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Originally Posted by TR-Spider
(Post 4701963)
The early versions of such leveling systems were rather slow in reaction and merely designed to compensate for a heavy loaded trunck (which would rise the cars nose).
As a Vantage is rarely subject to carry 150kg of concrete bags as load ... I guess it can perfectly do without the sensor. .............. Thomas chr |
Curiosity got the better of us so we decided to see if we could press out the bushings.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...fea13ca52d.jpg The outer shells are plastic - I cannot believe they would use this. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...a627c5c80e.jpg Not to let worthless control arms go to waste, we ordered some Delrin. Can't wait to try it .:) |
Delrin Bushing Install
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...fad45c5d01.jpg
The arm's were put thru a media blaster to clean them up. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...2e8be2a6be.jpg We used the stock sleeves. Our machinist put them on a lathe and cleaned them up. To my surprise, they are aluminum. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...913cc07882.jpg We still need to flute the sleeves, drill and tap the arms, and add zerks. .0015 clearance fit https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...fd3ac484a6.jpg |
Upper Control Arm Ball Joints
Does anyone know if the upper ball joints were dual sourced. I took a look at different Ford products of the era and I am wondering if the XJ8 used the same joint. I am trying to find a source for these.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...5277471f0b.jpg https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jaguar-Vanden-Plas-XK8-XKR-100-Front-Upper-Ball-Joint-Set-of-2-JLM-21380/263130719846?fits=Make%3AJaguar%7CModel%3AXK8&epid =1433678821&hash=item3d43d02666:g:evQAAOSwIIhZiIRl "]https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jaguar-Vanden-Plas-XK8-XKR-100-Front-Upper-Ball-Joint-Set-of-2-JLM-21380/263130719846?fits=Make%3AJaguar%7CModel%3AXK8&epid =1433678821&hash=item3d43d02666:g:evQAAOSwIIhZiIRl x-chr |
Delrin Bushing Sleeves
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I read your thread with great interest. It is awesome how you transformed the car into a gt4 like spec. Would you recommend to change to KW coilovers for occasional trackdays? Do you miss an adjustable strut bearing when changing the setup at the track?
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Originally Posted by AMR248
(Post 4710345)
I read your thread with great interest. It is awesome how you transformed the car into a gt4 like spec. Would you recommend to change to KW coilovers for occasional trackdays? Do you miss an adjustable strut bearing when changing the setup at the track?
I believe the OP is using it as well. |
Originally Posted by Stuart@VelocityAP
(Post 4710647)
We have set a LOT of owners up with the Nitron R1 setup. It's a great street/track combination.
I believe the OP is using it as well. PROS The KW are easy to use. You can get a nice street ride. CONS I question the composite collar over the long term since we change ride height for track and street. Make sure you clean the threads before moving the collars. We blow them out with WD40. I question the spring rate for the track. I wish they made a club sport version. I tend to run stuff stiff so my thoughts are very subjective. chr |
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Thank you both for the quick reply. The problem i am going to face when installing nitron R1 on my car is german MOT or "TÜV", because the R1 Kit is not provided with an appropriate certificate. Otherwise i would also take your progressive springs into account, Stuart. Therefore i think of going with the KW V3 coilovers unless you say that the track performance is not superior to the standard Dynamics suspension.
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I did not mean to imply that at all. I would have no interest in tracking a Vantage with the stock suspension, especially an 06.
The V3 is miles beyond that. You will have individual dampening control in both bump and rebound. I just seems to me they have the dampers doing a lot of the work instead of a stiffer spring. I believe KW meet your Gov requirements. chr |
In full disclosure I did not have control of rebound dampening the day we tracked the car. We were maxed bump and rebound on the rear and max bump on the front. Will run again in September with full adjustability.
chr |
Rebound dampening was not adjustable because the adjusting screw was not accessible at the rear, right? Again thank you for the much needed information on the KW coilovers and their performance!
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I don't know the KW V3 on the Vantage, but have very good experience with a KW V3 on my BMW trackcar.
