e46 M3 to 997 GT3 what to expect?
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I have an 03 e46 M3 and am thinking about an 07 GT3.
==> no offense, but you are moving from a POS to a real car. i had both. the only good car bmw made lately is E30m3. after that is one POS after another.
I expect it will be a ton faster and handle better.
==> faster on straight stock to stock, yes.
==> handle better. well, only after you get used to rear engine cars. most bimmerhead find GT3 twitchy and spin them often on track. in fact i know of only two bimmerhead who got into GT3 and were fast right from the get go. they were real talents.
==> but once you learn it, you will love it.
Will the learning curve on the track be longer. I have no experience with the rear engine set-up?
==> SIGNIFICANTLY longer.
Am I right in assuming You need to brake earlier into a turn and be on gas sooner to plant rear end?
==> in theory yes. but your right foot will not have the ***** to get on gas sooner. trust me it takes years to do that.
PASM on or off ultimately?
==> pasm is shock setting. it's soft or firm, not on and off. depending on track. at sebring, you would be on soft. at thunderhill i like firm for exmaple.
What would I have to do wrong to cause major oversteer?
==> lift
==> no offense, but you are moving from a POS to a real car. i had both. the only good car bmw made lately is E30m3. after that is one POS after another.
I expect it will be a ton faster and handle better.
==> faster on straight stock to stock, yes.
==> handle better. well, only after you get used to rear engine cars. most bimmerhead find GT3 twitchy and spin them often on track. in fact i know of only two bimmerhead who got into GT3 and were fast right from the get go. they were real talents.
==> but once you learn it, you will love it.
Will the learning curve on the track be longer. I have no experience with the rear engine set-up?
==> SIGNIFICANTLY longer.
Am I right in assuming You need to brake earlier into a turn and be on gas sooner to plant rear end?
==> in theory yes. but your right foot will not have the ***** to get on gas sooner. trust me it takes years to do that.
PASM on or off ultimately?
==> pasm is shock setting. it's soft or firm, not on and off. depending on track. at sebring, you would be on soft. at thunderhill i like firm for exmaple.
What would I have to do wrong to cause major oversteer?
==> lift
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I have an 03 e46 M3 and am thinking about an 07 GT3.
==> no offense, but you are moving from a POS to a real car. i had both. the only good car bmw made lately is E30m3. after that is one POS after another.
I expect it will be a ton faster and handle better.
==> faster on straight stock to stock, yes.
==> handle better. well, only after you get used to rear engine cars. most bimmerhead find GT3 twitchy and spin them often on track. in fact i know of only two bimmerhead who got into GT3 and were fast right from the get go. they were real talents.
==> but once you learn it, you will love it.
Will the learning curve on the track be longer. I have no experience with the rear engine set-up?
==> SIGNIFICANTLY longer.
Am I right in assuming You need to brake earlier into a turn and be on gas sooner to plant rear end?
==> in theory yes. but your right foot will not have the ***** to get on gas sooner. trust me it takes years to do that.
PASM on or off ultimately?
==> pasm is shock setting. it's soft or firm, not on and off. depending on track. at sebring, you would be on soft. at thunderhill i like firm for exmaple.
What would I have to do wrong to cause major oversteer?
==> lift
==> no offense, but you are moving from a POS to a real car. i had both. the only good car bmw made lately is E30m3. after that is one POS after another.
I expect it will be a ton faster and handle better.
==> faster on straight stock to stock, yes.
==> handle better. well, only after you get used to rear engine cars. most bimmerhead find GT3 twitchy and spin them often on track. in fact i know of only two bimmerhead who got into GT3 and were fast right from the get go. they were real talents.
==> but once you learn it, you will love it.
Will the learning curve on the track be longer. I have no experience with the rear engine set-up?
==> SIGNIFICANTLY longer.
Am I right in assuming You need to brake earlier into a turn and be on gas sooner to plant rear end?
==> in theory yes. but your right foot will not have the ***** to get on gas sooner. trust me it takes years to do that.
PASM on or off ultimately?
==> pasm is shock setting. it's soft or firm, not on and off. depending on track. at sebring, you would be on soft. at thunderhill i like firm for exmaple.
What would I have to do wrong to cause major oversteer?
