Help for first time buyer.
#16
03-21-2009, 05:53 PM
I will try to answer some of your questions .
1) Most of the CPO cars that I see are cars which received "certified" status after Porsche launched the program . In short they are recent model year cars from 05 to present (used). I highly recommend a CPO car . It offers warranty coverage and undergoes an inspection to meet the certification requirements . In addition I recommend a DME scan to view the engine's over rev history.
2) Going into a private sale on a high end vehicle lacking confidence and without a full understanding about the car could bring on a used car nightmare .
3) I rode in a convertible the other day for my first time (I'm a coupe person) yet I was impressed tremendously. The acoustics were great with the wind deflector up and hearing the engine was actually quite refershing because i like the sound . Each person has to decide on his own .
4) "I'm eyeing a 997 C2S Cab with 15K and asking 66K" -- This is the the standard ask price depending on year and options . It's important to know the "must have" options and they can vary from person to person .
Kenny is right .. learn about the car a bit .
I do think a good starting point would be to test drive these cars at a Porsche dealership especially if you have this impulse to buy a car because at least there is a "certified" status and team of technicians behind making that car right for you .
1) Most of the CPO cars that I see are cars which received "certified" status after Porsche launched the program . In short they are recent model year cars from 05 to present (used). I highly recommend a CPO car . It offers warranty coverage and undergoes an inspection to meet the certification requirements . In addition I recommend a DME scan to view the engine's over rev history.
2) Going into a private sale on a high end vehicle lacking confidence and without a full understanding about the car could bring on a used car nightmare .
3) I rode in a convertible the other day for my first time (I'm a coupe person) yet I was impressed tremendously. The acoustics were great with the wind deflector up and hearing the engine was actually quite refershing because i like the sound . Each person has to decide on his own .
4) "I'm eyeing a 997 C2S Cab with 15K and asking 66K" -- This is the the standard ask price depending on year and options . It's important to know the "must have" options and they can vary from person to person .
Kenny is right .. learn about the car a bit .
I do think a good starting point would be to test drive these cars at a Porsche dealership especially if you have this impulse to buy a car because at least there is a "certified" status and team of technicians behind making that car right for you .
#17
03-21-2009, 06:01 PM
In the south florida weather, I'd think that you'd have many chances to enjoy the open air experience.
Oh and if you get the Cab, get the seat heaters. You may not have the top down on super hot and humid days, but night drives in the cool weather, top down and heaters on? Priceless.[/quote]
This is very true, nothing like the experiance of the open air beautiful sky experience with a cab in S.Fl.
Every chance I have the top is down. Wide body C4S cab, it's a love affair.
Oh and if you get the Cab, get the seat heaters. You may not have the top down on super hot and humid days, but night drives in the cool weather, top down and heaters on? Priceless.[/quote]
This is very true, nothing like the experiance of the open air beautiful sky experience with a cab in S.Fl.
Every chance I have the top is down. Wide body C4S cab, it's a love affair.
Last edited by babymd; 03-21-2009 at 06:08 PM.
#19
03-22-2009, 09:04 PM
Be very careful with CPO cars.
Not all Porsche dealers are honest! The Napleton Porsche in Chicago tried to sell me a CPO C4S cab that was re-painted all over!! Called Porsche NA and they did nothing about it even though I drove 4 hours to see the car!
Not all Porsche dealers are honest! The Napleton Porsche in Chicago tried to sell me a CPO C4S cab that was re-painted all over!! Called Porsche NA and they did nothing about it even though I drove 4 hours to see the car!
#20
03-24-2009, 01:49 AM
Test Drive
So it is 230 am and I'm still wired from the test drive.
I test drove the 2006 C2S Cab (15K Miles) CPO Sport Shifter, Bose, Heated Seats.
The Cab was parked with its back to me and the sales guy offered to pull it out. The car looked beautiful, very gracious and stylish. The paint, some of the curves and the general dimensions resembled the Lexus 430SC with it's top down. Then the engine turned on. I started laughing. This was no freaking Lexus. The sound was deep, loud, with a bit of vibration that I could almost feel from 10 feet away. It wasn't obnoxious like on a mustang but very confident and 'business' oriented: it was all about performance. The guy pumped the gas pedal a bit and smoke came out of those twin exhausts. My smile got even bigger than it was before. He put the top down and off we went.
