GTR 7:26.7 Ring Video
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"marginally reduced propulsion"
That is the effect of short-shifting in the GT2.
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Which adds up over a long track like the ring. Also intersting that SA's time for the GT2 is within 4 seconds of Porsche's claimed time while the 2010 GT-R is 10 seconds off the times Nissan reported last April.
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Harris went 88.7% of HvS's pace in the GT2 @ Flugplatz.
Harris went 88.3% of HvS's pace in the GT-R @ Flugplatz.
Point being, Harris was not noticeably different from a dry-weather run done by HvS, even when short-shifting. The short-shifting in the GT2 didn't appear to make a world of difference. "...marginally reduced propulsion..." Ie, it's no big difference. You guys are blowing this short-shifting crap way over the top.
And how do we know for a fact that the GT2 can be driven full-bore everywhere even in the dry? It's entirely possible that through many sections of the 'Ring, even a god like Rohrl would find it difficult to put down full WOT 100% of the time anyway. You seriously think the CCX was doing full 100% WOT during its lap? Look at the ZR1: Mero was short-shifting in plenty of places, even in the dry.
What is a world of difference is Harris vs HvS @ Angstkurve: Harris was slower than HvS by 17 kph! That's not likely a difference due to tires alone. An E46 M3 on its standard tires is only 7 kph slower here than a lighter CSL for sure on much grippier Micheline Pilot Sport Cups.
Did you fail to notice that Suzuki ran with VDC-off, again? That pretty much blows your theory that VDC-R is faster. HvS ran with VDC-R.
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Way short? HvS was 12 seconds slower than the 7:38 that Suzuki set on the same day. How do you explain that, heavy? Oh, wait. You already did: the driver. HvS laps at DE pace, right?
Who were these "others" you are talking about?
No, not over 20 seconds. Look at what Tom Colonel did between his 1st and 2nd laps in the ACR, with no modifications to the car: 7 seconds dropped. And this is with a seasoned Viper driver at the wheel, who has raced Vipers on the NRing. Why would it be unreasonable to assume that Gulden could knock, say, 7 seconds off his lap time, if he had more than one single lap? Then there is the length of the pits, maybe another 4 seconds right there. Clearly, a racing driver learning a brand new car to him on a single lap of the 'Ring will be affected by the RHD layout of the car: his perspective, sense of balance and sense of the car's extremities will be different. Road works was mentioned; if they didn't mean anything, it wouldn't have been mentioned. So we can see where an easy 11 seconds can be found. 7:51 - 10 = 7:40. That's well within 20 seconds of the 7:26 time.
The AMuS test got 7:47 over the full course. Subtract ~4 seconds for the pit straight, and that's a 7:43. That's well within 20 seconds, and not even counting TENTHS.
Only an idiot would think I act like it's a downpour. I'm saying it's not an optimal test. Are you now claiming that it's optimal? The important thing is to look at the relative performance: Suzuki, driving during the same timeframe, also on Bridgestones, lapped 12 seconds faster than HvS.
Had Chris Harris ever driven a rear-engine Porsche at racing speeds on the 'Ring before? Answer yes or no, heavy.
Also, Harris had one more lap in the GT2 than in the GT-R.
Re: shortshifting
"Exiting the Hatzenbach, the early, technical section of track, I'm short-shifting everywhere. This is partly because I'm unsure whether full-afterburner is possible on the exit of some turns, but also because the car chews through each gear so quickly that, given an option of two-hands-on-the-wheel security and marginally reduced propulsion, I'm staying with it. To give you an idea of its ability to wind on the numbers, even using this early-shift technique heading downhill to Schwedenkreuz (to allow for a few damp patches), the GT2 hits 162 mph. The GT-R, using every last revolution and with its instant gearshift, manages only 157 mph."
Harris reached 98.0% of HvS's speed in the GT2 at Schwedenkreuz, even with short-shifting.
Harris reached 97.2% of HvS's speed in the GT-R.
"Peak speed in the Fuchsroehre
GT2 151.4 mph
GT-R 149.6 mph
Full throttle all the way down in the GT-R, short-shifted in the GT2."
Harris reached 96.7% of HvS's speed in the GT2, even with short-shifting.
Harris reached 95.5% of HvS's speed in the GT-R.
Also, weren't you the one insinuating that the GT-R's Bridgestones have a durometer rating like a genuine MPSC (and not the harder Cup+)? Why are you now choosing to ignore this "fact"? Is it because in 7-degree C weather, it's possible the GT-R would perform worse than the lighter GT2 on Cup+?