No problems with the composite adjusters, I use a soft copper brush to clean dirt from the treads before adjustments. The low-speed-bump adjustment is extremely effective to adjust the cars initial response, and it allows to use softer springs/bars while still have good roll control, however the comfort (aks high-speed-bump still allows comfort). It really pays off to play with it on track. Also, KW can change/readjust the damper-line to your request. Thomas |
We had no trouble at all adjusting the rears it was quite easy. Pay attention when installing and make sure the adjusters are facing the same direction, this will simplify adjustment at the track. We would have had no problem adjusting rebound at the front except I left the key at the shop. Adjusting the bump really transformed the cars response and we were maxed on bump on all 4 corners. We arrived at the track with them set as delivered from KW which IIRC is right at the middle. That was far too soft for track work. I just kept cranking them up and we were really running at the end of the day. I just question having to run them maxed for track work.
chr |
It has been beautful weather here and my truck is in the shop so I have been driving the Vantage. Been playing blues for a long time now I took it to a jam last night. The BandMaster fit perfectly.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...f7019d7d08.png https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...a3fa7a7f5e.jpg Aston Vantage - 50K Gibson R8 - 3500 59 5E7 Clone - 3500 Playing blues in a Southeast Portland dive - Priceless :) chr |
I guess you were wearing black sunglasses while driving your Bluesmobile?
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Certainly - :cool:
chr |
Wanted to share my CEL situation. I was not able to get it corrected with a plastic replacement cap. I went back and spent some time studying the codes and every time it was the DMTL pump so I got it in my mind I would take it to Park Place for diagnosis. The day before we were to leave I loaded it into the trailer for tow to Seattle. After I got the thing secured in the trailer I remembered some threads here about dealerships re-flashing to the stock tunes for diagnostic work. I called Doug at Park Place and he confirmed they would want the stock tune. The next morning I unloaded the car, flashed the stock tune, and re-installed the stock gas cap. Well that was not so great because that cleared the codes. I called Doug and canceled the appointment to give me time to drive the car to get the CEL to re-trigger. For the next week or so I drove the car around during the day, but got nowhere. Friday I drove the car on 150 mile round trip jaunt up the Columbia Gorge and back . This included two 1/2 hour business stops and varied speed with a couple of runs reaching 100. It sat in the rain over night and I took it to breakfast this morning and still no light. I am hoping by writing this karma will jump in and re-trigger the light. On the other hand, is it possible re-flashing deleted errant data from running at the track? I've put several hundred miles on it since the re-flash - I gotta say, this car is addicting.
chr https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...46dafcfa73.jpg |
Got to thinking about the "other hand" and decided I should try DEQ.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...1b22b14f93.jpg Drove it straight back to the shop and re-flashed VAP. :) Side note = simply amazed how much the exhaust frees up the engine response. With the stock tune I was still able to heel and toe with no problem. chr |
Delrin Bushings
We are signed up to run at PIR at the end of July so we started working on reinstalling the original uppers with Delrin Bushings.
We cleaned the mounting faces on the subframe and applied some lithium grease to the bushing faces and mounting faces. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...eb37f5a018.jpg Since there is no give in the Delrin I was a little concerned about alignment, but the arms slid in with minimal clearance by hand. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...8780278a32.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...c0d8e59cf1.jpg Likewise the bolts were easily aligned and pushed thru by hand. :) https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...1985c69443.jpg We applied grease before torquing to try to fill the sleeves. Plenty squeezed out when we torqued the bolts. We'll run it 50 miles and re-apply. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...4dcf93e13e.jpg I was very impressed with the steering feel after installing the arms with the gen 2 bushings from Aston. It will be interesting to see what the NVH will be like on the street with solid bushings in the uppers. Will be really interesting to see how it handles at the track. Don't forget to wipe off the excess grease it makes an awful mess. ;) chr |
We reinstalled the original uppers with the new Delrin bushings. Needs a little re-work but should be running by Monday afternoon.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...65a7d18f86.jpg I finally broke down a purchased a set of SmartStrings. Looks like we won't even have to remove the engine cover. :) https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...8ebf54f047.jpg |
We corrected the zerc locations. We had them at 12 as viewed from the front, but moved them to 9. In the 12 oclock position they will not clear the subframe when the arm rotates. We bolted it it together and drove it this afternoon. The steering is much, much tighter. I am going to drive it home tonight and then dis- assemble and fit each shim individually such that the arms fall under their own weight when torqued to spec. I can only imagine what it would be like with the lowers replaced.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...dda2bb6e77.jpg Door edge molding added as a rub strip to the splitter. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...f77ddf3fe2.jpg |
Originally Posted by era2076
(Post 4724369)
...We bolted it it together and drove it this afternoon. The steering is much, much tighter. ...
