The costs of detailing...
#31
04-09-2009, 06:43 PM
To be controversal, I'd like Moe or one of the other professionals to answer this question. Assuming you want to keep a car a long time, and that you are not trying to win a concours or similar style event, isn't paint correction a bad idea??
Here's my reasoning. Any correction involves some sort of flattening of the clear coat imperfections, ie you are removing paint. Why not, clean aggressively, and then fill with wax or similar products and seal etc. yes the final finish will not be as perfect as one of your masterpieces, but no paint will be removed. Over the next 10-20 years keep this process up, and only paint correct if and when the blemishes etc start to detract from your enjoyment of the vehicle. Or will you argue that flattening the paint in someway protects it from future damage?? Curious about your thoughts for this situation, again the key is keeping the vehicle for a very long time, and wanting to preserve the paint as best as you can.
Here's my reasoning. Any correction involves some sort of flattening of the clear coat imperfections, ie you are removing paint. Why not, clean aggressively, and then fill with wax or similar products and seal etc. yes the final finish will not be as perfect as one of your masterpieces, but no paint will be removed. Over the next 10-20 years keep this process up, and only paint correct if and when the blemishes etc start to detract from your enjoyment of the vehicle. Or will you argue that flattening the paint in someway protects it from future damage?? Curious about your thoughts for this situation, again the key is keeping the vehicle for a very long time, and wanting to preserve the paint as best as you can.
An older vehicle, with an unknown history of care and correction, would be a situation to exercise much more caution and prudence of ongoing care.
Reason and caution will go a long way with each individual circumstance. And a paint gauge isn't a bad thing either.
#32
04-09-2009, 07:42 PM
Premium Sponsor
To be controversal, I'd like Moe or one of the other professionals to answer this question. Assuming you want to keep a car a long time, and that you are not trying to win a concours or similar style event, isn't paint correction a bad idea??
Here's my reasoning. Any correction involves some sort of flattening of the clear coat imperfections, ie you are removing paint. Why not, clean aggressively, and then fill with wax or similar products and seal etc. yes the final finish will not be as perfect as one of your masterpieces, but no paint will be removed. Over the next 10-20 years keep this process up, and only paint correct if and when the blemishes etc start to detract from your enjoyment of the vehicle. Or will you argue that flattening the paint in someway protects it from future damage?? Curious about your thoughts for this situation, again the key is keeping the vehicle for a very long time, and wanting to preserve the paint as best as you can.
Here's my reasoning. Any correction involves some sort of flattening of the clear coat imperfections, ie you are removing paint. Why not, clean aggressively, and then fill with wax or similar products and seal etc. yes the final finish will not be as perfect as one of your masterpieces, but no paint will be removed. Over the next 10-20 years keep this process up, and only paint correct if and when the blemishes etc start to detract from your enjoyment of the vehicle. Or will you argue that flattening the paint in someway protects it from future damage?? Curious about your thoughts for this situation, again the key is keeping the vehicle for a very long time, and wanting to preserve the paint as best as you can.
I qualify all my clients before doing paint correction. I explain to them that this is a process that should only be done once if cared for properly. It's not about the cost of the detail, rather maintaining the integrity of the vehicle's original paint.
So to recap, if you buy a pre-owned vehicle, then depending on your level of expectation, a proper paint correction may be necessary. If you buy a new car and the dealer isn't qualified to detail it, then you may need paint correction.
Once a professional detailer, or you the DIYer, has PROPERLY and LIGITMITELY, removed the imperfections and corrected the paint, then if you care for the exterior properly with good techniques and good products, you don't need paint correction ever again. The hand polish and wax you'll be using to maintain the paint should correct/hide the imperfections to get the paint to about 95% perfect.
I've never met a client to keep his/her car 100% the condition I left it after paint correction. The reason isn't because they're not careful or have improper technique. The reason is once you get 100% correction, you can only go down from there. How far down is up to you.
Last edited by MoeMistry; 04-09-2009 at 07:44 PM.
