is definitely a great thing for the end users, but some good performance benchmarks have definitely been out there for years.