Is the Turbo really a GT, not sports car?
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Thinking about it now,... I don't think it's either one of those 2 options.
If I had to affix a label on the Turbo,.. I think it leans more towards "Muscle Car".
It's ok as a GT car,.. but not quite smooth enough to be a great one.
Ok as a sports car,.. but the handling and the abrupt power delivery leave a lot to be desired in the twisties.
Mash the loud pedal though, and it goes like stink.
If the suspension had rebound that wasn't 2-3x what it should be,.. (the oil in our shocks actually cavitates, and even turns into a gas causing massive hysteresis. On top of that,.. the rebound is more than 2x critical for the spring rate,.. (Rebound rates are around 530 in front, on a spring that around 206 - 210 lb/in ), ......... then it could be a GT.
More neg camber in front, better toe control in the rear,... and making the turbos not come on so abruptly and it would be a great sports car.
But as it's sits,.. I'd say 1/4 Sports car,..... 1/4 GT,..... and 1/2 muscle car.
If I had to affix a label on the Turbo,.. I think it leans more towards "Muscle Car".
It's ok as a GT car,.. but not quite smooth enough to be a great one.
Ok as a sports car,.. but the handling and the abrupt power delivery leave a lot to be desired in the twisties.
Mash the loud pedal though, and it goes like stink.
If the suspension had rebound that wasn't 2-3x what it should be,.. (the oil in our shocks actually cavitates, and even turns into a gas causing massive hysteresis. On top of that,.. the rebound is more than 2x critical for the spring rate,.. (Rebound rates are around 530 in front, on a spring that around 206 - 210 lb/in ), ......... then it could be a GT.
More neg camber in front, better toe control in the rear,... and making the turbos not come on so abruptly and it would be a great sports car.
But as it's sits,.. I'd say 1/4 Sports car,..... 1/4 GT,..... and 1/2 muscle car.
Last edited by Duckstu; Jun 8, 2017 at 10:27 AM.
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+1 On it being a sports car.
-No fussy driver aids
-Rides like an oxcart
-Noisy as hell on road
-farts, burps, and hiccups when starting or coming off idle.
-handles like a bob sled
-can get you in real trouble real fast if you're not ready for it.
-stops on a dime
-can still (to this day) chase down and outrun any modern sports car and many super cars.
-has great adaptive seats
-is RAW and connected to the road.
-No fussy driver aids
-Rides like an oxcart
-Noisy as hell on road
-farts, burps, and hiccups when starting or coming off idle.
-handles like a bob sled
-can get you in real trouble real fast if you're not ready for it.
-stops on a dime
-can still (to this day) chase down and outrun any modern sports car and many super cars.
-has great adaptive seats
-is RAW and connected to the road.
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Originally Posted by TimeTomorrow
In my opinion, this definition is dated. Modern cars have added features, weight, and complexity. Unless you want to say they practically don't make sports cars anymore since you can get a Miata with heated leather seats, I don't see the point of your argument. The 911 turbo will spank the elise on the racetrack or the back roads, so clearly they didn't trade away the cars capability to achieve those comforts. Are we really going to compare a modern sports car to older cars from a simpler time as our measurement? Are we going to say that a miata is a GT too since it has heated leather and you don't have a modern sports car unless it's an ariel atom?
The magic of the 911 is the amount of practicality porsche has managed to add to a sports car. Instead of trying to say it's not a sports car because it can toast your rear, why don't you try coming up with examples of cars that are best suited for the street, not the track, that are more sports cars than the 911 turbo? Imho the list is so short that the 911 turbo gets to join the list easily.
On the other side of the coin, if we look at the true modern GT cars, like the bentley, the jaguar, and the aston, we can see how those cars are considerably more comfortable, considerably heavier, and considerably less sporting than the 911 turbo.
The magic of the 911 is the amount of practicality porsche has managed to add to a sports car. Instead of trying to say it's not a sports car because it can toast your rear, why don't you try coming up with examples of cars that are best suited for the street, not the track, that are more sports cars than the 911 turbo? Imho the list is so short that the 911 turbo gets to join the list easily.
On the other side of the coin, if we look at the true modern GT cars, like the bentley, the jaguar, and the aston, we can see how those cars are considerably more comfortable, considerably heavier, and considerably less sporting than the 911 turbo.
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lol, raw? What the hell is raw about this car? My 993TT isn't even raw. I just spent almost 6 hours in the car on the way home from montreal (another 5 on the way up friday night). The car is quiet, comfortable, soft, and easy to drive (aside from the stupid clutch feel). A/C blasting and the stereo softly playing while the miles rolled by. Were this an exige or even a GT3, my ears would be bleeding, my back would need a chiropractor, and the ride would have my kidneys bruised.