Now, remember, i'm a Newbie. I have driven stick a few times but for all intents and purposes, I don't know how to drive it. I told the guy as much and he told me not to worry about it and that the clutch was very easy. He was right! The only time I stalled is when I parked the car at the end of the test drive.
The first time I shifted into first gear and I heard and felt the engine push me forward from behind was just priceless! We drove down on a 3 lane highway for a bit and then took hilly and twisty country roads back. We had the top down and the sound of the engine was just awesome to hear. I don't know how to exactly describe it what it sounded like on the road, but it just brought the biggest smile to my face. At any point, I could always press the paddle and I would get this huge push in my back and we would fly off. The highest gear I went to was 4th and I did not expect to have so much power at my disposal with so much sophistication and precision. Suspension was great. It was stiff but not uncomfortable. The car did not dip or wobble at top of hils or on turns. It was literally glued to the road. The handling was also superb. Most importantly, I felt that I was driving and in tune with the car (as much I could be, given my shifting skills). We were moving through space in a connected fashion, more so than I have felt before.
Since I was obviously concentrating on shifting and not slamming into a school bus or a telephone pole as we were flying over hills and taking sharp turns, the sensations of the car itself were somewhat delayed and I got an even bigger rush when I got out of it and was remembering what just happened. I can only imagine how awesome it will feel when I have better skills and will be less nervous.
We got out of the car and the good part ended.
Now for some fishy things:
1. Not so fishy, but when walking around the parking lot afterwards, I saw the C4. I never compared C4 to C2 from the back before and I did a double take. The wide body is really beautiful. Pardon the analogy, but it almost looks like a F-350 with those double back tires sticking out. Not quite, but the wide body looked quite appealing. To say the least. I spent about 10 minutes just staring at that back. I guess Targas are also wide body, but I would really want a Targa S (rare, I imagine) or C4S. I need to figure out whether a wide body is just something to look out for or a rigid requirement for my Porsche. The dealer also told me that C4S handles the same as a C2S off the track. I'm a Newbie, but I'm not naive. Would anybody enlighten me on some of the differences?
2. I was told that DME scans are available, but "there will be an extra charge". Not sure if that is the standard practice or not?
3. "Our prices are already below the national average on the pre-owned" and thus somewhat stiff. I guess that is the standard bargainiing tactic, but one
that I refuse to believe. Any good bargaining techniques that have worked for you guys?
So, I will need to do some soul searching about the wide body and continue my Porsche search in general.
That was a great ride!
Excited Newbie
I test drove the 2006 C2S Cab (15K Miles) CPO Sport Shifter, Bose, Heated Seats.
The Cab was parked with its back to me and the sales guy offered to pull it out. The car looked beautiful, very gracious and stylish. The paint, some of the curves and the general dimensions resembled the Lexus 430SC with it's top down. Then the engine turned on. I started laughing. This was no freaking Lexus. The sound was deep, loud, with a bit of vibration that I could almost feel from 10 feet away. It wasn't obnoxious like on a mustang but very confident and 'business' oriented: it was all about performance. The guy pumped the gas pedal a bit and smoke came out of those twin exhausts. My smile got even bigger than it was before. He put the top down and off we went.
Now, remember, i'm a Newbie. I have driven stick a few times but for all intents and purposes, I don't know how to drive it. I told the guy as much and he told me not to worry about it and that the clutch was very easy. He was right! The only time I stalled is when I parked the car at the end of the test drive.
The first time I shifted into first gear and I heard and felt the engine push me forward from behind was just priceless! We drove down on a 3 lane highway for a bit and then took hilly and twisty country roads back. We had the top down and the sound of the engine was just awesome to hear. I don't know how to exactly describe it what it sounded like on the road, but it just brought the biggest smile to my face. At any point, I could always press the paddle and I would get this huge push in my back and we would fly off. The highest gear I went to was 4th and I did not expect to have so much power at my disposal with so much sophistication and precision. Suspension was great. It was stiff but not uncomfortable. The car did not dip or wobble at top of hils or on turns. It was literally glued to the road. The handling was also superb. Most importantly, I felt that I was driving and in tune with the car (as much I could be, given my shifting skills). We were moving through space in a connected fashion, more so than I have felt before.