==> lift
All so true.DONT LIFT! This is much easier said then done, especially coming from an M3. A word of advice, if and when you inevitably lift and spin dont lose heart, it happens to everyone. Like everyone else said, take it slow. Although for a road car the GT3 is incredibly fast dont expect to be fast out of the box. Your best bet, if you can, is to DE with PCA. They are extremely strict and some of the best instructors you'll get.
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listen to mooty 
i drive an e46 m3 (pos according to mooty) daily and it drives day and night compared to the 7gt3 especially on the track. never never ever lift just take it easy the first few laps and yes.. it will take a long time to get use to the handling of the e46 m3 vs 7gt3. i also found the 7gt3 very twitch vs the m3.
i drive an e46 m3 (pos according to mooty) daily and it drives day and night compared to the 7gt3 especially on the track. never never ever lift just take it easy the first few laps and yes.. it will take a long time to get use to the handling of the e46 m3 vs 7gt3. i also found the 7gt3 very twitch vs the m3.
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Lifting in any car can cause massive oversteer. 
The absolute best advice is to find a wet skid pad and play with weight transfer. Once you are comfortable balancing the GT3 with the throttle, then you'll be alot faster on track. The track is typically the wrong place to practice weight transfer and balancing the car, even if you've got tons of track experience, especially with the GT3 because it has tons of mechanical grip.
If your local track doesn't have one, everybody has a local "Street Survival" course hosted by Tire Rack, in which they have a wet skid pad that you can practice this on.
Or, you can just go to a big, empty parking lot with some cones after a good rain and set up your own skid pad. You'd be amazed by how many people have never practiced on a skid pad, and it's far more educational than when on track because it's a much lower speed and far safer. By doing this, you'll be faster out of the box and be more prepared to handle any situations that arise on-track, and eventually using your weight transfer knowledge to your advantage.
The absolute best advice is to find a wet skid pad and play with weight transfer. Once you are comfortable balancing the GT3 with the throttle, then you'll be alot faster on track. The track is typically the wrong place to practice weight transfer and balancing the car, even if you've got tons of track experience, especially with the GT3 because it has tons of mechanical grip.
If your local track doesn't have one, everybody has a local "Street Survival" course hosted by Tire Rack, in which they have a wet skid pad that you can practice this on.
Or, you can just go to a big, empty parking lot with some cones after a good rain and set up your own skid pad. You'd be amazed by how many people have never practiced on a skid pad, and it's far more educational than when on track because it's a much lower speed and far safer. By doing this, you'll be faster out of the box and be more prepared to handle any situations that arise on-track, and eventually using your weight transfer knowledge to your advantage.
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As an instructor who drives and races a '97 911 I have one word of advice for you: RESPECT.
Your e46 is a very neutral car. The GT3 has very nice balance with the ingenius engineering feats - HOWEVER, the engine and tranny (some of it) still reside behind the rear axle and this needs your respect.
Pay attention to the throttle. You will be able to put down more power down earlier in turns but you need to be prepared for the dance when that baby decides to step out.
Agree on skid pad training. Helps quite a bit. Try to visit tracks with lots of run off.
Your e46 is a very neutral car. The GT3 has very nice balance with the ingenius engineering feats - HOWEVER, the engine and tranny (some of it) still reside behind the rear axle and this needs your respect.
Pay attention to the throttle. You will be able to put down more power down earlier in turns but you need to be prepared for the dance when that baby decides to step out.
Agree on skid pad training. Helps quite a bit. Try to visit tracks with lots of run off.
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Best advice yet. That's why I love Putnam Park. Great place for learning a new car, or for hustling in a really nice car.
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I had a 2003 E46 M3 coupe, really not a very good car, but not a POS as someone said. I now have a 2008 E92 M3 coupe. The best M3 by far, and I have had all of them. The closest BMW will ever be to Porsche handling. I also have a 2007 GT3, which is infinitely better than any M3. They are completely different cars with different purposes. The GT3 is much more raw, with MUCH better brakes. Brakes are a big problem with any M3 I have ever had. It's much faster and much better handling.
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If you dont want massive oversteer don't lift and don't coast.
The most important thing to do is be on the brakes or be on the gas all the time.
Leave PSM on, I had a E46 M3 and an E60 M5 their DSC is no where near the PSM of Porsche. The E46 and the E60 would both have DSC going crazy just from simply switching gears fast. In my 997TT I can go through corners with the tires chirping the entire time and the car's PSM light doesn't flash once.
