I can't imagine anyone owning a 'vert for tracking, so I don't understand your point other than the obvious added weight and loss in rigidity - the latter doesn't mean squat on the street, eh? We've been down this road before - ad nauseum. There's clearly distinct utility with both, and of course the 'vert weighs more, although I thought then, as I do today, they look better - my opinion.

However, in the spirit of our bantering from years past, If I would have wanted a dual purpose car as a track car, I would have stayed with Porsche back then, as I owned several 911s previously, and since, and had a lot of fun auto-x and light track duty. Having stating this, friend, you're equating my prior M3 'vert with others.

With all due respect, quite frankly, given equal driving skills on the track, my prior M3 would have smoked your car on the track, and without any doubt in my mind, it would have blown your doors off the track - all 500+ horses, 438 RWHP, 386 RWTQ, with plenty of low to mid range torque given I ran an ASA blower.

Aside from the numbers, I had a really good kill rate against coupes, and given some of you all had this hangup about 'verts, it made the "kill" that much sweeter. I can say they didn't know any better, or perhaps like you, they mayve thought the weight item would be a big factor, until they experienced my pulling away by bus-lengths.

I didn't buy the M3 for its track prowess.

 

No, it's hugely noticeable on the street, in every corner. Do you really not thing you could feel the difference between a CSL and M3 coupe on the street? Because that's a smaller weight difference than M3 coupe vs M3 vert, and that's before the floppy chassis comes into play.

Can you feel when you have a passenger in the car? I know I can, not at all insignificant. It'll well more than that. Again, before the floppy chassis.

Your prior M3 would have overheated on the track, like all supercharged M3's once their drivers get any pace.

And if you're comparing to my M3, it's < 3100 lbs (still has full interior), 365 rwhp (NA, so it's happy on track all day long) and on Ohlins, with brembos, on lightweight 18s with sticky tires. If you think your 700 lb heavier vert would have kept up... you clearly haven't spent much time on track.

I agree it may have pulled on me on the highway. Do we care about that? If so, neither the M3 nor a non turbo 911 is the right choice of car :P

edit: Just realized you're in texas... and last time I was in texas, I was kind of overwhelmed by the lack of corners anywhere. That could explain our different experience-- in a world without corners, I, too, probably wouldn't mind the vert...

 

I've never understood your hangups, but as usual, Ian, you're always good for a laugh.

 

Interesting, I just did the same. Went from an E46 to a 997.1S. I agree with much of what has already been said. Move along, the 911 isn't for you. If you can't tell a difference, then there is either something wrong with you or the car. For me there was an immediate difference, and it wasn't just a slight one.

You mention 0-60 times as being .3-.5 secs difference. I know it is kind of cliche to magazine race, but in reality the mags show closer to a .7-1.0 sec difference (I can give you references if you'd like) but the times on the 911 are usually 3.9 to 4.3 (with several 4.0 times). The times for the e46 are 4.5 (there is only 1 such time) and then from there it is 4.65 to 4.9. Of course this is stock for stock. Comparing modded vs stock is stupid.

I also agree 100% with obidian, why the HELL do people talk and worry so much about performance, tenths of seconds accel times, etc and even bother to talk about a Vert in the same sentance? Why? I just never understand it. It isn't an argument at all, it is simply physics and facts that tell us that a Vert can NEVER compete with a coupe, PERIOD!!!! Of course this is talking about cars that are set up the same (again, stupid to compare a modded vs stock, I don't care if you have a 900 hp vert, who cares if it can beat 99% of the coupes, the reality is that with the SAME mods, the coupe would still win.) Why is this so hard to understand? Vert is much heavier and less torsional rigidity. This is the problem. As mentioned, the difference between the Vert and the standard coupe is Larger than going from the standard Coupe to the CSL. I just never understand why people spend so much time arguing performance and caring so much about it, while also caring about getting a freakin sun tan and having a damn tent on the top of the car. If I am just bluntly honest, to me, separate sun bathing (I spend plenty of time surfing, so I don't need to cruise Laguna Beach in a vert) and high performance cars. Plus, they look like HELL. The only people impressed by Verts are the guys that don't care about the ultimate performance of a car.

That being said, the 997S and the CSL are very close in performance, which they should be as the CSL is 350 HP and the 997S 355 hp. The 997S wt is 3075lbs and the CSL is very similar. Again, it all comes back to physics.

 

^not that it really matters, but the csl is 360hp.

