where would porsche be with out the cayenne for profit... there would be no more 911's... maybe Ford or GM would buy porsche. how would you like that?

p.s i like my cayenne its alot of fun for a 5000lbs suv

 

I couldn't agree more with Watt. I grew up watching Peter Gregg in the 59 Brumos car, Bruce Mclaren (sp?), Denny Hulme, John Paul Jr., and Sr., Al Holbert in the Lowenbrau 14 car, the Whittingtons, the Kremer Brothers, Rolf Stommelen, Klaus Ludwig, Jackie Ickyx (sp?) and a host of others racing 917Ks and various deriviations, 934s, 935s, 935 LMs, 956s and 962s. I went to college in Riverside, CA., in part because of the Times Grand Prix 6-Hour Enduro at the old Riverside International Raceway (now a bunch of residential subdivions) where Gregg, my favorite driver, routinely showed why his talent was bigger than life. I don't subscribe to the opinion that the Cayenne saved Porsche independence, although I appreciate the views of those who do.

I use my four nephews, all of whom are car junkies like their uncle, as a gauge. They range in age from 18 to 29. One's a ne'er do well, one is a minister with degrees in theology and psychology, one just graduated from law school and is studying for the bar and the other is a college freshmen. They never speak of Porsche when, with their father, we're all just hanging out shooting the **** about cars. One doesn't really care as much about cars as the rest of us but the minister and lawyer are waiting for the upcoming Lexus high performance division and the college freshman is sure the upcoming ZO6 will be the end-all-be-all for high performance cars.

I mention all this because I believe there is a serious disconnect between Porsche and its potential customers. We don't count because we're all steeped in the Porsche legend. When we pass on, where will the replacements come from? Anybody in the auto business should be extremely concerned about official Lexus/Toyota press releases. It intends to compete at the $100,000+ price point with a sports car and it will be establishing an AMG/M-type high performance division. Its high performance hybrid vehicles will set standards in effiency, power and fuel mileage that, only yesterday, seemed unfathomable.

Here you have the world's #2 car maker (in terms of units sold; its #1 in almost every other measure) who is the very best at production, manufacturing, initial quality, long-term quality, reliablity, durability and cost containment and has over $45 billion in cash reserves deciding it will compete at the highest levels in terms of performance and at price points heretofore reserved for the Germans. It already has the broadest and deepest racing program in the world (F-1, WRC, NASCAR, Pikes Peak, JGTC, Off-Road truck racing, etc.) and it has already shown the ability to focus like no other company. So now that it's getting serious about high performance sports cars, what do you guys think is going to happen?

Read all the posts about Mercedes Benz buying back its top of the line AMG models from members of this board and how many members of this board gloss over issues that would drive a Lexus owner to drink.....simply because it is a Porsche. Yeah, I know about the inevitable retorts. Lexus has no style, panache, racing history, etc. To that I say I'm old enough to remember 1989 when the first LS 400s were released and all the German CEOs and industry analysts scoffed with barely concealed contempt at this Japanese upstart that had the temerity to attempt to play in their sandbox.

So when the next 500 hp ZO6 arrives at less than half the cost of a 997TT and the Lexus LX470 high performance hybrid produces over 400 hp and returns econobox fuel mileage, where will Porsche go? Even now, from an outright performance/value standpoint, there is some mighty strong competition. But, if ever there was a company that could truly afford to have halo cars, its Toyota. Someone mentioned the Fiat/Ferrari model and I think this is a good point. A Porsche company not at the top of its sports car game will, inevitably, give up some leverage in acquistion/merger discussions, making it questionable whether it can command and retain the level of autonomy enjoyed by Ferrari.

Maybe I'm all wet, but the future of Porsche, at least the Porsche we used to know, is not very bright. I would be glad to read the opinions of those who think it is as I'm certainly not promoting my comments as the gospel.

One last thing. The second order vibrations (I think) in the Carrera GT V10 that Porsche is telling its customer is normal, well....it is. V-10s typically have vibration problems, inherent or not. These second order vibrations threatened to shelve the Toyota/Lexus V10 program (because it couldn't meet Lexus NVH standards) until the problem was solved by Toyota Team Europe, the factory's F-1 effort. One would think the manufacturers of a half-million dollar car would have licked this problem before putting the car in the hands of waiting customers.

 

well, i for one, love and have always loved porsches but cannot see owning one for anything but a second car. the NA engines just make "decent" power, but the turbos are great. why would i buy a carrera that is small, uncomfortable and has a choppy ride when i could have an e55 or next generation m5 that would blow the doors off of one on the streets in the hands of a capable driver (or at the minimal be equal in street races of which are not the brightest anyways)?? believe me, i know! i drive an e55, and have many times humilified owners of porches just b/c of driver talent ON THE STREET. like i said, don't get me wrong, i would love to be able to afford at least two cars b/c the TT would be in that lineup, but as for everyday comfort, this isn't the early 70's any longer where you had the seperation of true sports cars AND luxury sedans....now they intermingle! remember, to all of the flamers (this IS a porsche sight i realize), i am talking about do-all vehicles! porsche just doesn't have that segment of the market and this is where i see a downfall untill the new 4 door is released....if it will be.