Since I was obviously concentrating on shifting and not slamming into a school bus or a telephone pole as we were flying over hills and taking sharp turns, the sensations of the car itself were somewhat delayed and I got an even bigger rush when I got out of it and was remembering what just happened. I can only imagine how awesome it will feel when I have better skills and will be less nervous.
We got out of the car and the good part ended.
Now for some fishy things:
1. Not so fishy, but when walking around the parking lot afterwards, I saw the C4. I never compared C4 to C2 from the back before and I did a double take. The wide body is really beautiful. Pardon the analogy, but it almost looks like a F-350 with those double back tires sticking out. Not quite, but the wide body looked quite appealing. To say the least. I spent about 10 minutes just staring at that back. I guess Targas are also wide body, but I would really want a Targa S (rare, I imagine) or C4S. I need to figure out whether a wide body is just something to look out for or a rigid requirement for my Porsche. The dealer also told me that C4S handles the same as a C2S off the track. I'm a Newbie, but I'm not naive. Would anybody enlighten me on some of the differences?
2. I was told that DME scans are available, but "there will be an extra charge". Not sure if that is the standard practice or not?
3. "Our prices are already below the national average on the pre-owned" and thus somewhat stiff. I guess that is the standard bargainiing tactic, but one
that I refuse to believe. Any good bargaining techniques that have worked for you guys?
So, I will need to do some soul searching about the wide body and continue my Porsche search in general.
That was a great ride!
Excited Newbie
#22
03-24-2009, 11:42 AM
So it is 230 am and I'm still wired from the test drive.
I test drove the 2006 C2S Cab (15K Miles) CPO Sport Shifter, Bose, Heated Seats.
The Cab was parked with its back to me and the sales guy offered to pull it out. The car looked beautiful, very gracious and stylish. The paint, some of the curves and the general dimensions resembled the Lexus 430SC with it's top down. Then the engine turned on. I started laughing. This was no freaking Lexus. The sound was deep, loud, with a bit of vibration that I could almost feel from 10 feet away. It wasn't obnoxious like on a mustang but very confident and 'business' oriented: it was all about performance. The guy pumped the gas pedal a bit and smoke came out of those twin exhausts. My smile got even bigger than it was before. He put the top down and off we went.
Now, remember, i'm a Newbie. I have driven stick a few times but for all intents and purposes, I don't know how to drive it. I told the guy as much and he told me not to worry about it and that the clutch was very easy. He was right! The only time I stalled is when I parked the car at the end of the test drive.
The first time I shifted into first gear and I heard and felt the engine push me forward from behind was just priceless! We drove down on a 3 lane highway for a bit and then took hilly and twisty country roads back. We had the top down and the sound of the engine was just awesome to hear. I don't know how to exactly describe it what it sounded like on the road, but it just brought the biggest smile to my face. At any point, I could always press the paddle and I would get this huge push in my back and we would fly off. The highest gear I went to was 4th and I did not expect to have so much power at my disposal with so much sophistication and precision. Suspension was great. It was stiff but not uncomfortable. The car did not dip or wobble at top of hils or on turns. It was literally glued to the road. The handling was also superb. Most importantly, I felt that I was driving and in tune with the car (as much I could be, given my shifting skills). We were moving through space in a connected fashion, more so than I have felt before.
Since I was obviously concentrating on shifting and not slamming into a school bus or a telephone pole as we were flying over hills and taking sharp turns, the sensations of the car itself were somewhat delayed and I got an even bigger rush when I got out of it and was remembering what just happened. I can only imagine how awesome it will feel when I have better skills and will be less nervous.
We got out of the car and the good part ended.
Now for some fishy things:
1. Not so fishy, but when walking around the parking lot afterwards, I saw the C4. I never compared C4 to C2 from the back before and I did a double take. The wide body is really beautiful. Pardon the analogy, but it almost looks like a F-350 with those double back tires sticking out. Not quite, but the wide body looked quite appealing. To say the least. I spent about 10 minutes just staring at that back. I guess Targas are also wide body, but I would really want a Targa S (rare, I imagine) or C4S. I need to figure out whether a wide body is just something to look out for or a rigid requirement for my Porsche. The dealer also told me that C4S handles the same as a C2S off the track. I'm a Newbie, but I'm not naive. Would anybody enlighten me on some of the differences?
2. I was told that DME scans are available, but "there will be an extra charge". Not sure if that is the standard practice or not?