#33
04-10-2009, 08:03 AM
When you guys say "one major correction" in the cars lifetime, what does that entail? I would assume a "light correction" we be something like Menzerna SIP on an orange pad using a porter cable or something similar? Or is a light correction white pad/Nano on a porter cable or similar? I do the above process to my daily driver once per year and it stay nice, but definately NEEDS it when the time comes, and I am the only one to wash the car. Regardless of how you handle the car, scratches and swirls still occur, it is inevitable.
I can't speak for other detailer, but a major correction for me is SAFELY correcting 95-100% of the visible imperfection in the paint. This means swirls, scratches, etching, etc. is legitimately, removed without compromising the clearcoat. If there's something that needs wetsanding, I usually try and make it as less visible as possible without wetsanding. I know there are others out there that will wetsand, but on a production car with a thin amount of paint as is, I don't sand.
So back to major polishing, this will vary case by case. But, if I have to polish any more than two stages, that means a major correction. If there's light swirls, on a soft Japanese paint like Lexus or Acura, you may get by using Menzerna SIP/Orange pad and Super Finish/White pad. But on a Porsche, Audi, even the new cermiclears like Ferrari F430 or Rolls Phantom, you may minimize things, sometimes remove if using a FLEX, but most likely you'll need a 3-stage polishing with SIP/Yellow pad, Super Finish/White pad, and maybe Super Finish/Black pad.
So once a major correction is done, paint is 95-100% corrected, you are then starting from a clean slate. If you find you're having to machine polish often, this means you either did not fully correct the paint to begin with or your technique in washing and wiping down is incorrect. There are so many variables involved here, that it won't make sense to go through. But here are some reasons why you may have swirls/scratches re-appear and require machine polishing:
- Did not fully correct paint when machine polishing. Sone polishes contain fillers that will dry out over time exposing the hidden defects
- When washing, using too harsh of soap or not enough soap. Soap acts as a lubricant and you need to use the right water/soap concentration
- Using improper wash mitt. Always use a high quality lambs wool mitt. There are other good mediums, but I always prefer lambs wool. Old mitts like cotton, synthetic lamb, etc. trap dirt and you rub the microscopic dirt paticles back into the paint
- NOT Either using a two-bucket method or rinse the wash mitt constantly. Remember, a dirty wash mitt should never go back into a clean soap bucket. I rinse my mitt after each panel and never dunk back into my "virgin" soap with a dirty mitt
- Using synthetic or natural chamois. Chamois are old technology IMHO. They trap dirt and they get dirtier and dirtier with each use. Use a microfiber drying cloth since it will get washed after every use
- Using poor quality microfiber towels. The yellow cheap towels from Costco aren't meant for the paint. They're good for one or two times on the paint but after that they lose their integrity and begin scratching the paint. Use a high quality towel. It will last longer and stay fluffier.
- Washing and wiping too fast. Take your time. It's not a race to see who finishes first. If you washed correctly and followed the right technique, a proper wash should take at least 20-30 minutes for a typical speedster like a 911.
Hope the above helps.
So back to major polishing, this will vary case by case. But, if I have to polish any more than two stages, that means a major correction. If there's light swirls, on a soft Japanese paint like Lexus or Acura, you may get by using Menzerna SIP/Orange pad and Super Finish/White pad. But on a Porsche, Audi, even the new cermiclears like Ferrari F430 or Rolls Phantom, you may minimize things, sometimes remove if using a FLEX, but most likely you'll need a 3-stage polishing with SIP/Yellow pad, Super Finish/White pad, and maybe Super Finish/Black pad.
