Anybody have experience with these replica wheels?
#31
01-24-2010, 09:07 PM
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yes, Tech1_Mike that is an excellent point.
When you buy that garbage there is NO standard.
and I'm sorry, I just think anyone buying these wheels is making a mistake. Yes they're cheap, and maybe they look close to the real thing. But do you know what you're buying? NO..
When you buy that garbage there is NO standard.
and I'm sorry, I just think anyone buying these wheels is making a mistake. Yes they're cheap, and maybe they look close to the real thing. But do you know what you're buying? NO..
#32
01-24-2010, 09:17 PM
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Here hattrick:
http://www.lambopower.com/forum/inde...hl=dymag+wheel
I handeled the situation of the broken center for Dymag.
The wheel was broken at a track event in Mexico the customer runs full slicks all the time at the track and these wheels had about 60 full track days on them unfortunately they were not checked after each event and the spoke developed a hairline crack that started from the engraving on the back of the spoke. They stamp the back of the spokes with the model number of the mold. The crack propagated causing the spoke to break in half and transfering the weight load the the remaining spoke as he continued to run the wheel then broke as he was in a straight line braking zone at the end of a staright away.
The damage to the car was minimal about $10k and Dymag paid for the damage and the full set of wheels the car was back at the track in 10 days time and the customer was fully reimbursed.
The magnesium center was sent to a testing lab here in the U.S. to make sure that it had all the properties it should have for cast magnesium the test results came back with passing results and upon inspection of the wheel it was determined that fatigue was what caused the failure.
http://www.lambopower.com/forum/inde...hl=dymag+wheel
I handeled the situation of the broken center for Dymag.
The wheel was broken at a track event in Mexico the customer runs full slicks all the time at the track and these wheels had about 60 full track days on them unfortunately they were not checked after each event and the spoke developed a hairline crack that started from the engraving on the back of the spoke. They stamp the back of the spokes with the model number of the mold. The crack propagated causing the spoke to break in half and transfering the weight load the the remaining spoke as he continued to run the wheel then broke as he was in a straight line braking zone at the end of a staright away.
The damage to the car was minimal about $10k and Dymag paid for the damage and the full set of wheels the car was back at the track in 10 days time and the customer was fully reimbursed.
The magnesium center was sent to a testing lab here in the U.S. to make sure that it had all the properties it should have for cast magnesium the test results came back with passing results and upon inspection of the wheel it was determined that fatigue was what caused the failure.
#33
01-24-2010, 10:01 PM
Great questions. So for those of you who need to be enlightened, here's what I came up with in Wheel Manufacturing 101 before I decided to buy these rims.
Essentially, there are no regulatory bodies or enforcement agencies imposing testing on rims sold or imported in the US. There are, however, a few marking and dimensional requirments implemented by the DOT.
Any standards for performance and testing are VOLUNTARY on the manufacturer. There are organizations that have established recommended practices and specifications for rims but again, it's up to the builder to subscribe. The primary groups who have established these practices and whose stamps are widely found on both OEM and aftermarket wheels are:
SAE--Society of Automtive Engineers
TUV--German Regulatory Agency ( Safety Tested)
ISO--Manufacturing / Management Certification
JWL--Japanese Wheel Council
DOT --Dept of Transportation
The tests recommended (NOT MANDATED) by a few of these groups ( NOT THE DOT ) are limited to 3 areas.
1- Cornering Fatigue Test
2- Radial Fatigue Test
3- Impact Test
I question and seriously doubt any manufacturer, OEM or aftermarket, implements these testing procedures on every rim they build.
The perception that because a wheel is more expensive or that it's OEM therefore it must be better is flawed. Unless you're able to dig into a manufacturers files and see what processes are occuring---- I don't think any of you know what the hell you're driving on.
For the nervous nellies in the safety camp be advised there is far greater risk of a tire blowout at track and highway speeds than there is of catastrophic rim failure.