There is not a single raw thing about this vehicle...literally nothing. It may not be as overstuffed or quiet as a bentley, but a Bentley is a GT car in name only. Its just a two door luxury sedan with a big engine.
The turbo is fast (although I think a stock one would have trouble with a well driven exige on a track), but just as a bentley is faster than a boxster, doesn't make one more or less of a sports car.
Ever since the 964, 911s have been GT cars. Excellent performance when you want it, but a comfortable enjoyable ride for longer journeys.
sorry, I'm not sure why people get so offended when these cars get called GT cars.
There is not a single raw thing about this vehicle...literally nothing. It may not be as overstuffed or quiet as a bentley, but a Bentley is a GT car in name only. Its just a two door luxury sedan with a big engine.
The turbo is fast (although I think a stock one would have trouble with a well driven exige on a track), but just as a bentley is faster than a boxster, doesn't make one more or less of a sports car.
Ever since the 964, 911s have been GT cars. Excellent performance when you want it, but a comfortable enjoyable ride for longer journeys.
sorry, I'm not sure why people get so offended when these cars get called GT cars.
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lol, raw? What the hell is raw about this car? My 993TT isn't even raw. I just spent almost 6 hours in the car on the way home from montreal (another 5 on the way up friday night). The car is quiet, comfortable, soft, and easy to drive (aside from the stupid clutch feel). A/C blasting and the stereo softly playing while the miles rolled by. Were this an exige or even a GT3, my ears would be bleeding, my back would need a chiropractor, and the ride would have my kidneys bruised.
There is not a single raw thing about this vehicle...literally nothing. It may not be as overstuffed or quiet as a bentley, but a Bentley is a GT car in name only. Its just a two door luxury sedan with a big engine.
The turbo is fast (although I think a stock one would have trouble with a well driven exige on a track), but just as a bentley is faster than a boxster, doesn't make one more or less of a sports car.
Ever since the 964, 911s have been GT cars. Excellent performance when you want it, but a comfortable enjoyable ride for longer journeys.
sorry, I'm not sure why people get so offended when these cars get called GT cars.
There is not a single raw thing about this vehicle...literally nothing. It may not be as overstuffed or quiet as a bentley, but a Bentley is a GT car in name only. Its just a two door luxury sedan with a big engine.
The turbo is fast (although I think a stock one would have trouble with a well driven exige on a track), but just as a bentley is faster than a boxster, doesn't make one more or less of a sports car.
Ever since the 964, 911s have been GT cars. Excellent performance when you want it, but a comfortable enjoyable ride for longer journeys.
sorry, I'm not sure why people get so offended when these cars get called GT cars.
My 1979 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce was raw. It had no automatic assists. It had manual windows, unassisted steering, manual door locks, no seat belts, manually operated top, it smelled like oil and gasoline, and it leaked when it rained. That's raw. On the luxury side, it did have AM and FM radio!
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I agree. My 997 was quite luxurious and comfortable. It was no more raw than my current 991, which is not raw. There's nothing wrong with having a comfortable, fast car.
My 1979 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce was raw. It had no automatic assists. It had manual windows, unassisted steering, manual door locks, no seat belts, manually operated top, it smelled like oil and gasoline, and it leaked when it rained. That's raw. On the luxury side, it did have AM and FM radio!
My 1979 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce was raw. It had no automatic assists. It had manual windows, unassisted steering, manual door locks, no seat belts, manually operated top, it smelled like oil and gasoline, and it leaked when it rained. That's raw. On the luxury side, it did have AM and FM radio!
So I suppose that means the kia optima is an ultra luxury car since it has all kinds of shiz the 1979 rolls royce Camargue couldn't even dream of.
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If we are using the 1979 definition of raw, sports car, etc, why do you think I'm incorrect to judge a 2017 car by the 1979 definition of luxury?
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I'm not using 1979 as the definition of a raw sports car. You are.
The things that made the 1979 Alfa raw were the way that it drove and the overall experience. It had nothing to do with the fact that it was made in 1979.
Please don't think that I'm bashing the 997 here; I loved my 997. It was a great vehicle that I enjoyed owning. I just didn't find it to be raw or visceral. I found it to be very fast, very comfortable and an excellent cruiser. Perhaps it rides the line between a GT car and a sports car; I think it really depends on how you define a sports car.
The things that made the 1979 Alfa raw were the way that it drove and the overall experience. It had nothing to do with the fact that it was made in 1979.
