I was just over yesterday having a look at my local dealer's. They're offering it up for $298K. Frankly, I was surprised, as I had been told 1) I couldn't order one because I don't already own an AM and 2) even if I could, they've been "spoken for". So, I already know my dealer is just like any other car salesman no matter how much spit and polish.

However, that said, it really is a gorgeous car. I would have preferred the diamond stitching for the interior (a la Bond's Casino Royale car), though. And, for that price, I think we ought to have gotten it.

Periodically, I toy with buying an AM. The last go around was for a Vanquish S. Just couldn't get there. The DBS is even more purposeful but has an elegance the Vanq doesn't. Anyway, at over $300K out the door, they can keep it for a while. In these uncertain economic times, I think it will be sitting for quite a long time.

BTW, had I bought the Vanq S, I'd already have lost nearly $50K in depreciation. The rule with AM's is wait, wait and then wait some more. Prices will always decline. The DBS could, may or might be different due to their semi-"limited" production schedule. But, honestly, I seriously doubt the cars will hold value. I realize it's a totally different car, but look how fast and far the CLK 63 Black Series has come off. I'll wait another 6 months and buy a used BS for 1/3rd of the DBS. I'll probably be 90% as happy with the BS as I would with the DBS.

CW

 

Unfortunately everyone has this mentallity. There is only one car company that holds it value like glue... and that's Ferrari. Aston's don't have much of a different depriciation from that of a Porsche or a Bentley or SOME Lamborghini's. The DBS is by far one of the most incredible driving experiences that Aston has ever offered! BUT... like you said.. for $265k you would hope so!! It's a very different car from a DB9 even a DB9 with a sports pack.

 

As a long time Ferrari owner, I will only agree with you somewhat regarding this statement. There are, most assuredly, some Ferraris that have held their value, and there are fewer that have appreciated dramatically. However, the mass-produced Ferraris have not held up well at all. For the most part the 3xx series has not held their values. Admittedly, some are over 30 years old and some are just a couple. But, except for the Stradale, most of the 308/328/348/355 and 360 family have depreciated steadily and deeply. One can find lots of cars under $50K that started life well above that.

Now, if you're talking true, supercar limited production runs (288, F40, F50 and Enzos), many prices languished for a long time until only the last few years. For example, up until just a couple of years ago, I could buy an F40 under the original sticker. 288s and F50s were a bit of a different situation as there really were so few of them, but have also come on strong over the same time period. The Enzo is still relatively new and still the hot car to have. How it does over the long term still remains to be seen. I suspect much of this price run-up was a direct result of plentiful and inexpensive credit, which has disappeared, and, given the current economic issues we shall be facing, I expect most everything to come down. The recent Leggenda e Passione Ferrari auction at Maranello run by RM was, save two examples, not a success. While the press focused on the record-setting price for the Ex-Coburn California Spyder (the 250 LM did well, too), if you look at the results for the rest of the field, it was a disappointment.

There are other limited production runs, of course. The Barchetta, Stradale, Scuderia, 355 Fiorano Edition and 348 Serie Speciale. So far, the mixed evidence suggests that they hold their value better, but they can and do depreciate, though not as deeply as their undistinguished brethren.

Now, if you want to talk about the classics in the Ferrari family, there really are so few of the important, collectible cars that they'll almost always be unobtainable. However, have you ever tried to price a 250 GTE? It won't break the bank. That's why some are cut up and turned into 250 GTO replicas. So, if you had intended to invest way back when, there were probably roughly only 30-40 models of Ferrari you'd want to buy and have in your collection. That said, they've appreciated amazingly. I'm glad I bought a few over the years. I will say that I will likely be priced out of the market forever on the truly cornerstone collection cars, though. 250 GTOs, 330 P2/3, 250 LMs, 250 TRs, 250 SWBs, and 250 GT S/LWB Californias, for example.

As far as the AMs go, though, there may be a few older cars that have appreciated nicely (DB4s, DB5s and some of the rare race cars), and recent limited production run cars have seemed to hold their value somewhat (DB AR1). I just don't know if time will be kind to the DBS. I love it. LOVE it. But, I just keep seeing a DB9. And, if I really can't see the justification, I seriously doubt others will, either.

CW

 

First, very insightful post. Appreciate the first hand feedback from an Fcar owner.

Having said that, is the end of your statement really fair? Isn't that similar to saying I can't help but look at a 360 CS and help but see a 360, or see a F430 S and see a F430?