With that said, I have heard of rim failure occuring on an aftermarket rim. DYMAG--built of magnesium alloy and supposedly over engineered to handle any super car. Over $10gs for a set. An EPIC FAIL. Go Figure.
So Scott997---we're going to put the pipe down now and watch the rest of your bank accounts drain needlessly. Fire Up Buddy !!
Essentially, there are no regulatory bodies or enforcement agencies imposing testing on rims sold or imported in the US. There are, however, a few marking and dimensional requirments implemented by the DOT.
Any standards for performance and testing are VOLUNTARY on the manufacturer. There are organizations that have established recommended practices and specifications for rims but again, it's up to the builder to subscribe. The primary groups who have established these practices and whose stamps are widely found on both OEM and aftermarket wheels are:
SAE--Society of Automtive Engineers
TUV--German Regulatory Agency ( Safety Tested)
ISO--Manufacturing / Management Certification
JWL--Japanese Wheel Council
DOT --Dept of Transportation
The tests recommended (NOT MANDATED) by a few of these groups ( NOT THE DOT ) are limited to 3 areas.
1- Cornering Fatigue Test
2- Radial Fatigue Test
3- Impact Test
I question and seriously doubt any manufacturer, OEM or aftermarket, implements these testing procedures on every rim they build.
The perception that because a wheel is more expensive or that it's OEM therefore it must be better is flawed. Unless you're able to dig into a manufacturers files and see what processes are occuring---- I don't think any of you know what the hell you're driving on.
For the nervous nellies in the safety camp be advised there is far greater risk of a tire blowout at track and highway speeds than there is of catastrophic rim failure.
With that said, I have heard of rim failure occuring on an aftermarket rim. DYMAG--built of magnesium alloy and supposedly over engineered to handle any super car. Over $10gs for a set. An EPIC FAIL. Go Figure.
So Scott997---we're going to put the pipe down now and watch the rest of your bank accounts drain needlessly. Fire Up Buddy !!
Thanks for the very informative post, very appreciated. (sarcasm at the end was funny too, don't tell anybody i laughed.. hehehe)
#34
01-25-2010, 04:53 PM
i've seen plenty of car accidents and mechanical failures in my time, and read even more in the newspaper, seen on the evening news, but i dont think i've ever even once seen or heard of someone say "wheel failure" or "he bought cheep wheels" etc as a cause of accident/death/injury.
Im sure plenty of you have though....
Im sure plenty of you have though....
Get cheap somewhere else would be my advice, but we all have to decide for ourselves how important to consider the safety components of a car. Personally, I have more pleasant things to consider in a fast car than wondering whether some no-name component was built with a conscience.
#35
01-25-2010, 05:09 PM
I have, on tracks. For a single example, a wheel failure is what killed Jim Clarke. And a friend of mine went straight off the track into a rock and dirt berm above turn four at Willow Springs. The left front wheel was broken, the outside one, but of course we can't know whether it broke as he turned in or in the collision with Mother Earth. He didn't live to ask.
Get cheap somewhere else would be my advice, but we all have to decide for ourselves how important to consider the safety components of a car. Personally, I have more pleasant things to consider in a fast car than wondering whether some no-name component was built with a conscience.
Get cheap somewhere else would be my advice, but we all have to decide for ourselves how important to consider the safety components of a car. Personally, I have more pleasant things to consider in a fast car than wondering whether some no-name component was built with a conscience.
Uhm..
I believe the quest for lightweight is NOT the best way to keep the safety aspect as #1 consideration.
It's quite the opposite...
The last experience i had with lightweigt madness is with mountain bikes. Titanium, carbon, aluminum, etc.. was of every discussions but sometimes for bad reasons. I heard so many stories about carbon/aluminum frames delaminating, cracking, etc.. that were the cause of very bad accidents while the "cheap & heavy" bikes were solid like rock even after years of downhill rides.
Cheap = Dangerous
and
Expensive = Safer ?
I don't think so.
You can buy expensive wheels for many justified reasons but not that one.
#36
01-25-2010, 05:15 PM
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I think a "replica" for street use would be fine. Any track time or DE events would make me exclude this type of wheel. Just never know and I'm not one to want to find out.