So once a major correction is done, paint is 95-100% corrected, you are then starting from a clean slate. If you find you're having to machine polish often, this means you either did not fully correct the paint to begin with or your technique in washing and wiping down is incorrect. There are so many variables involved here, that it won't make sense to go through. But here are some reasons why you may have swirls/scratches re-appear and require machine polishing:
- Did not fully correct paint when machine polishing. Sone polishes contain fillers that will dry out over time exposing the hidden defects
- When washing, using too harsh of soap or not enough soap. Soap acts as a lubricant and you need to use the right water/soap concentration
- Using improper wash mitt. Always use a high quality lambs wool mitt. There are other good mediums, but I always prefer lambs wool. Old mitts like cotton, synthetic lamb, etc. trap dirt and you rub the microscopic dirt paticles back into the paint
- NOT Either using a two-bucket method or rinse the wash mitt constantly. Remember, a dirty wash mitt should never go back into a clean soap bucket. I rinse my mitt after each panel and never dunk back into my "virgin" soap with a dirty mitt
- Using synthetic or natural chamois. Chamois are old technology IMHO. They trap dirt and they get dirtier and dirtier with each use. Use a microfiber drying cloth since it will get washed after every use
- Using poor quality microfiber towels. The yellow cheap towels from Costco aren't meant for the paint. They're good for one or two times on the paint but after that they lose their integrity and begin scratching the paint. Use a high quality towel. It will last longer and stay fluffier.
- Washing and wiping too fast. Take your time. It's not a race to see who finishes first. If you washed correctly and followed the right technique, a proper wash should take at least 20-30 minutes for a typical speedster like a 911.
Hope the above helps.
Oh and I completely agree with Moe about long-term maintenance.. once the initial correction is done, you can always do the glazing/hiding of defects as you would've done before, only on a 'perfect as will be' finish this time... and the future light polishing obviously can't be done for 20 years twice a year, but if you do it once a year or once every 2 years you should be fine considering no correction was done prior to the one major correction you did, or paid someone to do, on the car.
#34
04-10-2009, 08:46 AM
Premium Sponsor
Light correction for means white/106ff or lighter because it only removes that very light layer of swirls that accumulate in 6-8 months of washing, after the major correction... SIP/orange is definitely not a light correction, for me at least.
I agree with basically every word but have no clue why you put Audi and Porsche in the same sentence... I've done Audis from 97-8 to 2007 or so and Porsches 2001-2009 and have yet to see an Audi with softer clear or a Porsche with anything resembling a harder cc... Porsche paint swirls when you look at it... did I miss something?
Oh and I completely agree with Moe about long-term maintenance.. once the initial correction is done, you can always do the glazing/hiding of defects as you would've done before, only on a 'perfect as will be' finish this time... and the future light polishing obviously can't be done for 20 years twice a year, but if you do it once a year or once every 2 years you should be fine considering no correction was done prior to the one major correction you did, or paid someone to do, on the car.
I agree with basically every word but have no clue why you put Audi and Porsche in the same sentence... I've done Audis from 97-8 to 2007 or so and Porsches 2001-2009 and have yet to see an Audi with softer clear or a Porsche with anything resembling a harder cc... Porsche paint swirls when you look at it... did I miss something?
Oh and I completely agree with Moe about long-term maintenance.. once the initial correction is done, you can always do the glazing/hiding of defects as you would've done before, only on a 'perfect as will be' finish this time... and the future light polishing obviously can't be done for 20 years twice a year, but if you do it once a year or once every 2 years you should be fine considering no correction was done prior to the one major correction you did, or paid someone to do, on the car.
#35
04-10-2009, 03:00 PM
IMO, paint correction happens once a year on every car to get it a fresh start! (typically summer or spring). it is then maintained on a weekly, monthly, bi-annual basis!
here is a little excerpt from my website on what I recommend to keeping your car looking its best all year long, for as long as you own the car!
A good regimen to keeping a car looking its best all year long is something along these lines:
• Month 1 – Reconditioning Detail inside and out – this gives the car a fresh clean start to maintain without having to “cover-up” or “mask” defects. It is easier to maintain a clean car rather than a dirty one!
• Month 3 – Waxing for protection – washing will be easier on a freshly waxed car, fallout will not stick to the paint easily, and will maintain that smooth/slick feel.