It will let you be at the adhesion limits through a corner and wont be intrusive unless you cause serious oversteer, so it will give you a chance to really get familiar with the car and push it safely.
The most important thing to do is be on the brakes or be on the gas all the time.
Leave PSM on, I had a E46 M3 and an E60 M5 their DSC is no where near the PSM of Porsche. The E46 and the E60 would both have DSC going crazy just from simply switching gears fast. In my 997TT I can go through corners with the tires chirping the entire time and the car's PSM light doesn't flash once.
It will let you be at the adhesion limits through a corner and wont be intrusive unless you cause serious oversteer, so it will give you a chance to really get familiar with the car and push it safely.
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Mvez provides good advice. The best way to learn to drive any race car with a tendency to oversteer (or understeer) is use a dedicated skidcar (better) or skidpad (okay). The current generation of 911s are not that 'tail-happy' as older ones were. If you can learn to race well, you can race any car well, period.
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Here are my thoughts as a BMWCCA instructor and Nationally Certified PCA track instructor and owner of both the e-46 M3 and GT3:
The M3 is a compromise car that does everything well and is relatively easy to drive on track. The GT3 is a focused track car stock out of the box.
ON THE STREET
No doubt, the GT3 is nice, but no where as comfortable as the M3. Longer trips, especially if you drive to tracks will wear on you in the GT3.
ON THE TRACK
Assuming you tracked the M3 and are going to track the GT3, you will have to change your driving style and depending on how much seat time you have when you finally get your GT3, don't be surprised if it takes you a year to figure out the GT3.
TURN IN:
The first thing you will learn is that the turn in is different in the GT3. Two things are evident, the added weight of the M3 and the more precise steering feel of the GT3.
With the M3 you generally start your turn in earlier to set the suspension and get the car to lean a little before you actually feel the car rotate. There is no need for that in the GT3. When you want to turn in, you simply do it as it is telepathic in nature and the steering feel is not as light as the M3.
BRAKING:
In the M3 you can late brake and stomp on the brakes and it doesn't tend to upset the car. With the GT3 you do have to brake a tad bit earlier, set your foot on the brake pedal, set the nose and then squeeeeeeze down and then gently lessen the pressure on the brake. If you try to slam on the brakes in a GT3 like you do in the M3, you will feel a good amount of ABS feed back through the pedal. The reason for this is the weight distribution characteristics of a front vs. rear engine car. The nose of the GT3 is generally lighter by a good margin than the M3 and needs a different braking style.
APPLYING THE THROTTLE:
One of the advantages of the 911 is that once you more confident, you can apply the throttle much soon than you can in the M3. Once again, this is due to the weight distribution of the GT3 having the mass behind the rear axle. Generally speaking, you should be able to apply the throttle before the apex depending on the corner, track and of course run off area if there is any
REGARDING LIFT:
The old saying of "Don't Lift" in a 911 still holds true, but once you get used to the GT3, you can use this to your advantage to rotate the car in mid corner. A good 911 driver will trail brake into a corner, lift to rotate and then almost immediately apply the throttle to power through the corner.
PRACTICING
Do not practice with your GT3 on the street or big track. Take it to an autocross or as someone else already mentioned, a street survivial event where you can really test the limits of the car and see what it will do. This is probably the best thing you can do to learn car control with a new car and DEFINITELY go over the limits of the car and yourself to feel how, where, why the car spins.
CONSUMABLES
Because of the faster speeds and lateral loads, the GT3 will consume a considerable amount more of the following items:
Tires (2 to 1 ratio of the rear to fronts)
Brakes (both pads and rotors)
Without a doubt, you will find that the GT3 is probably the best car you have ever driven. I know it's the best car I've ever owned.
Have Fun!
The M3 is a compromise car that does everything well and is relatively easy to drive on track. The GT3 is a focused track car stock out of the box.
ON THE STREET
No doubt, the GT3 is nice, but no where as comfortable as the M3. Longer trips, especially if you drive to tracks will wear on you in the GT3.
ON THE TRACK
Assuming you tracked the M3 and are going to track the GT3, you will have to change your driving style and depending on how much seat time you have when you finally get your GT3, don't be surprised if it takes you a year to figure out the GT3.
TURN IN:
The first thing you will learn is that the turn in is different in the GT3. Two things are evident, the added weight of the M3 and the more precise steering feel of the GT3.