#37
01-25-2010, 05:27 PM
Uhm..
I believe the quest for lightweight is NOT the best way to keep the safety aspect as #1 consideration.
It's quite the opposite...
The last experience i had with lightweigt madness is with mountain bikes. Titanium, carbon, aluminum, etc.. was of every discussions but sometimes for bad reasons. I heard so many stories about carbon/aluminum frames delaminating, cracking, etc.. that were the cause of very bad accidents while the "cheap & heavy" bikes were solid like rock even after years of downhill rides.
Cheap = Dangerous
and
Expensive = Safer ?
I don't think so.
You can buy expensive wheels for many justified reasons but not that one.
I believe the quest for lightweight is NOT the best way to keep the safety aspect as #1 consideration.
It's quite the opposite...
The last experience i had with lightweigt madness is with mountain bikes. Titanium, carbon, aluminum, etc.. was of every discussions but sometimes for bad reasons. I heard so many stories about carbon/aluminum frames delaminating, cracking, etc.. that were the cause of very bad accidents while the "cheap & heavy" bikes were solid like rock even after years of downhill rides.
Cheap = Dangerous
and
Expensive = Safer ?
I don't think so.
You can buy expensive wheels for many justified reasons but not that one.
I just have to disagree. Safety is a function of engineering, quality manufacturing and rock-solid testing. We manufacture wheels to published standards like SAE, TUV and JWL. As does any REPUTABLE company.
The issue isn't about cheap. There are some very fine low-cost wheels out there, like the new flow-formed OZs from Tire Rack. The OZs are TUV certified.
The issue is knowing what the hell you are doing and building quality wheels that perform to published standards. What pisses me off are the guys who steal other people's designs, make them in another country with no engineering or testing (and no intellectual property laws) and bring them back here and pass them off as "Replicas". If you buy that crap, you get just what you deserve. It's stealing, and no amount of sugar coating will change that.
Pursuing a lightweight solution isn't inherently unsafe, just as it isn't inherently safe. I recommend that you do your homework and make an intelligent choice. Ask for test data. Ask for proof of insurance. Buy from someone reputable who will be around to help you if you have a problem.
Hey, it's only your Porsche we're talking about.
#38
01-25-2010, 06:16 PM
Jon,
I just have to disagree. Safety is a function of engineering, quality manufacturing and rock-solid testing. We manufacture wheels to published standards like SAE, TUV and JWL. As does any REPUTABLE company.
The issue isn't about cheap. There are some very fine low-cost wheels out there, like the new flow-formed OZs from Tire Rack. The OZs are TUV certified.
The issue is knowing what the hell you are doing and building quality wheels that perform to published standards. What pisses me off are the guys who steal other people's designs, make them in another country with no engineering or testing (and no intellectual property laws) and bring them back here and pass them off as "Replicas". If you buy that crap, you get just what you deserve. It's stealing, and no amount of sugar coating will change that.
Pursuing a lightweight solution isn't inherently unsafe, just as it isn't inherently safe. I recommend that you do your homework and make an intelligent choice. Ask for test data. Ask for proof of insurance. Buy from someone reputable who will be around to help you if you have a problem.
Hey, it's only your Porsche we're talking about.
I just have to disagree. Safety is a function of engineering, quality manufacturing and rock-solid testing. We manufacture wheels to published standards like SAE, TUV and JWL. As does any REPUTABLE company.
The issue isn't about cheap. There are some very fine low-cost wheels out there, like the new flow-formed OZs from Tire Rack. The OZs are TUV certified.
The issue is knowing what the hell you are doing and building quality wheels that perform to published standards. What pisses me off are the guys who steal other people's designs, make them in another country with no engineering or testing (and no intellectual property laws) and bring them back here and pass them off as "Replicas". If you buy that crap, you get just what you deserve. It's stealing, and no amount of sugar coating will change that.