I realize they retain the name, so maybe it's easier to say they are similar, whereas the DBS is supposed to be different altogether from the DB9.

<shrug> I guess I'm 50/50.

 

As to the first part, I do only see hotted-up 360s and 430s in the Stradale and Scuderia. Albeit well-done, they do share the same basics. While it's all in the eyes of the beholder, I own a Stradale and certainly think very highly of it, but it's still "just" a 360 to me. For me, it will be one of the "keepers" and will remain, but I suspect you'll see their market prices drop as the Scuderias become more readily available. It won't be the "hot" car to have any longer. Will it ever appreciate? It's just too early to tell. It does seem as if every Ferrari enjoys a "honeymoon" period (430 spyder, Scud, 599, Enzo, Stradale, etc.) when it is first introduced. It's "hot" and a "must have". I think people get into these cars because they want a ferrari, and want the latest and greatest. They'll pay a big premium to be the first guy on the block to get one. Unfortunately, many get into these cars without really knowing what they're in for. And, for the most part, you buy these cars without so much as a test drive. For example, if the dealer called and asked you if you wanted a Scuderia allocation, you just said yes long before they were ever even available. And, my close-to-the-factory friend is always telling me how the next car in development is SO much better than the current hardware. Whatever. The truth is that there are plenty of Ferrari Kool-Aid drinkers. They're great cars, but my passion for them is steadily waning due to Ferrari's own attitude, policies, demands, and, worse, products. Where I once saw a quixotic manufacturer who had charisma (which had to go a long way when you're getting BIG maintenance bills), I now see a corporation singularly set on one thing: taking money out of my wallet through absurd strategies and over-the-top merchandising. Anyway, I could go on for hours on this without getting to your second point.

The DBS shares a significant amount of DNA with the DB9. Maybe 85%? I don't know. But, while there are certainly upgrades, improvements and the extensive use of very expensive weight-saving materials, I do see a DB9. A nicely improved DB9 and even, dare I say, a bad-a$$ DB9, but notwithstanding AM's marketing spin a DB9 nonetheless. I suspect marketing it as an "entirely different car" is the only way they could justify the premium markup over the standard DB9. $298K?! That's Vanquish territory, and that was the last of the truly hand-built AMs from Newport Pagnell. Anyway, I just try not to get caught up in the spin or buzz. The DBS is a better car, but I can't say it's SO much better than the DB9. Different purposes. Regardless, to each their own. If I had a spare few million quid lying around, I'd likely take it home and park it next to the Stradale and other garage mates. However, my sights are set (at 1/3rd the tax) for the time being on the CLK63 BS. But, it's a luxury to be able to have these conundrums, and don't let my opinions sway you.

And, not to get snippy (but as a sidebar), but why don't they just call a key a key? It's not an Emotional Control Unit, or whatever they're calling it. That's a key. Their pretension is astounding, unclever and just plain silly.

Anyway, that's for another thread.

CW

 

Tuesday, May 20, 2008

On May 16, 2008 I had the opportunity to inspect and test drive the DBS. In addition I also talked to a highly respected factory trained technician who works on many different kinds of cars. In addition he is a car fanatic, and knows how to drive. I also talked to AM reps that were part of the driving presentation. The information below is from information obtained and personal evaluation. While many people are very awed by this car, my opinion seems to vary.

Engineering Overview:

The DB9 was the start of the new Aston VH platform from which all of the present cars are produced. Changes are slight through the years with small improvements. It is my understanding that the V8s were an improvement in engineering and that the DBS is a further improvement in build quality and engineering. Some of these improvements have no effect from the owners and drivers contact with the car. Many will make future cost of production lower and long term serviceability less timely. Many of the changes improve on the car to some extent, however in the case of the DB9 these are very small and somewhat subjective; the change in the shape of the seat from earlier cars.

The DBS has changes in the attachment of the rear suspension, upper control arms, bushings and cross bar supports for steering column. Some of this is also shared with the 09 DB9s. Most know the changes in power outputs and weight reduction so I won’t go into that here. The brakes are a big improvement in feel over the standard on the DB9. My guess is that stopping distances will be reduced mostly due to changes in the tires. Since the engine has similar tuning to the DB9 in reference to the power band, the extra output is not very recognizable from the driver’s seat, however the changes in rate of acceleration is great. The change in the exhaust system give much improved sound while retaining livability at cruise settings. The DBS also differs from the DB9 in the shape of the roof and the slope of the wind screen. This seems well done for the sake of function.