With the M3 you generally start your turn in earlier to set the suspension and get the car to lean a little before you actually feel the car rotate. There is no need for that in the GT3. When you want to turn in, you simply do it as it is telepathic in nature and the steering feel is not as light as the M3.
BRAKING:
In the M3 you can late brake and stomp on the brakes and it doesn't tend to upset the car. With the GT3 you do have to brake a tad bit earlier, set your foot on the brake pedal, set the nose and then squeeeeeeze down and then gently lessen the pressure on the brake. If you try to slam on the brakes in a GT3 like you do in the M3, you will feel a good amount of ABS feed back through the pedal. The reason for this is the weight distribution characteristics of a front vs. rear engine car. The nose of the GT3 is generally lighter by a good margin than the M3 and needs a different braking style.
APPLYING THE THROTTLE:
One of the advantages of the 911 is that once you more confident, you can apply the throttle much soon than you can in the M3. Once again, this is due to the weight distribution of the GT3 having the mass behind the rear axle. Generally speaking, you should be able to apply the throttle before the apex depending on the corner, track and of course run off area if there is any
REGARDING LIFT:
The old saying of "Don't Lift" in a 911 still holds true, but once you get used to the GT3, you can use this to your advantage to rotate the car in mid corner. A good 911 driver will trail brake into a corner, lift to rotate and then almost immediately apply the throttle to power through the corner.
PRACTICING
Do not practice with your GT3 on the street or big track. Take it to an autocross or as someone else already mentioned, a street survivial event where you can really test the limits of the car and see what it will do. This is probably the best thing you can do to learn car control with a new car and DEFINITELY go over the limits of the car and yourself to feel how, where, why the car spins.
CONSUMABLES
Because of the faster speeds and lateral loads, the GT3 will consume a considerable amount more of the following items:
Tires (2 to 1 ratio of the rear to fronts)
Brakes (both pads and rotors)
Without a doubt, you will find that the GT3 is probably the best car you have ever driven. I know it's the best car I've ever owned.
Have Fun!
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I have an 03 e46 M3 and am thinking about an 07 GT3. I expect it will be a ton faster and handle better. Anyone with direct experience? Will the learning curve on the track be longer. I have no experience with the rear engine set-up? Am I right in assuming You need to brake earlier into a turn and be on gas sooner to plant rear end? PASM on or off ultimately? What would I have to do wrong to cause major oversteer? Thanks
I came out of a 04 E46 M3 with a street setup for the suspension and the experience is quite different. Actually the brakes on the 997 are simply amazing and you can actually stop later and then accelerate out of the corner faster because you will be able to start accelerating sooner due to the rear engine. I found you can point the front of the car very easily with the throttle. You really can't appreciate a 997 let alone a GT3 until you are at speed.
Dave
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Another M3 (E36 and E46) -> GT3 (996) driver here. Like Formula 1 mentioned above, rotating the 911 by throttle (or steering a car with your gas paddle) is something that you should look forward to learn along with the braking. I never learned to rotate the car well in an M3 since it is a well balanced car and offers very neutral drivings. 911, you gotta be used to rotate, slide, shift a lot of weight around. Down hill turns where you lift off the gas a little to rotate and point the nose of the car to the exit of the corner = most addicting thing you could do in an 911.
I would also go for a big track with a lot of run off room to practice/play around and get to know the car. AutoX are good place but you definitely need a high speed turns with some elevation changes for better idea of the car.
I would also go for a big track with a lot of run off room to practice/play around and get to know the car. AutoX are good place but you definitely need a high speed turns with some elevation changes for better idea of the car.
Last edited by datax; Apr 21, 2009 at 10:36 AM.
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Formula One-
Great advice. I am certifiable, but no longer certified as a PCA instructor...
One thing you can learn to do well in a 911 GT3 is trail-braking (decelerating while turning). Although many PCA instructors say "always brake in a straight line", a GT3 is a good vehicle for late entry, trail-brake, and then onto full acceleration. Always smooth transitions, quoting Ross Bentley.
Great advice. I am certifiable, but no longer certified as a PCA instructor...
One thing you can learn to do well in a 911 GT3 is trail-braking (decelerating while turning). Although many PCA instructors say "always brake in a straight line", a GT3 is a good vehicle for late entry, trail-brake, and then onto full acceleration. Always smooth transitions, quoting Ross Bentley.