Pursuing a lightweight solution isn't inherently unsafe, just as it isn't inherently safe. I recommend that you do your homework and make an intelligent choice. Ask for test data. Ask for proof of insurance. Buy from someone reputable who will be around to help you if you have a problem.
Hey, it's only your Porsche we're talking about.
First i would like to say that i'm not defending the China made products, i perfectly know what are the pros and cons because i'm in import business.
However, some people tend to make shortcuts in their mind: China = Bad.
It's as untrue and as simple-minded as USA = fat people.
Of course there is a lot of bad quality products from China and there is a lot of fat people in USA. But there is also a lot of slim womens in California ;-)
Thing is: it's a fact that high-end product/service company's, of any kind, WILL try to capitalize on that fear/insecurity about low quality perception with cheap stuff. I mean.. Part of their incomes are directly based on that.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that all companies in high-end market are dishonest, but they will surely not push their potential customers in the mass market arms!
Like i said, saving weight on wheels IS a good reason to buy expensive wheels IF you are serious about track racing (don't expect a 50whp-like upgrade, though)
It's also a good reason to buy if the proud-of-ownership thing makes you feel good.
And it's a good reason if you find a model and finish that suits your tastes better.
But for security reasons ? Well, to be honest i would be more worried to use some kind of extreme carbon-made lightweight wheels or forged wheels designed to save every grams possible than i could be with heavy, made-in-china, gravity casting (or low-pressure) wheels.
In many sports the lightweight quest shows exemples of failure, despite the facts that years of R&D were behind.
#40
01-25-2010, 06:25 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Woodbridge Virginia
Posts: 510
Rep Power: 58 Jon,
I just have to disagree. Safety is a function of engineering, quality manufacturing and rock-solid testing. We manufacture wheels to published standards like SAE, TUV and JWL. As does any REPUTABLE company.
The issue isn't about cheap. There are some very fine low-cost wheels out there, like the new flow-formed OZs from Tire Rack. The OZs are TUV certified.
The issue is knowing what the hell you are doing and building quality wheels that perform to published standards. What pisses me off are the guys who steal other people's designs, make them in another country with no engineering or testing (and no intellectual property laws) and bring them back here and pass them off as "Replicas". If you buy that crap, you get just what you deserve. It's stealing, and no amount of sugar coating will change that.
Pursuing a lightweight solution isn't inherently unsafe, just as it isn't inherently safe. I recommend that you do your homework and make an intelligent choice. Ask for test data. Ask for proof of insurance. Buy from someone reputable who will be around to help you if you have a problem.
Hey, it's only your Porsche we're talking about.
I just have to disagree. Safety is a function of engineering, quality manufacturing and rock-solid testing. We manufacture wheels to published standards like SAE, TUV and JWL. As does any REPUTABLE company.
The issue isn't about cheap. There are some very fine low-cost wheels out there, like the new flow-formed OZs from Tire Rack. The OZs are TUV certified.
The issue is knowing what the hell you are doing and building quality wheels that perform to published standards. What pisses me off are the guys who steal other people's designs, make them in another country with no engineering or testing (and no intellectual property laws) and bring them back here and pass them off as "Replicas". If you buy that crap, you get just what you deserve. It's stealing, and no amount of sugar coating will change that.
Pursuing a lightweight solution isn't inherently unsafe, just as it isn't inherently safe. I recommend that you do your homework and make an intelligent choice. Ask for test data. Ask for proof of insurance. Buy from someone reputable who will be around to help you if you have a problem.
Hey, it's only your Porsche we're talking about.
Last edited by jamie furman; 01-25-2010 at 06:33 PM.
#41
01-25-2010, 06:45 PM
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The nice part about the replica is that the engineering is taken from the Porsche wheel which we can assume has sound engineering behind it. Engineering is the most important part of the three things you mentioned. You can have great quality based on crappy engineering and you still have crap. Give China a little credit that they know how to cast parts and minimize porosity as good as anybody else.