 

Rod - I wasn't arguing tracking v. enjoying the beast on the street.

Before test driving the 'vert for an entire day, given the dealer who sold me the 'vert was the same I bought the 996 from that had the engine let loose at 38k. I also drove the M3 coupe for an entire day. It was clear the coupe was more rigid and lighter, but that's not why I selected the 'Vert over the coupe, especially since I was coming off my second 911 coupe, and I found the open-air great.

I did, however, miss the performance. Yup, I went through the usual bolt-on mods, and that just didn't do it - ALL BS. Would I opt for another 'vert, other than buying mine back from the current owner - likely not unless it's a Ferrari. But, given at the time I was all in, I went F/I. That's when I got the attention of the coupe owners on the forums, Obioban, aka, Ian. The little fella has this hang-up, not sure what's his insecurity is, other than I would have blown his doors and fenders off.

Just the same, there's no way in H*LL I'd ever try and track a vert, especially an M3 given their distinctive weight disadvantage and loss of rigidity. This being said, it was a street car, and given it's prowess and outperforming at this venue other bolt-on stockers like his, barring a HPF StageII car, which by the way, mine outperformed a stage I, street fuel, someone like Ian knows I would have smoked his A$S, BADLY. That's what bothers the little fella - nearly 6 years later. His recent performance numbers are highly highly questionable, and likely not on a Dynojet, but it would still pale in comparison, and the chump knows it.

He's finally graduated to an M3Forum Moderator, dealing with 3rd and 4th generation owners, bored no doubt, unlike way back in the day, and still driving his aged, slowed, and archaic, E46 M3.

With regard to the "overheating" issues, there's a reason I went with ESS' CFR500 series setup - it was "track proven". It was, afterall, the F/I setup that highly contributed to having M3 CSL, "LOADED", set as the record-holder for Nürburgring. Did this make my 'Vert "Loaded" - NO WAY, in comparison it would have been like hauling a pair of jet-skis, but it was very very quick, especially low to mid range, and sufficient enough to blow IBOBAN away by BUS LENGTHS. Ian just can't HANDLE THE TRUTH. Take a pill, little fella. PFFT.

DREAM ON, IAN - AND THIS IS ON LOW BOOST, LITTLE FELLA

Here's Base



Here's Optimum - miss it



Want to catch "LOADED" on the "ring" OVERHEATING? UH-HUH - PFFT



I'm sure you'll post this on M3 Forum, chump. Now let this be a lesson to you. Move on.

 

Good God! I remember watching that video nearly 10 years ago. I'm still in awe of the sound, the car's responsiveness, and that driver's talent. Crazy.

 

Ho boy. Someone's all riled up, again. I got a "chump", "little fella", and "move on", all in one post. Sadly I'm a slow with learning my "lessons"

-loaded CSL was indeed, indeed, able to make it through 1 lap of the ring without overheating with the supercharger, when his goal was to set a ring lap time. Now that he's changed the focus of the car to events that require more than one lap, it is no longer supercharged.

-my numbers are indeed from a dynojet (in SAE mode), though that seems like a weird way to try to undermine me, since dynojets are the highest reading commonly accepted dyno. Seems like it would have made more sense to say something like, "yeah, but those numbers are from a dynojet, which everyone knows reads high-- not a mustang dyno"

-the power my car is outputting is in no way exceptional. Since you left, the MSS54(HP) has been opensourced, which has vastly improved the tuning situation/quality. It's also given us all sorts of awesome features on the stock ECU, such as multiple maps (switchable via the stock steering wheel controls, with while map you're on indicated on the cluster (e.g. for different octanes)), MAP/load based engine management (so the ecu still knows what going on while running in alpha N mode, as the CSL did), pit lane speed limiters, live data logging (which alone makes for much better tunes), etc. There are many cars making as much/more power than mine, as we'll likely have 2 cars hitting 400 rwhp (SAE dynojet) before this summer, on a street (and track) friendly NA engines.

-the reason I called you out back then on the vert is the same as now. You came into this thread comparing the dynamic of a 911 coupe to an e46 M3 vert. The e46 M3 vert is pretty dynamically terrible, compared to the coupe, so your impression of how they compare isn't particularly valid for people comparing a M3 coupe to 911. Similarly, back in the day you were always pushing the vert agenda on perspective M3 owners debating between a coupe and vert. They, too, should not have been mislead when deciding which to buy based on your highly heated (as seen above), but factually inaccurate, view. My goal, then and now, is to not have people making decisions based on misinformation.

