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-   -   DIY: Intake Valve Cleaning without breaking the bank (https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/panamera/435978-diy-intake-valve-cleaning-without-breaking-bank.html)

NormalFellow 11-30-2019 10:55 AM

DIY: Intake Valve Cleaning without breaking the bank
 
Hey Guys, Wanted to share with you all, especially those with the V8's and Turbos. If you got at least 40k miles on your car and havent done this, I highly recommend it as a combined item when doing your oil change. Especially if you have a bit of rough idle or suffering from poor gas economy, this will make a significant difference. Not only are you cleaning your intake valves, but you are simultaneously cleaning your throttle body plate as well which is typically covered in some carbon build up. The product is extremely safe and easy to use.


Background Info: 2010 Porsche Panamera TT, w/ 107k miles, and valves were never treated EVER... With the failed Air oil seperator, after replacement, it was logical to tackle the carbon build up from the blow by of the oil that passes through the failed air oil seperator, which gets recirculated right back into the intake manifold. These valves and ports were BEYOND caked up and it blew my mind... Im going to have to follow up with another treatment to get it completely clean clean, but wanted to share with you the results.

Directions:

-remove two plastic pins that hold the y-pipe onto thethrottle boddy.
-slide the ypipe off of the throttle body just a tad, by tilting the top of the pipe off just slightly. You want the Map sensor to still detect flow while you are spraying downstream into the throttle body in short spurts @ 2500 RPM until the entire bottle is out....
-Let the chemicals then heat soak into the valves which makes the hard carbon build up into a paste like material
-after an hour, start up the car again... You may have a slight extended crank at first, but it will turn usually on second try
- key part to this is to take the car onto the highway and drive at a constant 70mph+ so that the high velocity of the air flowing through the ports will blow out the carbon build up for a good 15 minutes..
- when you get back home, let the car idle for another 5 minutes.. during this time, you will notice a significant improvement in idle and engine smoothness.
-Do a throttle reset/relearn, and you will have a very responsive throttle.
1. Switch the ignition on for 1 minute without starting the engine.
Do not actuate the accelerator pedal (for instance, make sure
that there is not a carpet pressing on the pedal).
2. Switch off ignition for at least 10 seconds.
The following conditions must also be observed, otherwise learning
is not possible:
-Vehicle is stationary
-
Battery positive voltage between 10 V and 16 V
-Engine temperature between 5 °C and 100 °C
-Intake air temperature between 10 °C and 100 °C


-Also to note, the full effects of the treatment is fully found after 7-8 ays of driving... The chemical PEA binds to the carbon and continuous to work for the next couple of days, further removing more gunk.



DogWood 11-30-2019 11:57 AM

Thanks Alex, what is the procedure for a throttle reset?

NormalFellow 11-30-2019 12:05 PM

Good Call Doug... Here is the directions and also, I re-edited the original post to include the directions for the throttle reset/relearn.

OEkun1 12-01-2019 08:09 PM

Hey Alex- is your video before or after your cleaning?

Also for the edification of others it would help to detail that the intake manifold should not be disassembled as in the video, but the car should be running while you remove the Y pipe and start spraying. It would also be helpful for anyone going to do this to have the Durametric handy as the car will likely throw codes during this process.

stealthn 12-02-2019 12:42 PM

How do you not foul the MAFs by introduction of this clearer?

Mod2Fame 12-03-2019 02:02 PM

I just ordered this, thanks I figured with 53k miles I should give it a try

NormalFellow 12-03-2019 02:51 PM

This video is after the process without even touching it. Yeah, good point... Ill do a more elaborate explanation and re-edit....

MAF sensors- there are two MAF sensors on that panamera. The first is on the y-pipe and the second one inside the intake manifold.. The only maf sensor to be careful of is the first maf sensor in the y-pipe. The MAF sensor in the intake manifold is designed slightly different and is able to get fouled up and not give any incorrect readings..

Let me reconfirm that this does not cause any check engine lights whatsoever....