#42
01-25-2010, 06:54 PM
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ha lots of excuses for being cheap and compromising on safety. When you buy this garbage there is no standard. You want to buy replicas go ahead, they are cheap rip offs. I assume you buy your wives and girlfriends fake hand bags as well? You wear cheap suits? Fake watches? LOSERS!
#43
01-25-2010, 07:00 PM
The nice part about the replica is that the engineering is taken from the Porsche wheel which we can assume has sound engineering behind it. Engineering is the most important part of the three things you mentioned. You can have great quality based on crappy engineering and you still have crap. Give China a little credit that they know how to cast parts and minimize porosity as good as anybody else.
#44
01-25-2010, 07:11 PM
Guys,
I think i'll show you an exemple based on real life experience.
Car: Porsche 911SC '78, strosek body kit (modified)
Wheels: Made in China 20 inches low-pressure casting (DOT), low cost, pretty heavy (27-32 lbs front & rear).
Tires: Extreme low profile 285-25-20 and 225-30-20 (which is actually the thinnest tire's sidewall that exists on the market -correct me if i'm wrong-)
Playground: http://montreal.about.com/od/montrea...tholes_FAQ.htm
I believe this is a very good recipe to get problems. To say the least..
Of course, i try to be cautious and avoid the potholes the best i can. But sometimes you hit one. And that one can be real bad, especially with that kind of vintage car mounted with such wheels/tires.
See the result:
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/373080...rglass-911.jpg
Saying that it was a big hit is an understatement. I was actually shocked when that happened and felt pain in my neck for days. As you can see in the picture, the suspension bottomed out so badly that fiberglass cracked and a piece of tire was detached.
Needless to say i was worried about the wheels. I mean, i was sure few seconds after the hit i couldnt drive the car anymore. Not only the car was going perfectly well but i had the wheels inspected (of course) and... No damage. No cracking. No bending. Niet, nada. It doesnt shake on highway and i don't sense anything that makes me feel in danger.
It doesnt prove that made-in-china wheels are all that reliable, of course. But that very experience show me something: inexpensive but well-made products DO exist.
Edit: the chinese manufacturer that my wheels come from makes DOT-JWL and TUV wheels.
I think i'll show you an exemple based on real life experience.
Car: Porsche 911SC '78, strosek body kit (modified)
Wheels: Made in China 20 inches low-pressure casting (DOT), low cost, pretty heavy (27-32 lbs front & rear).
Tires: Extreme low profile 285-25-20 and 225-30-20 (which is actually the thinnest tire's sidewall that exists on the market -correct me if i'm wrong-)
Playground: http://montreal.about.com/od/montrea...tholes_FAQ.htm
I believe this is a very good recipe to get problems. To say the least..
Of course, i try to be cautious and avoid the potholes the best i can. But sometimes you hit one. And that one can be real bad, especially with that kind of vintage car mounted with such wheels/tires.
See the result:
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/373080...rglass-911.jpg
Saying that it was a big hit is an understatement. I was actually shocked when that happened and felt pain in my neck for days. As you can see in the picture, the suspension bottomed out so badly that fiberglass cracked and a piece of tire was detached.
Needless to say i was worried about the wheels. I mean, i was sure few seconds after the hit i couldnt drive the car anymore. Not only the car was going perfectly well but i had the wheels inspected (of course) and... No damage. No cracking. No bending. Niet, nada. It doesnt shake on highway and i don't sense anything that makes me feel in danger.
It doesnt prove that made-in-china wheels are all that reliable, of course. But that very experience show me something: inexpensive but well-made products DO exist.
Edit: the chinese manufacturer that my wheels come from makes DOT-JWL and TUV wheels.
Last edited by jon8; 01-25-2010 at 08:58 PM.
#45
01-26-2010, 03:55 AM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Eastern Mobotsuland
Posts: 214
Rep Power: 30 ha lots of excuses for being cheap and compromising on safety. When you buy this garbage there is no standard. You want to buy replicas go ahead, they are cheap rip offs. I assume you buy your wives and girlfriends fake hand bags as well? You wear cheap suits? Fake watches? LOSERS!