Body work will have some effect on the car over 100 mph, however below that number; I doubt that anyone will be able to tell the difference. I would surmise that 80% is for cosmetic affects and marketing with 20% being driven by function. This is why some people feel this looks like an added kit while, in fact, it has many variations to the DB9. Steering ratio seems faster than DB9 and slower than DB9 with SPD with overall weight being lower and feel being very slightly better than SPD equipped cars.

The single biggest change is due to the spring and shock selection. Since these have multiple automatic adjustments in the standard setting, the ride is improved by a large margin while cruising down the highway. The adjustments are not noticeable while driving so ability when pushing the car close to the limit is mostly retained. The DBS is more compliant than a standard DB9 and less harsh than a SPD equipped car when in its track mode. Over all, the DBS rides and handles better than any of their other cars to date while giving a relatively quiet and comfortable ride when driven gently.

The manual transmission is probably the best that I have ever driven with the Honda S2000 being close.

Driving:

From the drivers seat this is a very satisfying and impressive car to drive, delivering massive amounts of performance. It is faster in the corners than the other cars and feed back in the firmest setting give enough increased communication that I feel that I can go farther, safely, into the capabilities of the car than the DB9 with SPD. I took the DBS close to 9/10s in a few areas where I would have probably held my own car back a little due to communication issues. The overall performance is a lot better; however this would be mostly noticeable in lap times, not driver satisfaction.

When introduced to AM technicians they let them drive a standard DBD and then the DBS so the improvements in handling and cornering were very dramatic in comparison. This would have been much less noticeable if SPD equipped DB9s were present.

While the manual transmission is very good, I do not feel that it matches well with the overall character of the car, seeming somehow out of place. I have a lot of experience with manuals and was able to heal toe and rev match downshifts fairly well, however left foot breaking in conjunction with a good paddle shifted box seems more in matching with the cars character and may make performance more easily accessible. I realize this is a personal choice, but feel if two cars were driven back to back with different transmissions, the paddle box would get more nods.

Fit and finish:

All three of the DBSs that I saw were early production cars with the car which I drove being number 20; light silver with red interior. Fit was lacking is some areas. The carbon fiber appears to be of high quality; however the mat finish inside of the car looks out of place and, for lack of a better word, cheap.

Intangibles:

When you get to this level of automobiles, subject-ability becomes a very large part of the decision. While this is a very good car it seems to lack something that is difficult to put a finger on. It lacks the character and soul of the Vanquish and seems less complete than my DB9 which I had parked within a few feet of the DBSs. Driving off in my DB9 added even more disappointment to the DBS.

It seems as though AM is trying so hard to impress that much of the car seems to be designed with hype for the purpose of attracting buyers, rather than building a useful and artful creation; detracting from an otherwise great automobile. Additional levels of theatrics in their marketing presentation and material somehow makes the lack of harmony in design more noticeable. The interior seems as though they added some flash, including the Emotional Control Unit, which is meant to impress, but somehow offends. Changes in other controls, leaves me with the same feeling with many of the changes seeming for the sake of change instead of for function or attractiveness. I believe most buyers at this level have a little more refinement and may find this approach distasteful.

Other factors weigh in personally. I get great enjoyment out of tapping a car’s capability and enjoy more than anything the feel and feedback I get from a car. The DBS seems to do this as well as any car, however since this is meant to be a road car, not a track car, most of your time is spent at lower speeds or in traffic. In this environment more richness on the interior along with more refinement on the inside and out would be a better match for me personally.

While the DBS may miss the mark mostly in harmony of design it some how leaves me very cold and saddens me for the sake of the brand. My order spot will be open for others who will no doubt have a different opinion.

 

Sloopy,

Many thanks for your indepth discription of what you learned from your experience. Much of your vehicle specifics were on the ball, however, if you don't mind, I'd like to point of some things that you said which were not exactly accurate.

DBS's suspension is completely different from that of a 2008 OR a 2009 DB9 with or without a Sports Package. The DBS uses dampners that are ajustable through the drivers imput. The car defaults to "comfort" setting with the hydraulic fluid flowing freely though the pistons. This mode is also the more you want for highway driving. When the driver presses a button the suspension stiffens completely, closing a valve, preventing the fluid to flow a easily as it does on the default (start up) mode. This is great for minimal lateral movement

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sloopy

The brakes are a big improvement in feel over the standard on the DB9. My guess is that stopping distances will be reduced mostly due to changes in the tires.