3. "Our prices are already below the national average on the pre-owned" and thus somewhat stiff. I guess that is the standard bargainiing tactic, but one
that I refuse to believe. Any good bargaining techniques that have worked for you guys?
So, I will need to do some soul searching about the wide body and continue my Porsche search in general.
That was a great ride!
Excited Newbie
I test drove the 2006 C2S Cab (15K Miles) CPO Sport Shifter, Bose, Heated Seats.
The Cab was parked with its back to me and the sales guy offered to pull it out. The car looked beautiful, very gracious and stylish. The paint, some of the curves and the general dimensions resembled the Lexus 430SC with it's top down. Then the engine turned on. I started laughing. This was no freaking Lexus. The sound was deep, loud, with a bit of vibration that I could almost feel from 10 feet away. It wasn't obnoxious like on a mustang but very confident and 'business' oriented: it was all about performance. The guy pumped the gas pedal a bit and smoke came out of those twin exhausts. My smile got even bigger than it was before. He put the top down and off we went.
Now, remember, i'm a Newbie. I have driven stick a few times but for all intents and purposes, I don't know how to drive it. I told the guy as much and he told me not to worry about it and that the clutch was very easy. He was right! The only time I stalled is when I parked the car at the end of the test drive.
The first time I shifted into first gear and I heard and felt the engine push me forward from behind was just priceless! We drove down on a 3 lane highway for a bit and then took hilly and twisty country roads back. We had the top down and the sound of the engine was just awesome to hear. I don't know how to exactly describe it what it sounded like on the road, but it just brought the biggest smile to my face. At any point, I could always press the paddle and I would get this huge push in my back and we would fly off. The highest gear I went to was 4th and I did not expect to have so much power at my disposal with so much sophistication and precision. Suspension was great. It was stiff but not uncomfortable. The car did not dip or wobble at top of hils or on turns. It was literally glued to the road. The handling was also superb. Most importantly, I felt that I was driving and in tune with the car (as much I could be, given my shifting skills). We were moving through space in a connected fashion, more so than I have felt before.
Since I was obviously concentrating on shifting and not slamming into a school bus or a telephone pole as we were flying over hills and taking sharp turns, the sensations of the car itself were somewhat delayed and I got an even bigger rush when I got out of it and was remembering what just happened. I can only imagine how awesome it will feel when I have better skills and will be less nervous.
We got out of the car and the good part ended.
Now for some fishy things:
1. Not so fishy, but when walking around the parking lot afterwards, I saw the C4. I never compared C4 to C2 from the back before and I did a double take. The wide body is really beautiful. Pardon the analogy, but it almost looks like a F-350 with those double back tires sticking out. Not quite, but the wide body looked quite appealing. To say the least. I spent about 10 minutes just staring at that back. I guess Targas are also wide body, but I would really want a Targa S (rare, I imagine) or C4S. I need to figure out whether a wide body is just something to look out for or a rigid requirement for my Porsche. The dealer also told me that C4S handles the same as a C2S off the track. I'm a Newbie, but I'm not naive. Would anybody enlighten me on some of the differences?
2. I was told that DME scans are available, but "there will be an extra charge". Not sure if that is the standard practice or not?
3. "Our prices are already below the national average on the pre-owned" and thus somewhat stiff. I guess that is the standard bargainiing tactic, but one
that I refuse to believe. Any good bargaining techniques that have worked for you guys?
So, I will need to do some soul searching about the wide body and continue my Porsche search in general.
That was a great ride!
Excited Newbie
What is the asking price? Also, congrats on walking away and taking your time--very imporant--especially when negotiating.
#23
03-24-2009, 11:48 AM
Agreed - your feet are your best negotaiting tool...although, I admit some of these cars are hard to walk away from. Re: DME scan - hold firm and require a readout on any car you're considering - bogus answer from the selling dealer about additional cost - it's minimal, if any, and if they want to sell the car they should do it. Good luck.
#24
03-24-2009, 02:45 PM
Agreed - your feet are your best negotaiting tool...although, I admit some of these cars are hard to walk away from. Re: DME scan - hold firm and require a readout on any car you're considering - bogus answer from the selling dealer about additional cost - it's minimal, if any, and if they want to sell the car they should do it. Good luck.