• Month 5 – Complete Detail inside and out – exterior wash and wax with interior protection added to prevent fading
• Month 7 – One step or two step machine polishing to remove defects/swirl marks
• Month 9 – Complete Detail inside and out
• Month 11 – Waxing for protection
NOW, that is for most cars on the road who dont take care of their cars like they should! for those of you who care for the car, understand that tunnel washes are going to hurt the finish rather than help it, and those of you who detail monthly, alterations to the regimen are needed - as in month 7 only a one step or even a simple waxing might fit the car better!
personally, when I bought the car in january of last year, I hit it with menzerna FPII and a megs yellow polishing pad to give it some pop. i also clayed it and use ONR on it every two weeks or so, as long as its not raining. This car is left outside 24/7 two blocks from the beach in HB. I have only one stepped it once since then, and wax it every couple of months...one time with a sealant, and the next with a nuba! People as me how often I polish and the answer is hardly ever...they are shocked to say the least! yeah, there are swirls on my car over the last 15 months of washing, but they are no where near what other cars receive after just 4-6 months! Why? because I protect my car on a regular basis and that helps to prevent swirling on a mass scale! i have taken it to a tunnel wash one time because I needed it cleaned and I didnt have the time to do it...last time I EVER did that! Results were horrible, which led me to the one step!
here is a little excerpt from my website on what I recommend to keeping your car looking its best all year long, for as long as you own the car!
A good regimen to keeping a car looking its best all year long is something along these lines:
• Month 1 – Reconditioning Detail inside and out – this gives the car a fresh clean start to maintain without having to “cover-up” or “mask” defects. It is easier to maintain a clean car rather than a dirty one!
• Month 3 – Waxing for protection – washing will be easier on a freshly waxed car, fallout will not stick to the paint easily, and will maintain that smooth/slick feel.
• Month 5 – Complete Detail inside and out – exterior wash and wax with interior protection added to prevent fading
• Month 7 – One step or two step machine polishing to remove defects/swirl marks
• Month 9 – Complete Detail inside and out
• Month 11 – Waxing for protection
NOW, that is for most cars on the road who dont take care of their cars like they should! for those of you who care for the car, understand that tunnel washes are going to hurt the finish rather than help it, and those of you who detail monthly, alterations to the regimen are needed - as in month 7 only a one step or even a simple waxing might fit the car better!
personally, when I bought the car in january of last year, I hit it with menzerna FPII and a megs yellow polishing pad to give it some pop. i also clayed it and use ONR on it every two weeks or so, as long as its not raining. This car is left outside 24/7 two blocks from the beach in HB. I have only one stepped it once since then, and wax it every couple of months...one time with a sealant, and the next with a nuba! People as me how often I polish and the answer is hardly ever...they are shocked to say the least! yeah, there are swirls on my car over the last 15 months of washing, but they are no where near what other cars receive after just 4-6 months! Why? because I protect my car on a regular basis and that helps to prevent swirling on a mass scale! i have taken it to a tunnel wash one time because I needed it cleaned and I didnt have the time to do it...last time I EVER did that! Results were horrible, which led me to the one step!
#36
04-10-2009, 03:06 PM
as for removing too much clear:
I was at a meguiars training day a few years back and the guy mentioned using and 83/80 combo on your typical new car. he said you could essentially do that combo twice a year, for 10+ years and never see any ill effects on the clear coat. Its when you use heavier combos when you have to start worrying about CC removal on a rapid pace. But the 83/polishing pad combo is pretty mild in comparison to say 105/wool pad, so you have to take that into evaluation!
I would bet its safe to assume you can 105 and light cut foam pad a car from day one about 10 times before you would notice and effects on the CC. 105 and a heavy cut foam/wool pad, different story!
I was at a meguiars training day a few years back and the guy mentioned using and 83/80 combo on your typical new car. he said you could essentially do that combo twice a year, for 10+ years and never see any ill effects on the clear coat. Its when you use heavier combos when you have to start worrying about CC removal on a rapid pace. But the 83/polishing pad combo is pretty mild in comparison to say 105/wool pad, so you have to take that into evaluation!
I would bet its safe to assume you can 105 and light cut foam pad a car from day one about 10 times before you would notice and effects on the CC. 105 and a heavy cut foam/wool pad, different story!