When I read your past statement correctly, then already mounting a new top wishbone (with a revised bushing design) tightend the steering - and now (basically without elasticity) even more. -->seems like a small series of bushing would be an interessting idea... Does anybody have an overview of the various wishbones and their differences? as I understand, there are Upper arms 2006 6G33-3091-AB 2007 4G43-3091-BE V8VS and 2012+ 8D33-3091-AC V12 6G33-3091-AB Lower arms: 2006-2009 6G33-3A053-BA , 6G33-3A052-BA unclear difference 2009-2012 8D33-3A053-AC V8VS and 2012+ 8G33-3A053-AB ones (wich also had different knuckle and changed (???) geometry. V12 8G33-3A053-AB Numbers quoted are front LH side. Not on the list the the GT8 - which may have wider arms. |
Yes - I originally requested sport pack arms. I purchased new uppers from VAP and IIRC was told Aston upgraded the bushing stiffness on the upper arms and all the later cars have the stiffer bushings. I believe the PN I purchased are the 8D33 - I will check this later today. I did install the front and rear and it most definitely improved the feel of the steering. That surprised me and I concluded with the sleeves pinched, the bushings are not stiff enough to keep the sprung mass from over deflecting the bushings such that the cg drifts laterally thru the bushings under cornering (and assume vertically under braking). That would make for inconsistent load at the contact patch. So my thinking was to at least control the movement of the top of the upright. The lowers do more work and would keep it aligned, but NVH would be a penalty on the street. There is NVH penalty with the uppers, but I need to drive it enough to know if I can live with it. A couple of guy's at the shop know the car and one of them has driven it on the track so I will send him out for a drive today. The other one drove it yesterday and was all smiles and stated there is more road feel being transmitted thru the steering. I drove it last night and it is very inspiring. I am going to go ahead and fit the shims individually and try to source a set of front lowers with the stiffer bushings. That will most likely be as far as I go. The car as it sits now drives and handles nothing like what I purchased.It will most likely allow us to run a bit softer shock setting on the street. We are running them at 3/4 now which to me feels a tad stiff under slow movement. It will take some work to find the right balance for the street.
To be clear - I purchased a set of OEM arms with stiffer bushings, installed them, ran them, and would not install anything softer - I still have those unmolested. We modified the original arms that came on the car and re-installed them. Very excited to get it back to the track. chr |
I went back thru the purchasing correspondence to help shed some light.
Cool – I read the S had stiffer bushings in the front upper control arms – do you know anything about this e.g. 1) how many bushings were stiffened 2) which ones 3) will they fit in 06 arms 4) are they available x-chr
Originally Posted by VAP
The control arms in the V8 S are the same as a regular Vantage. They are not very good. The problem with the V8 arms and early DB9’s, is the plastic sleeves that hold the bushing. The plastic sleeve slides in the aluminum arm with braking and hard cornering. Once the bushing slides, your caster is off by a good +1degree. Once the caster is out on the Vantage, this will pull on the lower arm and set camber “positive” as well..then enter another corner and brake, you’ve just shifted the problem to the other side and then pulled your other side to negative specs…constant fight for retaining correct caster.