-I mentioned tracking because you said your car would have smoked mine on track, given equal drivers. Nope.

-I'm under no impression that my e46 M3 is going to be any sort of street racing champion. Hell, my own DD M5 would beat my M3 in a street race. That has never been what the car is about, nor what it's good at (nor are non Turbo 911s, for that matter). It's also never been something you've been able to comprehend. But, kudos to you for all the "*** smoking."

 

wait am I on Bimmerpost???






lol

 

I was just going to say the same thing haha. I noticed your screen name (I had an AP2 brand new in 2006, miss it a lot), the guys on S2KI don't behave this way even lol.

OP is being very stubborn. I mean he does deserve some credibility having owned a 996TT, but the fact that he can't digest the chassis dynamics of an E46 M3 convertible being inferior is a little disturbing. I had 3 of them, and composed it wasn't. Handling was definitely not that car's forte.

 

[QUOTE=AP1to911;4468723]wait am I on Bimmerpost???


No. You are in the Twilight Zone.

 

Sorry but no point to compare, the 911 is much better. As long as the money is no issue just dump the M3. I've had both and I'd say there is no real comparison.

 

I think the e46 m3 is a gem, especially if equipped with a manual and in coupe (not convertable) form. Whenever I see a rare well kept example on the road, I am very impressed.
I realize the OP is comparing convertables. For that I guess I have little if anything to say; but had the discussion been about coupes... I don't think it would be an easy decision at all.

I can tell you, that I've owned a 2008 e90 335i with manual. It was lovely to look at and it drove lovely too! I remember test driving a used stock 2006 C2S with very little miles on it at the time; and I was shocked at my urge to get back to my 335. That 911 felt ... less is the word that comes to mind. Yes, Less, in many respects. From the typically clunky sound of a Porsche door slamming closed, to the unrefined engine sound in the cabin of that c2s. I was also unimpressed with its lacking low end torque compared to the 335. There were other things.. (I don't know, maybe there was something wrong with the car?...but that was my honest impression).. But I'd like to add that, I don't get that impression comparing a 911 with the e90 m3 or even the current m4. After mid 2008, new models from BMW began to exhibit a diminished feel. Many say due to their efforts to appease those who value comfort over a visceral driving experience. BMW remains an excellent car but has deviated too far (for my taste) from their original, more purist, heritage. It is certainly true what everybody is saying; BMW has lost part of their way. I hope they find it again Soon!

Disclaimer: IMO, the 997.2 C2S has a different feel (compared to the 997.1). I seriously doubt anyone would regret getting a 997.2 coming from any BMW.. I curiously feel or see None of the grievances I mentioned above with that 06 c2s. The experience I'm having with my 2012 GTS for example, is nothing short of near complete satisfaction and in some instances my expectations over exceeded. (Yes, I still think the door closes with a goofy clunk sound but that's quite OK given everything else.)

So, yes the 911 is a better performer...but will a 911 replace the emotional and objective connectedness you have with your e46 m3? That is something you'd need to carefully consider. You might want to try out a 911 turbo if a dramatic power difference is your priority.

 

Kind of an odd comment given the context. The "feel" isn't all that different and if anything the 997.1 is a little more "raw". And believe me, going from an e46 m3 to "just" a 997.1 is a pretty big jump. Don't ask me how I know.




One of these is for sale and the other isn't. Take a guess which is which.

 

I guess I'm going by my personal impressions that resulted from test driving a 997.1 c2s in comparison to a 2008 335i. I found the c2s to be too raw at the time in comparison.. to the point of feeling "less".. Maybe it was due to a poorly maintained c2s? When i compared another 997.1 c2s to the same year (2008) e92 m3, I found the m3 to be blunt (diminished feel). So the 2008 335 was refined, had feel, and had superior low end torque which becomes the standard when you get used to it on a daily. Believe me, I was very perplexed to have found the 335i to be the optimal of those cars at the time.

Fast foward to 2009+ . I found that All BMWs suffered in feel (even the new 335i's throttle response and steering feel was diminished). I remember test driving a brand new 997.2 C2s at the Porches dealership in San Diego. It was both superbly refined yet with abundant feel AND with raw and visceral characteristics.

By 2011, the GTS was just icing on the cake.

Btw, I've never compared an e46 m3 to a 911.
And, these are only my honest opinions. Others might feel differently