"We set out to build a multi-performance supercar accessible to anyone, anytime and anywhere."
Just because the GT-R is 7 seconds slower than the GT2 on the same day with an experienced Porsche driver doesn't mean that slogan doesn't apply. Poor logic again, heavy.
Who were these "others" you are talking about?
No, not over 20 seconds. Look at what Tom Colonel did between his 1st and 2nd laps in the ACR, with no modifications to the car: 7 seconds dropped. And this is with a seasoned Viper driver at the wheel, who has raced Vipers on the NRing. Why would it be unreasonable to assume that Gulden could knock, say, 7 seconds off his lap time, if he had more than one single lap? Then there is the length of the pits, maybe another 4 seconds right there. Clearly, a racing driver learning a brand new car to him on a single lap of the 'Ring will be affected by the RHD layout of the car: his perspective, sense of balance and sense of the car's extremities will be different. Road works was mentioned; if they didn't mean anything, it wouldn't have been mentioned. So we can see where an easy 11 seconds can be found. 7:51 - 10 = 7:40. That's well within 20 seconds of the 7:26 time.
The AMuS test got 7:47 over the full course. Subtract ~4 seconds for the pit straight, and that's a 7:43. That's well within 20 seconds, and not even counting TENTHS.
Only an idiot would think I act like it's a downpour. I'm saying it's not an optimal test. Are you now claiming that it's optimal? The important thing is to look at the relative performance: Suzuki, driving during the same timeframe, also on Bridgestones, lapped 12 seconds faster than HvS.
Had Chris Harris ever driven a rear-engine Porsche at racing speeds on the 'Ring before? Answer yes or no, heavy.
Also, Harris had one more lap in the GT2 than in the GT-R.
Re: shortshifting
"Exiting the Hatzenbach, the early, technical section of track, I'm short-shifting everywhere. This is partly because I'm unsure whether full-afterburner is possible on the exit of some turns, but also because the car chews through each gear so quickly that, given an option of two-hands-on-the-wheel security and marginally reduced propulsion, I'm staying with it. To give you an idea of its ability to wind on the numbers, even using this early-shift technique heading downhill to Schwedenkreuz (to allow for a few damp patches), the GT2 hits 162 mph. The GT-R, using every last revolution and with its instant gearshift, manages only 157 mph."
Harris reached 98.0% of HvS's speed in the GT2 at Schwedenkreuz, even with short-shifting.
Harris reached 97.2% of HvS's speed in the GT-R.
"Peak speed in the Fuchsroehre
GT2 151.4 mph
GT-R 149.6 mph
Full throttle all the way down in the GT-R, short-shifted in the GT2."
Harris reached 96.7% of HvS's speed in the GT2, even with short-shifting.
Harris reached 95.5% of HvS's speed in the GT-R.
Also, weren't you the one insinuating that the GT-R's Bridgestones have a durometer rating like a genuine MPSC (and not the harder Cup+)? Why are you now choosing to ignore this "fact"? Is it because in 7-degree C weather, it's possible the GT-R would perform worse than the lighter GT2 on Cup+?
"We set out to build a multi-performance supercar accessible to anyone, anytime and anywhere."
Just because the GT-R is 7 seconds slower than the GT2 on the same day with an experienced Porsche driver doesn't mean that slogan doesn't apply. Poor logic again, heavy.
Let's see what else:
-THE PIT LANE IS NOT 4 SECONDS!!!!!!! ANYONE CAN LOOK AND SEE THAT!!!
-Harris has experience in Porsches, but he was still driving the GT-R harder and has driven so many comparos recently in the GT-R he has plenty enough seat time to know the car.
-You are now subtracting seconds to get to 11 seconds slower than Nissan. How great is that?
-You still maintain that Suzuki was on Bridgestones when Nissan clearly states he wasn't. They gain something by lying about the ring time (publicity), they gain absolutely nothing by claiming they were on the faster of two tires when they were on the slower ones.
-HvS was ALSO driving a NON-production car so it makes sense that his car was faster in certain parts of the track. Your percentages are useless, post the freakin speeds already.
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I'm still looking for the reason as to why HvS was ~9 seconds slower than Magnussen in the Z06, 19 seconds slower in the C6, and 14 seconds slower in the 997 Turbo. Or how a Panamera Turbo can outrun a CTS-V, despite 50 less hp and 200 more kg's...
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You guys are blowing this short-shifting crap way over the top.