The upper arms on a 2013+ DB9 have resolved the upper bushing issue, they’ve done away with the plastic sleeve and used a proper metal sleeve. The V12 Vantage “S” is also the same and a little stiffer. You CANNOT swap out the bushing, the arm is aluminum and will not contract to hold a new bushing unlike steel. It is the main reason why no OEM supplier will sell bushings, will always come with the arms for liability reasons and pure safety. So your options are complete control arm replacement to the V12VS units. But, if you’re replacing the entire control arm and you’re serious about it I would consider the AMR control arms with spherical bearings. You will also need the little spacers to fit the arm snug in the front structure. AMR just uses a generic spherical bearing and then machines these little spacers to make the arm fit correctly with the structure (believe it’s 2 per bearing so 4 total). Think you will also need their bolts/nuts for the arms. So I purchased, installed, and ran a full set of V12VS upper arms on the street which got me thinking. :rolleyes: With respect to the lowers
Originally Posted by VAP
* Early Sportpack, V8 Vantage S, and also the GT8 lower arms, are all stiffer..roadsters didn’t have order option but can be installed, so if it’s a roadster with sportpack, it got the regular arms. Here’s the stiffer lower arms:*
8G33-3A052-AB is the RHF 8G33-3A053-AB is the LHF BTW, these aren’t the arms that fail(sliding bushings)..just has a stiffer bushing..but not sure it’s worth the time/money. Of course I will need to try them :) chr |
Originally Posted by era2076
(Post 4724577)
So I purchased, installed, and ran a full set of V12VS upper arms on the street which got me thinking. :rolleyes:
Can you share the numbers, please? Thomas PS: thanks for the enlightenment...much appreciated. |
Front upper 6G43-3091-AB
Rear Upper ED-23-5K743-AA You'll need to run down right or left, but it should get you in there. I was a little unsure of these numbers so I checked AstonBits and they do show these numbers under the V12. chr |
I drove the car to work this morning and noticed the rear is over damped. I had Mike take it to lunch and he too stated it was very stiff in the rear. I softened the compression in the rear 3 increments (put us back to the middle) and had him drive it again. It is very smooth and goes over manhole covers with quiet thumps and no jarring. The rear feels much more settled when you get on it. The rebound is still set at 3/4. We do not notice any abnormal NVH with the rear compression set softer. I knew the rear was somewhat over damped, but the new bushings seemed to exacerbate it. We made no changes to the front dampening. We pulled all four arms out this afternoon and will fit the shims for free articulation tomorrow.
chr |
Each bushing must be checked for fit - we used the following.
The arms were binding some when we put it together. After 25 miles a couple were really binding. We removed each arm and inspected them and then re-installed one at a time. The bushing needs to rotate around the clamped sleeve. The arm should not rotate around the bushing. Example => on the front passenger, with both bushing bolts loosely installed and using the OEM torque spec, we torqued the rear bolt until the arm had too much resistance to rotate freely. We loosened that bolt until the arm could again move freely and then tightened the front bolt until it too was too tight to rotate. We noted the difference in torque between the two and then made an educated guess on how much to remove not wanting to remove too much. In our case it was usually .010 on one bushing and .020 on the other. One of the arms took a couple of iterations. With the bolts torqued to spec, all four now drop with minimal effort. This again changed the driving feel - I most likely will put a little compression back into the rear. While test driving we rolled 2K miles since purchased. A beautiful machine for sure. :) chr |
Reminds me on the times when I experimented with making my own PU wishbone bushings (not on the Vantage).
It took quite some time to get the amount of preload correct (too litle-wobbly, too muchbinding) - similar but different problem to yours, as with the Delrin there should be (almost) zero preload necessary. Any kind of binding will lead to awkward responses. I also ended up cutting lubricant-distributing-channels (inside bushing towards sleeve) and mounting grease nipples. Nice work - and yes, a beautiful machine it is indeed. Thomas |
Nice job !
