Thank god it's not just me / my car then. Before the Panamera I had an Audi S8 (the V10 variety), a beautiful car I now wish I'd kept (despite its age), that ZF transmission was the perfect complement to a big brutish torquey engine.

Sadly as you pointed out the PTT is very unrefined and "clunky" on part throttle. I tend to drive in manual or Sports because I hate comfort mode.. But yes as you said between 1500 and 3000 rpm you get all sorts of shudders and bangs on/off the throttle. I also tend to shift to neutral when I'm waiting at lights and when you shift back into drive there's a noticeable "clunk" from the rear-end (diff probably) as the fake-creep puts some torque through the drivetrain.

 

That is exactly my biggest issue.

How can a modern car (never mind one in this price range) have any shudder to throttle input???

And we are not talking turbo lag here. I am a fan of my '76 and '94 turbo.

At times, the PTT feels like a carbureted car not getting proper air/fuel ratio.

 

No it's certainly not turbo lag, it feels like there's "play" in the drivetrain somewhere, in 2nd gear you can reproduce it pretty easily by just coming on and off the power. I was seriously considering taking my PTT back to the dealer but I've no idea where they'd even start... to me it seems to be a physical issue combined with poor software.

I've no idea what experience the people who rave about the PDK have of other cars but I've not been impressed. My "weekend family cruiser" a Ferrari 612 with it's single-clutch F1 gearbox feels considerably more solid and predictable.

I think that's the thing, it's the "unpredictability" of these shudders that makes it difficult to drive the car smoothly.

 

I'm still looking for a nice well equipped 2010 TURBO
WHITE or BLACK in the 85k range under 20k for miles
thx

 

The different experiences people have with the PTT make these sound like completely different cars! staceyr and teutonic gt2 must have lemons? Have you guys driven other similar-spec'd PTTs or other Panameras that drive very differently?

I've noticed that the loaner 2012 and 2013 Panameras do shift more smoothly, especially from a stop (the 1-2-3 or 2-3 shifts). Also, the throttle response in comfort mode has been improved, such that it doesn't feel like being in "ECO" mode all the time, which is what mine feels like (mine is a 2011). I've wondered if it's because mine has sport plus, and somehow that changes the comfort mode, but I don't think so. The throttle lag in stop and go traffic, particularly in 2nd and 3rd gears, seems a little better, too. The lag just about goes away in sport plus, but is still there a bit in sport. (mine has 40k miles, so I've driven several different loaners)

The lag when putting the car in reverse is noticeable, especially compared with regular torque converters. It seems to take a few seconds for the clutch to engage fully. For example, when first put in reverse, if you step on the throttle right away, the car puts down maybe at 20% of the power you'd expect it to. You can step on it more, and the speed increases slowly, but eventually you have to back off, wait a couple seconds for it to engage fully, and then you'll get the full, normal response and power in reverse.

For a dual clutch transmission, it is already very good. But it's not perfect. My coworker's dual clutch Golf GTI is smoother off the line. Once you're in 3rd gear and above, it's just about perfect. Porsche seems to have made improvements since 2011, but I'm surprised to hear that the 2012 turbo (maybe an early 2012 / late 2011 model?) still has these issues.

 

Couple points here:

1. You seem to be bothered by the Turbo lag - its not great, you should get a GTS/some other naturally aspirated car, the response will be more immediate, more of a driver's car than a hammer.


2. PDK - You can't compare a PDK on an AWD car to a BMW...the smoothness of double clutch transmissions on RWD cars is far better than on AWD cars...one less train to engage, and this is especially apparent off the line (same with a manual RWD v. manual AWD uptake). Audi is a different story though, can't comment on why they would be smoother with a double clutch, except maybe you drove a non Turbo Audi (R8 V10 etc).

I don't have as much exp with a Turbo, but just some thoughts.

I personally dislike any Turbo charged car...they lack the response of NA - purely personal preference; most people will jump at a Turbo. All turbo cars I've driven seem to struggle at low rev's - which if you read up on their mechanics, makes perfect sense.

 

Hi, I'm not the OP but did reply to this thread, I've done about 5,000 miles in my PTT and you can read my observations above.

My car history includes several AWD, traditional auto and single-clutch 'flappy paddle' gearboxes.

1. It's not turbo lag, the 'lumpiness' is around 1,500 RPM, the Turbo doesn't come in until ~3,000 RPM. That's not to say it's not connected, but it's not "traditional lag" (I've driven several Turbo and Twin-Turbo cars in my time).

2. It's certainly PDK / AWD, however I can't believe it's the AWD system itself (I see no complaints from Panamera 4 owners), plus the AWD on the Panamera is always engaged so I don't get your "less train to engage"... Off the line the PTT is brutal and smooth, what we're taking about here is regular gentle on/off speed adjustment (very tiny accelerator inputs) between 1,500 and 2,500 RPM.