And how do we know for a fact that the GT2 can be driven full-bore everywhere even in the dry? It's entirely possible that through many sections of the 'Ring, even a god like Rohrl would find it difficult to put down full WOT 100% of the time anyway.
And how do we know for a fact that the GT2 can be driven full-bore everywhere even in the dry? It's entirely possible that through many sections of the 'Ring, even a god like Rohrl would find it difficult to put down full WOT 100% of the time anyway.
[Drivel about CCX snipped]
Don't know what you're babbling about here. I said VDC-R didn't appear to hold back Harris. He made no mention of it. In fact, he was able to slide wider in the GT-R than the GT2 during the wet lap testing even with VDC-R on. That would seem to indicate VDC-R wasn't as intrusive as you claim it is.
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Thank you for confirming yet again that what Gulden did (only 1 lap) was nothing like Suzuki's effort.
Do you think the ACR is more progressive or less progressive at the limit than a race car on full racing slicks?
They were mistaken about the tires. It's hard to lie about the lap times when you provide 3 videos showing it, and lo and behold, a German journalist driving at DE pace gets close enough.
You can find the speeds yourself.
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You still think the 17 kph difference @ Angstkurve is due to tires? LOL.
Don't know what you're babbling about here. I said VDC-R didn't appear to hold back Harris. He made no mention of it. In fact, he was able to slide wider in the GT-R than the GT2 during the wet lap testing even with VDC-R on. That would seem to indicate VDC-R wasn't as intrusive as you claim it is.
Of course he didn't mention it. Why would he? That would only be admitting he didn't get the most out of the car. Are you telling me you see no discernible difference in the driving style of these two drivers?
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"Nissan claims its testers have recorded a 7min 37sec lap of the Nurburgring but, apparently, certain sections of the lap were wet when the time was set. They also have data for a 7min 38sec lap on which the driver was blocked by a slower car for several corners. Both laps were recorded using original equipment Bridgestone RE070A tyres, in other words with the car containing no secret tweaks or tricks."
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/roadtes...p?c=47&i=17295
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His feelings on the matter are far closer to "proof" than anything you've posted.
Being able to slide wider means he's getting the most out of the car? LOL. I could go understeering wide of any corner there in a GT-R. It doesn't mean that's the best way to get around in the car. And he mentioned the GT-R sliding wider in a bad way: because of its mass and this dry-biased tires, the GT-R slid wide where the GT2 was kept tidy. Way to twist it around!
Gee, maybe because he has a reputation as a straight shooting, honest journalist and has described in voluminous and painstaking detail his driving impressions of both cars around the ring; including a full video commentary? So if I have this right you're implying Harris "left out" the fact that he was hampered by the GT-R's stability system from his lengthy commentary?
He fully admitted he didn't get the most out of both cars but was held back more in the GT2.
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"In their most recent 'Ring runs, Nissan rented the track early Monday morning, and had three GT-R prototypes--spaced one-minute apart--all taking their best shots. One of the GT-Rs was reportedly driven by Horst von Saurma--the same 'Ring specialist that drove the Carrera GT to a 7:32 lap time. Another driver was said to be a Japanese driver named Shimizu--possibly well-known racer Kazuo Shimizu. The third GT-R pilot went un-named. "
They mention three different GT-R's being tested that day by three different drivers and say nothing about which tires were used by which driver. That is hardly proof.
And your pistonheads quote is nothing new. Same old source that is at odds with Nissan's official press statment.
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Does it make that much of a difference? You're also forgetting that I'm comparing Harris in the damp to HvS in the dry: there's not the gulf of difference that you are implying.
He did mention understeer. I didn't see anything about oversteer. And of course he could go WOT in the GT-R with VDC-R: the system automatically cuts engine power once it senses wheelspin, doesn't it? When it does it automatically, where is the need to stay off the throttle or short-shift?
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Here's an article posted a month later, still showing Bridgestones:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...leId=123099#19
And video footage from late September 2007. Still only Bridgestones visible:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...leId=123066#57
The 7:38 car apparently on display at Toshio Suzuki's shop near the 'Ring:
http://www.nagtroc.org/gallery/displ...bum=137&pos=11
None of these by themselves is proof, but taken as a whole they point to Bridgestones. If you're going to take Nissan's words that Bridgestones were on the 7:38 car, then you should take their word that a stock GT-R is capable of sub 7:30's.
Where do you suppose Sutcliffe got the information? He pulled the make and model of the tires, unprompted, out of thin air?