Could you give us the size of the OEM bushes ? - int diam - ext diam - length - etc Maybe Power flex could have anything of a suitable size ? Why dont you install somthing like this : https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...5362eb6e81.jpg |
Originally Posted by era2076
(Post 4724607)
Front upper 6G43-3091-AB
Rear Upper ED-23-5K743-AA You'll need to run down right or left, but it should get you in there. I was a little unsure of these numbers so I checked AstonBits and they do show these numbers under the V12. chr RHS: DG43-3084-AB LHS: DG43-3091-AB These fronts are on the V12VS and also the GT8. The rear upper arms: ED23-5K743-AA (universal sided) The fronts can be put on any Vantage..V8/V12, doesn't matter. It's the rears that some ppl run into an issue due to the upper rears having the headlight leveling sensor attached. You could in theory just tie wrap or make your own mounting for the level sensor arm...Aston actually deleted the level sensor because it did virtually nothing with the stiff suspension(if you have the sensor, don't just keep it lose, needs to be fixed/secured to arm). Drill a hole, tap it and a 1-hole 'L' bracket works great. The cutoff for not having the rear level sensor attached to upper arm is 12.25MY. The V12V and V12VS arms are not the same. The V12V still has the plastic bushing sleeves while the 2013+ DB9/Vanquish/V12VS all have metal sleeved bushing. The plastic sleeved bushing are known to slide/walk in the arm and the metal sleeved bushings stay in place. FYI, when the bushing walks/slides, this offsets the caster which affects the camber, and in result sets out the toe..aka screws up your alignment and wears tires prematurely. There's already spherical ball joint versions, but are from AMR for the GT4. |
Thomas - well said with the key word being preload i.e. axial preload. I like zero, but my machinist always reminds me the consequence of going too far, which includes starting over and I hate going backwards. I have read five to eight pounds is acceptable. At some point the pickup points axial alignments will play into the friction problem. The pickup points on my car are very well aligned and everything went together very nicely. We are going to get some street miles on it next week and then disassemble again for inspection. I will try to get some drop weight numbers.
bunob - I did not record any dimensions. The bores in the control arms were mic'ed individually and the outside diameters of the bushings were turned for a .001 interference fit for each individual bore. We shortened the non-flanged end of the bushing when fitting. We used the original sleeves and fluted them to hold the grease. Delrin is self lubricating so the primary purpose of the grease is to provide a moisture barrier and to keep the bearing surfaces clean. There are several problems running hard spherical bearings. e.g. moisture, races beat out, grime etc. I built the front suspension on my Cobra with rod ends which bring their own set of problems, but there is no discernible friction and they are very easily swapped in and out. They are dangerous because of the induced bending load thru the threads, but lots of race cars run them. One has to be committed to constant inspection and know bad things can happen. I look forward to the experience. The Delrin bushings are a compromise of sorts. They will not last like rubber bushings, but they will last much better than spherical bearings. The Cobra is a track car. The Vantage is a street car. Irish - thanks for setting the record straight. I was hoping one of you guy's would show up with correct part numbers. IMO the V12VS arms are a great upgrade. The only reason I went to Delrin was for improved track performance and I had a worthless set of arms staring at me. If it proves too harsh, I can easily revert back to the V12 arms. :) On headlight tracking - I just removed the actuator arms completely. Irish - does Aston specify inspection intervals and renew of the GT4 bearings? x-chr |
Hello at all
Very nice job x-chr and thanks irish07 for the most stiffer upper arms part numbers. Please what are now the most stiffer lower arm part numbers ? I read Vanquish II and S since 2015 have 25% stiffer bushes in rear arms....is it the same for V12V S ? So I plan to update my beloved DBS 75000kms with its front that understeer and rear that squirms !! Best :) Phil |
add-on :
ready to buy in UK but : for front upper arms i found 2 numbers part for the same side DG43-3084-AB P and DG43-3084-BA P (same AB P versus BA P for the other side DG43-3091-__ _) What does it mean please ? and what is P ? thanks for answer Best |
Do you remember which version of the V3 coilover suspension you ordered? From KWs product listing they are available for
(I) 4.3L Roadster, 10 and 12 mm piston rod thread diameter (II) 4.7L Coupe, 10 and 12 mm piston rod thread diameter I think i have to order the 10 mm Version for my 07 V8 Vantage, which was delivered with Dynamic Suspension. Do you know whether the versions vor (I) and (II) differ in length or diameter? Thanks for helping me |
AMR - took me a bit I had to find the box. I purchased them from a vendor here and they selected the model. They are very nice on the street end very easy to work with. Jury is still out on track work.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...6165337d15.jpg |
On Bushings -
I have several hundred miles on the new bushings and all I can say is WOW! The steering is completely changed. The steering response is now very linear to the throttle response. I am a little stunned how well it works. I find no harshness at all. Turn in and lateral weight transfer in transition just make me smile. It is a blast to drive. :) I have no idea how many miles we'll get out of them so they will have to routinely be inspected. We will tear it apart again tomorrow and see how everything looks. If all is good, I will see about getting the drop weights. chr |
Awesome! That is, what i was searching for.
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