I've owned cars with individually the same technology as the PTT but none with all, notably I've owned two (excellent) Audi's with big power and AWD (S8 and RS6) but the ZF boxes in those make driving with that much power a much smoother experience. On the other side of the equation I've got a Ferrari 612 with a single-clutch F1 gearbox and while not as "fast" perhaps it's certainly smoother and predictable (and never lumpy).

I'll agree with the OP that sometimes the PTT feels like a carb car which needs some choke (cold engine) - even when fully hot and up to running temp ~90C.

 

My comments relate to a shudder coming from the engine between 2-3k RPM. Locked in gear (manual shifting), so the PDK is not the issue. And it's not a question of responsiveness or turbo lag. The car literally shakes.

If you are in the market for a PTT, just make sure you drive it in an "everyday" mode and accelerate in that RPM range. It seems, most people are not bothered by this behavior, but if you are ....

 

Thanks for the review. Granted I've only test driven two PTT over 10 - 15 min, I couldn't agree more about how partial throttle and everyday driving (without sport mode) was extremely disappointing. I would like to test drive a gts sometime.

 

I've driven almost every brands hi dollar sedan. Overall the Panamera Turbo is the clear winner for me.

 

The PDK is the smoothest dual clutch transmission available today and most people will say it's better than the BMW. If it's not feeling that way in your car, then either something isn't right, or it's not the tranny. AWD/RWD/FWD has nothing to do with the smoothness of the transmission. Couldn't be better or smoother on my AWD GTS.

 

You guys amaze me.

1. This is beyond me, really - I mean come on...so Turbos work by taking exhaust gas and shoving it back into the engine, eliminating oxygen as the limiting reactant so the rate of the forward reaction increases.

What happens at 1500 rpm......yea thats right, there is NO exhaust gas to spool back in...whats this called...you guessed it. Turbo lag. The engine needs a certain gas output before the turbos can even exert their effect.


2. You can't compare manual transmission cars/double clutch with an automatic ZF transmission, especially ones with AWD.

a. AWDrivetrains are always engaged, but it still (from a standstill) takes more time to transfer power through two differntials than one with RWD or FWD. Thus there is a slight uptake lag (with manuals) or roughness with douhble clutch, that isn't as noticeable with 2 WD variants.

Don't bring ZF automatics into this, automatics have a torque converter and mushy feeling, its harder to perceive roughess and turbo lag on them.

So overall I see what you're saying, I do think that the PTT's double clutch is much more responsive than a turbo car with an autbox (Your audis), so you'll find it harder to account for the lag that is inherent at low rpms. Your ferrari is a different story, thats naturally aspirated, RWD, with a manual - its the ideal setup. Now once off the line the roughness isn't a problem, only the turbo lag is.

Also depends on the size of the turbos and what boost they are operating at - you need to consider all these things before you compare cars on the the engineering specs. But on the balance, no one actually cares about this stuff.


My question: Have you ever owned a car with ALL the following characteristics Together:
1. Turbocharged
2. AWD
3. Manual gearbox - either single clutch or double

You will notice that off the line response is sluggish, which if you understand the engineering behind turbos and an AWD drivetrain, you'll realize is impossible to overcome.

You can't go around comparing cars if you don't hold variables constant.


Anyways, this is more for fun - no one actually cares about any of this. In the end, its how you feel about the car. If you feel its good, then enjoy your toy with four wheels.

These are pricey toys, find one you like.

 

IT does off the line (from a standstill). You're correct that drivetrain has nothing to do with overall smoothness once you're rolling. There the turbos become the issue.

Thats why the 4S (old) and GTS are the ideal (personally).

 

Well call me stupid. Oh you did.

As an owner of all of the above (stupid, uneducated, lacking whatever it is you "have") I'm absolutely within my rights to compare the ability of this very expensive vehicle with other very expensive similarly specced / performing vehicles, whatever their configuration. As I said in my comment I hadn't owned a car with "all of the above" (the S8 / RS6 come closest with AWD and the 612 with a single-clutch "F1" gearbox) however nor did I expect the car to feel the way it does (Turbo or not), you don't have to fanboy-up the thread, you really should just realize that these are genuine complaints from genuine owners who have plenty of experience of other cars.

PS. I had thought that the PTT's two small variable geometry turbo's would have a negligible effect on the "before turbo" power which should be available from the engine, obviously you're tell me otherwise.

 

wow, long post Stacey and I can see your frustration. What would any of us do, you ask? I'd dump the car and call it a day. Get yourself a nice MB or BMW to your liking and give Porsche the finger.