#37
04-12-2009, 07:37 PM
as for removing too much clear:
I was at a meguiars training day a few years back and the guy mentioned using and 83/80 combo on your typical new car. he said you could essentially do that combo twice a year, for 10+ years and never see any ill effects on the clear coat. Its when you use heavier combos when you have to start worrying about CC removal on a rapid pace. But the 83/polishing pad combo is pretty mild in comparison to say 105/wool pad, so you have to take that into evaluation!
I would bet its safe to assume you can 105 and light cut foam pad a car from day one about 10 times before you would notice and effects on the CC. 105 and a heavy cut foam/wool pad, different story!
I was at a meguiars training day a few years back and the guy mentioned using and 83/80 combo on your typical new car. he said you could essentially do that combo twice a year, for 10+ years and never see any ill effects on the clear coat. Its when you use heavier combos when you have to start worrying about CC removal on a rapid pace. But the 83/polishing pad combo is pretty mild in comparison to say 105/wool pad, so you have to take that into evaluation!
I would bet its safe to assume you can 105 and light cut foam pad a car from day one about 10 times before you would notice and effects on the CC. 105 and a heavy cut foam/wool pad, different story!
In addition to the above, you have to look at a lot of variables when it comes to polishing, like enough pressure with M83 will remove just as much as no/little pressure with M105... stuff like that.
My point is that too much paint is being removed on a regular basis due to the fact that clients and detailers don't think further than 4-6 years, or less, down the road... but when going back to my car for example, who's to blame when a 2nd or 3rd owner picks up the car after 9-10 years and takes it to a detailer, only to start seeing spots and crap all over their car. I would venture to say that only 1-2 'major' corrections should/could be done on a brand new car in order to keep the integrity of the cc for the future...
I have many clients who come 2-3 times per year for polishing, but they get a VERY light 1-step with M9006 pad and something like Meg's #9, only to remove that very light layer of swirls they acquired over the few months between polishing. I recommend 1-2 maintenance polishes per year and they consist of the above combo or something similar, for the simple fact that I must take into consideration the condition of that paint 20+ years down the road.
Others might think differently, but I know way too many people, myself included, who prefer the older designs of cars to newer (I for example am, simply put, obsessed with BMW E36 design (94-99), and will be buying them as money comes in over the years... another M3, 328, etc.) and know that only a huge minority are interested in re-painting... I'm lucky in a way because most of these cars that I really like haven't been through much, if any, detailing/polishing and while they're in bad shape with swirls, etc., the paint is still pretty thick and can withstand years of polishing... but consider another 25 year old in 20 years wanting to go out and buy a 2008 M3... that would be my responsibility to allow that car to have cc when re-purchased...
Do what you will, but owners and detailers alike need to be aware that if the future of the car's paint isn't considered when doing the initial or follow-up polishing, there's going to be damage sooner or later... I guess the easiest way to think of it is that if you can remove the 'safe' amount of cc in one polishing session, 10-15hrs of work and with 2-4 steps max, then picture doing maintenance polishes for 10-20 years... not good.
Funny you posted this as I just posted on autopia how M105 is becoming way too comon and 'overused' by detailers and DIYers alike...
Last edited by Zaks; 04-12-2009 at 07:42 PM.
#38
04-13-2009, 03:30 PM
I dont think its your responsibility, its the car owner's responsibility. also, there is the point of adding more clear to a car from a paint shop. you can always go to the shop, mention you have had quite a bit of detail work performed in the past, or mention you bought a used car and dont know how much clear is on the car, and then ask the painter to add multiple layers of clearcoat! In a sense, problem solved! Based on what you are saying you think that people are driving the same car day in and day out for 20 years...I would like to see 10 cars from people you know who do that, without any maintanence to the car...hardly anyone does!
consider replacement/new parts like paint...the battery goes out, you replace it, the motor goes out, you replace it....the clear goes out, you replace it!!!
consider replacement/new parts like paint...the battery goes out, you replace it, the motor goes out, you replace it....the clear goes out, you replace it!!!