66K and change was the price. The dealer was sweet as cake but the above few things made me cautios. Also, I half-played up my Porsche-virginity and he started telling me things that were just silly. And I also have some artificial safeguards built it, so that I don't make an impulsive purchase. That being said, once I found my car, I know it will be a very easy and quick decision.
I just don't believe that you can't negotiate for a used car. How much can you get off for 997s right now is a different story and I welcome some feedback. yrralis1 has been more than helpful is throwing some numbers up. Would love to hear more.
Can you guys enlighten me on the differences in the driving experience on C4S and C2S?
Thanks as always. Without you guys, I'm totally an easy target.
Newbie.
#25
03-24-2009, 03:14 PM
66K and change was the price. The dealer was sweet as cake but the above few things made me cautios. Also, I half-played up my Porsche-virginity and he started telling me things that were just silly. And I also have some artificial safeguards built it, so that I don't make an impulsive purchase. That being said, once I found my car, I know it will be a very easy and quick decision.
I just don't believe that you can't negotiate for a used car. How much can you get off for 997s right now is a different story and I welcome some feedback. yrralis1 has been more than helpful is throwing some numbers up. Would love to hear more.
Can you guys enlighten me on the differences in the driving experience on C4S and C2S?
Thanks as always. Without you guys, I'm totally an easy target.
Newbie.
I just don't believe that you can't negotiate for a used car. How much can you get off for 997s right now is a different story and I welcome some feedback. yrralis1 has been more than helpful is throwing some numbers up. Would love to hear more.
Can you guys enlighten me on the differences in the driving experience on C4S and C2S?
Thanks as always. Without you guys, I'm totally an easy target.
Newbie.
Good luck!
#26
03-24-2009, 06:34 PM
C2S vs C4S -- The C2S is a lighter car . It's more nimble in tight corners and fun to drive unless one is driving in the rain or snow . In fact the C4S is used at the winter driving school . YouTube - Porsche Camp 4S in Finland
As for price -- any car is negotiable and those negotiations end when you either buy a car or walk out . Also walking into any dealership with a checkbook in yoir hand and a title to a trade in can make a great deal materialze very fast . Phone negotiation works well if the drive distance is far because the moment one hangs up the deal is either on or off . BUT .. no dealership will take the deal seriously unless the buyer is ready to purchase from them within a respectable timeline . End of the month is usually the best route and end of the year in Dec is the best overall .
As for price -- any car is negotiable and those negotiations end when you either buy a car or walk out . Also walking into any dealership with a checkbook in yoir hand and a title to a trade in can make a great deal materialze very fast . Phone negotiation works well if the drive distance is far because the moment one hangs up the deal is either on or off . BUT .. no dealership will take the deal seriously unless the buyer is ready to purchase from them within a respectable timeline . End of the month is usually the best route and end of the year in Dec is the best overall .
#27
03-24-2009, 07:50 PM
C2S vs C4S -- The C2S is a lighter car . It's more nimble in tight corners and fun to drive unless one is driving in the rain or snow . In fact the C4S is used at the winter driving school . YouTube - Porsche Camp 4S in Finland
As for price -- any car is negotiable and those negotiations end when you either buy a car or walk out . Also walking into any dealership with a checkbook in yoir hand and a title to a trade in can make a great deal materialze very fast . Phone negotiation works well if the drive distance is far because the moment one hangs up the deal is either on or off . BUT .. no dealership will take the deal seriously unless the buyer is ready to purchase from them within a respectable timeline . End of the month is usually the best route and end of the year in Dec is the best overall .
As for price -- any car is negotiable and those negotiations end when you either buy a car or walk out . Also walking into any dealership with a checkbook in yoir hand and a title to a trade in can make a great deal materialze very fast . Phone negotiation works well if the drive distance is far because the moment one hangs up the deal is either on or off . BUT .. no dealership will take the deal seriously unless the buyer is ready to purchase from them within a respectable timeline . End of the month is usually the best route and end of the year in Dec is the best overall .
Would it be true than that C4S Coupe is more agile than C2S Cab as it is about a 100lb lighter? Plus added support of the frame.
TaylorColeman, I like your price for your car much better than the same price for mine. After all, it has 10000 miles less under the belt and it has a ton more options, each of which cost a significant amount of coin.