 

I would really like to see Lexus make a $100K luxury sports car that can whoop a GT2 or GT3 around a racetrack. I don't think it's gonna happen.

Many have tried, all have failed. There is no substitute.

Toyota can't even beat Ferrari at F1! And Toyota has way more resources and money than Fiat.

Lexus may compete against Mercedes, but their target buyer is different from the typical 7 series or S-Class customer. Lexus is for people who want a nice car but don't know **** about cars. Lexus still does not get prestige status nor respect from the elite crowd-- in fact, the impression that it gives off is that you were either too clueless, cheap, or poor to buy an S500 or 745Li. That car has absolutely NO SOUL whatsoever. You might as well save money and buy a Lincoln Town Car, because that's how it rides.

GT2Next, you should reevaluate your comments when and if you actually buy a GT2. Comparing it to a pig like the E55 is just plain silly. If you had much seat time in a GT2, it would be obvious that Mercedes is ****, and there is no such thing as a do-it-all car. I have an M5 that has a $7000+ ACS DFC suspension and it still doesn't hold a candle to a GT car.

 

tyson knows for SOUL,

you gotta buy Italian!!!!

Fewaji's and Masi's uber alles

 

hamann7, don't get your feathers all ruffled. LOL. if you read my post again (which i suggest), i was NOT talking about quickest lap times, but rather a great do-all car that is comfortable AND quick and bigger for everyday use than the NA (naturally aspirated) carerras. i DID state "street driving", and am not interested in getting the quickest elapsed times to the market and back. lol. to me, buying a na carrera that is, although fun to drive, not the best everyday car doesn't make sense, especially when considering the path sports sedans are taking these days. THAT is what my reply was about. i agree that japanese cars have no soul.
maybe now would be the right time to re-read my original post above.

 

I wouldn't keep banging that drum anymore. It seems that the smaller Japanese companies are getting it together. Our Subie WRX is a great little car, and feels every bit a solid, tight, and fun as our old Jetta did, only with a lot more power. And it does have character. And our Mitsu EVO 8? Wow! It just loves to be driven hard. It literally screams "wind me to the redline & slam me into a corner". It is a very impatient car, and not at all happy just cruising down the road. Both these cars have soul, and personality, as much as any Porsche I have every driven. Maybe Toyotas are still sanitized, but the little guys have figured it out.

 

Did you sell your GT2???

I see that italian salad in your sig....

 

gt2next, I guess it all depends on how you drive on the street. Personally, I'd still rather have a Porsche over a Mercedes even just for street use, but that's just me. Getting onto freeway onramps, carving canyons, and drifting around right turns on an empty street are still more fun in a sports car.

It was a sad day when watt decided to join the pimp society.

WRX or Lancer EVO, though great value buys, still ain't a GT3. Not even close. And those cars still feel very 'japanese.' The only semi-exciting rice rocket to me is the Skyline GT-R. But that still is no substitute for a Porsche.

Like the old adage says, you get what you pay for!

 

Knowing that my neighbor and friend has decided to get a Stradale and a Maserati Quattroporte is rather disconcerting. I almost cried when I saw that silver Stradale, only to see his former slate GT2 for sale at the Concours on Rodeo later that morning.

I tried to reason and rationalize, but alas I couldn't. Hopefully my friend will realize the error of his ways and come back to find the path to righteousness.

We should all say a prayer for him.

On the other hand, I'm trying to find a way to outdo his outrageous behavior. But short of bringing a stripper from 4Play to dinner, I don't think I can!

 

Amen!!!

I wunder how Team WotaGuy feels about this betrayal???

 

Watt, if you read this, post pics of the CS. If he doesn't read this, will one of his neighbors get him to post pics of his CS? Did I read correctly on Fchat that it has already been to the shop (how ling has he had it)?

 

Perhaps it's running low on Chianti!!!

 

Agreed, they are no GT3. But they are MORE than an equal for a boxster, and the EVO is quite a bit more exciting. And they don't feel as Japanese as you may think.

This is only serving to draw more buyers away from Porsche; the original topic in this thread. Why pay 40 or 50K when you can spend 32K and have a killer car? And add to the fact that today's buyers were raised on Japanese cars, and you have a tough sell for Porsche. Wait till those buyers make some real money & Toyota starts building high end sports cars that don't break and run like silk. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what they'll buy.

 

Chris,

fine italiano Machineries needs to be "fettled" or heavy PDI where they massage the softwares and Bless the car in a magnificent religious ceremony.

" and the Lord said, let there be Ferrari...."

and while you may pound chianti with your sausages as a GT3 pilot; I have converted to oil cured olives, carpaccio and fine pinot grigio