#39
04-13-2009, 04:16 PM
I dont think its your responsibility, its the car owner's responsibility. also, there is the point of adding more clear to a car from a paint shop. you can always go to the shop, mention you have had quite a bit of detail work performed in the past, or mention you bought a used car and dont know how much clear is on the car, and then ask the painter to add multiple layers of clearcoat! In a sense, problem solved! Based on what you are saying you think that people are driving the same car day in and day out for 20 years...I would like to see 10 cars from people you know who do that, without any maintanence to the car...hardly anyone does!
consider replacement/new parts like paint...the battery goes out, you replace it, the motor goes out, you replace it....the clear goes out, you replace it!!!
consider replacement/new parts like paint...the battery goes out, you replace it, the motor goes out, you replace it....the clear goes out, you replace it!!!
Oh and please don't start comparing stuff like that... it just leads nowhere... I could easily argue that while the battery might go out, leaving your car at a mechanic can lead to him leaving your interior lights on and battery going to sh*t much faster...
I'm not here to argue, just want to point out that us detailers are in fact responsible for clear coat removal since we are the ones doing it, and something should be done each detail to extend the life of that cc as long as possible...
As for car age, take a look around and you'll see... if you live in a richer area then check the stats on registered vehicles in the US... a couple years back it was around 40% I think (for 10+ years old)...
Lastly, it would make more sense and be a better investment for a person to paint their car every 2 years ($2000-3000 for a very good paint job) than to have it polished 2x/year by someone who doesn't take cc thickness and failure into consideration... 2x/year detail is 4 in 2 years and roughly $1200-1600+.
ps... if you take a moment to notice, you'll see how most of those older cars are in 'healthy' condition when it comes to paint, and it's due to the fact that they're polished once or twice from the factory, maybe once at the dealer and that's it... over the past 10-15 years though (especially last 5-7), the amount of detailing, thus polishing, has picked up at an amazing rate and if we're careless people with 5 year old cars will be going to shops for a 'cc tune-up' in a couple years.
#40
04-13-2009, 05:11 PM
Premium Sponsor
How can you say it's not my responsibility when I'm the one removing the clear coat? So if I burn through the paint I can simply say "Hey bud, sorry but there wasn't enough clear coat so go get a $500 paint job on the hood, but pay me my $500 too for the detail."? Why do we detailers buy insurance?
Oh and please don't start comparing stuff like that... it just leads nowhere... I could easily argue that while the battery might go out, leaving your car at a mechanic can lead to him leaving your interior lights on and battery going to sh*t much faster...
I'm not here to argue, just want to point out that us detailers are in fact responsible for clear coat removal since we are the ones doing it, and something should be done each detail to extend the life of that cc as long as possible...
As for car age, take a look around and you'll see... if you live in a richer area then check the stats on registered vehicles in the US... a couple years back it was around 40% I think (for 10+ years old)...
Lastly, it would make more sense and be a better investment for a person to paint their car every 2 years ($2000-3000 for a very good paint job) than to have it polished 2x/year by someone who doesn't take cc thickness and failure into consideration... 2x/year detail is 4 in 2 years and roughly $1200-1600+.
ps... if you take a moment to notice, you'll see how most of those older cars are in 'healthy' condition when it comes to paint, and it's due to the fact that they're polished once or twice from the factory, maybe once at the dealer and that's it... over the past 10-15 years though (especially last 5-7), the amount of detailing, thus polishing, has picked up at an amazing rate and if we're careless people with 5 year old cars will be going to shops for a 'cc tune-up' in a couple years.
Oh and please don't start comparing stuff like that... it just leads nowhere... I could easily argue that while the battery might go out, leaving your car at a mechanic can lead to him leaving your interior lights on and battery going to sh*t much faster...
I'm not here to argue, just want to point out that us detailers are in fact responsible for clear coat removal since we are the ones doing it, and something should be done each detail to extend the life of that cc as long as possible...
As for car age, take a look around and you'll see... if you live in a richer area then check the stats on registered vehicles in the US... a couple years back it was around 40% I think (for 10+ years old)...