The carbon cermaic brakes are the main source in stopping power

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sloopy

Since the engine has similar tuning to the DB9 in reference to the power band, the extra output is not very recognizable from the driver’s seat, however the changes in rate of acceleration is great.

Like you said, this is one drivers opinion, however after driving a 2008 DB9 and a 2009 DB9 the acceleration in the DBS is a huge step up from the DB9 power. At 3,500 rpm the car pulls like nothing Aston has ever built, and at about 5,000 rpm the peak drops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sloopy

I would surmise that 80% is for cosmetic affects and marketing with 20% being driven by function.

I'm not sure I understand this part... but the Aluminum and Carbon Fiber panels are fully for driving support and weight reduction. This car is a FANTASTIC car over 100mph!!! However.. I really like the getting to 100mph part too!


I can't comment on your total driving experience, whereas you and I are two different people and our opinions will always differ to some degree however I did read this and I completely disagreed.. here's why

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sloopy

The DBS seems to do this as well as any car, however since this is meant to be a road car, not a track car, most of your time is spent at lower speeds or in traffic. In this environment more richness on the interior along with more refinement on the inside and out would be a better match for me personally.

The DBS is more based off of the technology and engineering of the DBRS9 than of the road derived DB9. As much as the everyday consumer will in fact be driving the car on the road more so than than the track, it is a road worthy track car. With that being said I would never expect to get into a GT3, a Stradale, and expect a more refined everyday car. I have driven the DBS on and off of the track as well as many other cars, but I was very please to know I could be confident in the DBS as a trackbred car, and I could drive it home there after.

 

I am aware of everything you have mentioned and failed to mention them myself because I felt that most people would have already been aware of these as they are well marketed by AM.
The DBS is dramatically improved car, however it is still more similar to a DB9 than it is different in every way. This is actually a very good thing because the DB9 is a fabulous car and vastly superior to many other cars on the road.
Adding the adjustable dampeners to the new DB9 along with ceramic brakes as an options would be excellent for many. I would assume that I am not the only one who feels this way, however this would severely limit attraction for the DBS for AM.
To clarify power, I said that it is certainly quicker, however not in dramatic way. If revs are kept below 5K on up shifts there is little difference. The extra power is mostly noticeable as you go past 5K, but with this extra power being mostly linear and lasting longer seems less noticeable.
The real issue for me, from my view point, is that the car is dramatized in many areas that do not add to function or performance in any way. These seem to me, personally, as gimmicks for the purpose of attracting attention. This is counter to the way I think and wonder if other people feel the same. If something or someone achieves true excellence, they will not need to shout about it, as it will be readily notice by those for whom it should matter.

 

I Agree. I think the DBS is a vast improvement over the DB9. Some uninformed people seem to think the DB9 shares 85% of its components with the DBS, This is false the only body panels that are the same are the doors. The hood and fenders are all carbon fiber on the DBS. The suspension and brakes are also different. The DBS is much better looking than the DB9. If you want "Exclusivity" than you buy the DBS, If not buy the DB9.

 

Since I'm the one who threw out the 85% number, let me first respond by saying that you are free to correct me. My number was a guesstimate. If you have a more accurate number put it up. Otherwise, just saying that 85% is "uninformed" is useless. Same basic chassis and motor (insert shrug). Of course there are differences, and while carbon body panels are lighter, they are of the same basic shape, aren't they? The car has been improved. It's more powerful, lighter and IMO better looking. So, while it's far more than a DB9 with new brakes and wheels and a body kit, don't make this out to be an entirely new car.

CW

 

Sorry but I can’t resist mudding the waters a little, as it seems that no one understands my point.
It is suppose to be an improvement; however the execution is missing the point in my opinion. They have improved the car from a driver’s standpoint, but Aston Martins were never just about performance. If this is what’s important, buy a Porsche turbo or Z06 for less money and be done with it.
To me, the execution has dumb-ed up the car and added some flash to cover it up. In the process they have lost some of the soul which has always made the cars so special to me. I do like to drive and feel that from this standpoint alone it is a great car, but AM has sold its soul to the devil in the process.
I happened to come across a DB7 sitting in the parking lot yesterday and thought what a lovely car. It has a timeliness that I will never tire of as the years go on. I cannot seem to garner that same feeling for the DBS.