Please don't think that I'm bashing the 997 here; I loved my 997. It was a great vehicle that I enjoyed owning. I just didn't find it to be raw or visceral. I found it to be very fast, very comfortable and an excellent cruiser. Perhaps it rides the line between a GT car and a sports car; I think it really depends on how you define a sports car.
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Some very interesting perspectives here.
No doubt a 997 turbo is a sports car...how much of a sports car, is the real question.
The turbo can do just about anything as good as the best - great handling, good power, etc. I looked at 997 turbos for the longest time and drove plenty. In my opinion, the car was a little numb. It simply wasn't raw enough. I also drove a few GT3s and GT3RSs and could definitely tell the difference in feel.
I finally drove a "modded" 997 turbo and it changed my opinion completely about the car. The previous owner dumped almost $ 100k in modifications and totally transformed the turbo. Now, it will never be a GT3RS...it will never have that same feel/sound...but it is certainly much closer with substantially more power. For the money difference, he probably could have bought a GT3RS and added some power adders.
No doubt a 997 turbo is a sports car...how much of a sports car, is the real question.
The turbo can do just about anything as good as the best - great handling, good power, etc. I looked at 997 turbos for the longest time and drove plenty. In my opinion, the car was a little numb. It simply wasn't raw enough. I also drove a few GT3s and GT3RSs and could definitely tell the difference in feel.
I finally drove a "modded" 997 turbo and it changed my opinion completely about the car. The previous owner dumped almost $ 100k in modifications and totally transformed the turbo. Now, it will never be a GT3RS...it will never have that same feel/sound...but it is certainly much closer with substantially more power. For the money difference, he probably could have bought a GT3RS and added some power adders.
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I agree - very interesting perspectives. I think that reading Internet forums and owning a Porsche changes the way that we think about things. If you were to ask the average person to name a sports car brand, my guess is that the majority would say "Porsche". Most people have never heard of a GT car.
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The whole question is a bit pointless.
Sports car, GT, Muscle car?
It does all of those fairly well. Which is what's so special about it.
I can't quite agree with Tailwag above about the great handling. I found it to be quite lacking. The shocks are poorly done. but that's an afternoons work to rectify. (GT3 front control arms and Ohlins R+T's did it for me).
Sports car, GT, Muscle car?
It does all of those fairly well. Which is what's so special about it.
I can't quite agree with Tailwag above about the great handling. I found it to be quite lacking. The shocks are poorly done. but that's an afternoons work to rectify. (GT3 front control arms and Ohlins R+T's did it for me).
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Some very interesting perspectives here.
No doubt a 997 turbo is a sports car...how much of a sports car, is the real question.
The turbo can do just about anything as good as the best - great handling, good power, etc. I looked at 997 turbos for the longest time and drove plenty. In my opinion, the car was a little numb. It simply wasn't raw enough. I also drove a few GT3s and GT3RSs and could definitely tell the difference in feel.
I finally drove a "modded" 997 turbo and it changed my opinion completely about the car. The previous owner dumped almost $ 100k in modifications and totally transformed the turbo. Now, it will never be a GT3RS...it will never have that same feel/sound...but it is certainly much closer with substantially more power. For the money difference, he probably could have bought a GT3RS and added some power adders.
No doubt a 997 turbo is a sports car...how much of a sports car, is the real question.
The turbo can do just about anything as good as the best - great handling, good power, etc. I looked at 997 turbos for the longest time and drove plenty. In my opinion, the car was a little numb. It simply wasn't raw enough. I also drove a few GT3s and GT3RSs and could definitely tell the difference in feel.
I finally drove a "modded" 997 turbo and it changed my opinion completely about the car. The previous owner dumped almost $ 100k in modifications and totally transformed the turbo. Now, it will never be a GT3RS...it will never have that same feel/sound...but it is certainly much closer with substantially more power. For the money difference, he probably could have bought a GT3RS and added some power adders.
Valid Point
My use of the word "raw" came from my experience driving my own car which is modded.
I will now go write: "My car is not raw" on the blackboard 100x
LOL to me, raw is a 2,000lbs manual trans car on slicks with no mufflers, sound deadening, ABS, power assists or driver aids of any kind...
How about we just call the TT a "Sports GT" and leave it at that? Else I agree it may be more muscle car than anything else. We all agree it's not an optimal canyon carver or track car out of the box.
How about we just call the TT a "Sports GT" and leave it at that? Else I agree it may be more muscle car than anything else. We all agree it's not an optimal canyon carver or track car out of the box.