Lastly, it would make more sense and be a better investment for a person to paint their car every 2 years ($2000-3000 for a very good paint job) than to have it polished 2x/year by someone who doesn't take cc thickness and failure into consideration... 2x/year detail is 4 in 2 years and roughly $1200-1600+.
ps... if you take a moment to notice, you'll see how most of those older cars are in 'healthy' condition when it comes to paint, and it's due to the fact that they're polished once or twice from the factory, maybe once at the dealer and that's it... over the past 10-15 years though (especially last 5-7), the amount of detailing, thus polishing, has picked up at an amazing rate and if we're careless people with 5 year old cars will be going to shops for a 'cc tune-up' in a couple years.
IMHO, unless you spend thousands to repaint a car properly, nothing beats a factory finish. You cannot simply spray clear on a car. A lot of prep work goes into painting a car properly, not to mention the value of the car is diminished once repainted; unless the proper amount of time and money goes into the paint job...usually about $7-10K for a complete car that is production level. What happens to all the rock chips for example if you simply re-clear? All those areas mentioned would need a proper repaint.
The key is responsible detailing. People are paying good money to have "professional" detailers use their judgment on their cars. That's a trust and responsibility I hold dear. I know I wouldn't want someone to just polish my car and tell me I need it repainted in a few years.
#41
04-13-2009, 09:38 PM
I havent done PTG readings, but do you think that 105 on a DA with a light cut pad on your "average hard" clear is going to remove too much?
I can see your point, and 100% agree, that a full 100% reconditioning detail should only be done once, or twice, MAYBE three times over the life of the "original paint," but to say you shouldnt fully correct paint more than once is stretching it a little far...
Heavy compounding multiple times around a car, multiple times a year is not a smart idea at all, and I fully agree! but a couple times, I would say you will be ok!
Thats why fillers, the ever hated by most detailers, are taboo amongst some. They have their place, and this topic is a prime example! Instead of chasing that last 5% on a daily driven car that gets polished a few times a year, use a product that will "hide" the defects a little to give the image of perfection, while perserving the integrity of the paint just that much longer!
How many times would you say you can safely one step, with a product like 151 or poliseal on a light cutting pad/polishing pad like lake country orange/white? Both have a little cutting ability, both contain filling properties!
3K is not a lot for a good paint job...I see a van that has a 3K paint job and it has a lot of orange peel and looks OK at best IMO, when comparing to a factory type job! A truly proper and good paint job will run upwards of 10K+ depending on expectations (graphics, hard/soft clear, orange peel removal, etc) So with your comparison, you can have a detailer out 25 times at 3-400 per paint job...
have you done PTG readings yourself to compare compounds and just how much paint each removes? I haven't, so I cannot confirm anything as its all speculation to me at this point. I would be interested in hearing just how much paint M105 is actually removing on a medium hardness paint with a light cutting foam pad, or a light cutting wool pad...you have any readings available for me to look over?
good topic to discuss by the way, I think slightly differently now!
I can see your point, and 100% agree, that a full 100% reconditioning detail should only be done once, or twice, MAYBE three times over the life of the "original paint," but to say you shouldnt fully correct paint more than once is stretching it a little far...
Heavy compounding multiple times around a car, multiple times a year is not a smart idea at all, and I fully agree! but a couple times, I would say you will be ok!
Thats why fillers, the ever hated by most detailers, are taboo amongst some. They have their place, and this topic is a prime example! Instead of chasing that last 5% on a daily driven car that gets polished a few times a year, use a product that will "hide" the defects a little to give the image of perfection, while perserving the integrity of the paint just that much longer!
How many times would you say you can safely one step, with a product like 151 or poliseal on a light cutting pad/polishing pad like lake country orange/white? Both have a little cutting ability, both contain filling properties!