Agree with yrralis1 in that every car's price is negotiable and 60-80K are not burning a hole in my pocket. I can wait. For the buyer, it makes much better sense to negotiate a price first. And buy the car at that price, provided the test drive, CPO, DME will be without major blemishes. If you testdrive first, then you WANT that car NOW, so, of course, what kind of negotiating power do you have left? It is all marketing and psychology from A to Z. I almost don't care what the original price was: it only matters what I think this car is worth right now at that dealer.
Contemplative Newbie
#28
03-24-2009, 08:01 PM
It's not only the weight, but the added drive mechanism that detracts from the sports car experience. There's been a lot written about the pro's and con's, the old think and the new think. But I have to agree with the prior post. They are somewhat different cars. More so if you really care about steering feel and the finer points of car control.
That said, I suspect that if you never drove a C2S, you'd be very happy with a C4S. But if you're really into the driving experience, you'll choose a C2S over a C4S, unless your climate favors the AWD.
Finally, I do agree that the 'haunches' of the C4S are really hot. It's an even cooler look than the C2S. But I bought the C2S, would not buy a C4S, and would not even buy the tt because of the AWD issue.
That said, I suspect that if you never drove a C2S, you'd be very happy with a C4S. But if you're really into the driving experience, you'll choose a C2S over a C4S, unless your climate favors the AWD.
Finally, I do agree that the 'haunches' of the C4S are really hot. It's an even cooler look than the C2S. But I bought the C2S, would not buy a C4S, and would not even buy the tt because of the AWD issue.
C2S and C4S have a difference of about a 121lb for the coupe and cab according to the brochure. And there is approximately 173 pounds of difference between the coupe and cab. Not sure if that true in real life as well. Most likely, unless one starts modifying the car. The 0-60 are quoted to be the same.
Would it be true than that C4S Coupe is more agile than C2S Cab as it is about a 100lb lighter? Plus added support of the frame.
TaylorColeman, I like your price for your car much better than the same price for mine. After all, it has 10000 miles less under the belt and it has a ton more options, each of which cost a significant amount of coin.
Agree with yrralis1 in that every car's price is negotiable and 60-80K are not burning a hole in my pocket. I can wait. For the buyer, it makes much better sense to negotiate a price first. And buy the car at that price, provided the test drive, CPO, DME will be without major blemishes. If you testdrive first, then you WANT that car NOW, so, of course, what kind of negotiating power do you have left? It is all marketing and psychology from A to Z. I almost don't care what the original price was: it only matters what I think this car is worth right now at that dealer.
Contemplative Newbie
Would it be true than that C4S Coupe is more agile than C2S Cab as it is about a 100lb lighter? Plus added support of the frame.
TaylorColeman, I like your price for your car much better than the same price for mine. After all, it has 10000 miles less under the belt and it has a ton more options, each of which cost a significant amount of coin.
Agree with yrralis1 in that every car's price is negotiable and 60-80K are not burning a hole in my pocket. I can wait. For the buyer, it makes much better sense to negotiate a price first. And buy the car at that price, provided the test drive, CPO, DME will be without major blemishes. If you testdrive first, then you WANT that car NOW, so, of course, what kind of negotiating power do you have left? It is all marketing and psychology from A to Z. I almost don't care what the original price was: it only matters what I think this car is worth right now at that dealer.
Contemplative Newbie
#29
03-24-2009, 08:09 PM
C2S and C4S have a difference of about a 121lb for the coupe and cab according to the brochure. And there is approximately 173 pounds of difference between the coupe and cab. Not sure if that true in real life as well. Most likely, unless one starts modifying the car. The 0-60 are quoted to be the same.
Would it be true than that C4S Coupe is more agile than C2S Cab as it is about a 100lb lighter? Plus added support of the frame.
Would it be true than that C4S Coupe is more agile than C2S Cab as it is about a 100lb lighter? Plus added support of the frame.
Comparing a C4S coupe to a C2S cab is almost an apples to oranges comparison because the cab adds a new twist with the cars major structural difference (convertible) coupled with a different drive .
As for 0-60 times --they are close but the data won't reveal the hands on differences of driving both . Each are great in their own right and it's just a matter of finding the one for you . I have noticed over time that in every case where a friend or poster commented about loving the C4S widebody like you did --he bought the car over the C2S. I think that's where you are headed .
Yep -60-80 K is about right and theres no escaping the price. We all want to drive these cars for free though.