3K is not a lot for a good paint job...I see a van that has a 3K paint job and it has a lot of orange peel and looks OK at best IMO, when comparing to a factory type job! A truly proper and good paint job will run upwards of 10K+ depending on expectations (graphics, hard/soft clear, orange peel removal, etc) So with your comparison, you can have a detailer out 25 times at 3-400 per paint job...
have you done PTG readings yourself to compare compounds and just how much paint each removes? I haven't, so I cannot confirm anything as its all speculation to me at this point. I would be interested in hearing just how much paint M105 is actually removing on a medium hardness paint with a light cutting foam pad, or a light cutting wool pad...you have any readings available for me to look over?
good topic to discuss by the way, I think slightly differently now!
Last edited by Envious Eric; 04-13-2009 at 09:45 PM.
#42
04-13-2009, 09:53 PM
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Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
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If I may throw my hat in the ring here. I have been watching and reading this thread for a week and there are many valid points. I would like to offer my opinion. As a professional detailer, it IS my responsibilty to make sure that a clients paint is not in jeopardy of failing because of the work I do. For a few hundred dollars you can get a good PTG ( paint thickness gauge - electronic, not magnetic) so you will know where you stand BEFORE you start. As a professional, you should also have a good idea about how much paint comes on the average car when new so when you take your readings, it means something. If you are polishing your car ( I mean with something like Menz Power Finish or Megs 83) on an annual basis, you will die of old age before you run out of clear. A three stage polish which would include a compound, a polish and a finishing polish, should not remove more than 1-2 microns of paint. Any sanding or removal of deep RDS will result in more clear being removed. A standard paint job will have 110 - 130 microns from the factory, typically split into thirds - primer, base, clear. You should be able to remove one third of the top coat without having to worry about clear coat failure. Thats about 12-15 microns of clear. Thats a lot of clear to go through. Having said that, and knowing the abilities of some "detailers" out there, when a client comes to you it is paramount you have the equipment and expertise to guide that client accordingly. I recently polished a friends brand new Infiniti GX37 and the PTG readings on the roof were between 64 and 70. Without a PTG, I would have surely been out at least a G-note to repaint the top of his car.
#43
04-22-2009, 07:31 AM
Premium Sponsor
Lots of great points have been made. Bottom line, get educated about the whole process, word-of-mouth is the best recommendation from others, and don't be penny wise and pound poor.
#44
05-30-2009, 12:32 AM
Interesting thread. I don't have detailer experience, so my input is from the client/home gamer perspective.
I think the detailer needs to be very careful regarding:
I think the detailer needs to be very careful regarding:
- Expectations regarding outcome
- Home much paint they need to remove to get there
- risks
- cost
- you can't fix paint without removing paint. You can't go to this well a million times. It is like a porcelain sink...eventually the steel starts to show through and no quantity of polish will fix that.
- Detailers who are not experienced (expert) are not going to be able to make the best decision on how much paint needs to be removed to get the desired outcome. A rookie might be able to bring your paint to a smooth finish, but if they take off twice the amout of clear coat...is that a good solution?
- In markets where there is more competition, you will pay more but get better understanding of the trade off between better paint smoothing and paint removal.
- You are responsible to checking out credentials for the detailers...don't get a crap result then start to dig. Ask the questions up front.
#45
06-08-2009, 08:31 PM
Premium Sponsor
Great Input
Interesting thread. I don't have detailer experience, so my input is from the client/home gamer perspective.
I think the detailer needs to be very careful regarding:
I think the detailer needs to be very careful regarding:
- Expectations regarding outcome
- Home much paint they need to remove to get there
- risks
- cost
- you can't fix paint without removing paint. You can't go to this well a million times. It is like a porcelain sink...eventually the steel starts to show through and no quantity of polish will fix that.
- Detailers who are not experienced (expert) are not going to be able to make the best decision on how much paint needs to be removed to get the desired outcome. A rookie might be able to bring your paint to a smooth finish, but if they take off twice the amout of clear coat...is that a good solution?
- In markets where there is more competition, you will pay more but get better understanding of the trade off between better paint smoothing and paint removal.
- You are responsible to checking out credentials for the detailers...don't get a crap result then start to dig. Ask the questions up front.
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