DogWood 12-03-2019 03:08 PM

is the inner one a MAP sensor? big difference between the MAF and MAP

murci930 12-03-2019 04:09 PM

Waiting on my can to arrive tomorrow night, will be doing it this weekend. I am @124k so there should be a massive difference. OP pm'd me and gave me some great advice/pointers.

NormalFellow 12-03-2019 04:53 PM

You know what Doug? Im glad you mentioned that...

MAF: Mass Air Flow Sensor- the sensor on the Y-pipe(Sensitive Tip)
MAP: Manifold(intake) Absolute Pressure Sensor - on the backside of the intake manifold(Chemical resistant)


rgfinnegan3 12-03-2019 07:56 PM

I'll try the Throttle Reset, thanks! I'd love to "see" how good the valve cleaning is. Here's what I had done: https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ut-shells.html

ciaka 12-04-2019 07:24 AM

I assume the MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor is #8 on this pic. In the parts catalog it is referred to as 'Sensor, boost pressure', with Part Number 996 606 180 00.
If someone can confirm this is in fact MAF, it will clarify greatly.
Different from Cayenne turbo where there are 2 MAF sensors, in air tubes to the turbos.
Thank you.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...dc1ab77083.png



I added additional info for alternative method of spray, if you have way to clear CEL errors. Info in post # 24 HERE.

ciaka 12-04-2019 07:25 AM

Thank you for putting this together. Once you have the 'after' pics, it will be awesome to see them here for comparison. I do plan few treatments, maybe 3 or so, over time, to get the gunk out.

murci930 12-07-2019 08:53 PM

Just sprayed and got back from the quick highway drive... WHAT A DIFFERENCE,
Before I get into the car, couple of things to note for those, like myself, who are on the unexperienced end of mechanic spectrum.
1. The y-pipe will take a bit of work to get off, it took me about 10 minutes to wiggle it off.
2. This seems obvious but this is a little messy so be prepared for a little splatter coming from the can.
3. Also have towels or heat resistant gloves as the location of the y-pipe along with revving at 2500 rpm makes thing pretty hot, pretty quickly.

I will probably do this again after my next oil change to ensure it is clean.
The one comment I had was I noticed the TB was not opening, is that normal at 2500 rpm? I ran the car to proper operating temps prior to taking off the Y-Pipe as well, maybe that had something to do with it.

After I let it sit for an hour, got in the car, did a TB reset, then headed for the highway. WHAT A DIFFERENCE. The car, even in normal was quicker and the motor was so smooth. I hit 90 effortlessly (before it was effortless but now it's even better) but slowed down to 70/75 per Alex's instructions. It's about 30 degrees out so the air was cold. On the way back I pushed it a bit, and it felt quicker and much more confident. I also noticed induction noises were a little louder, sounding much more crisp and healthy. I know it is colder out so obviously they would be louder but this is not the first cold day year so I have heard the how the car sounds but then again it could just be in my head. After coming home and letting the car's idle, it is undoubtedly smoother, and very happy with the results! thanks to Alex for recommending!!!

NormalFellow 12-08-2019 10:19 AM

Murci, Man, I am so glad you had some faith and bit the bullet to do it. Great job man, and I greatly appreciate you confirming my findings... What you experienced is exactly what I experienced as well, to the T. I'd definitely add this in with my routing maintenance before each oil change to keep the valves and intake ports gunk free... Just wait till the end of the upcoming week.. The more you drive it, the better it gets.

Also, you are spot on with the "induction" sound being louder... Every car that ive done this too, you can hear a noticable difference in exhaust tone.... You can definitely tell there is a significantly more air volume coming in...

My butt dyno says this treatment prolly gives you(or get back) +10HP, what do you think? hahaha

murci930 12-08-2019 08:00 PM


Originally Posted by NormalFellow (Post 4814835)
Murci, Man, I am so glad you had some faith and bit the bullet to do it. Great job man, and I greatly appreciate you confirming my findings... What you experienced is exactly what I experienced as well, to the T. I'd definitely add this in with my routing maintenance before each oil change to keep the valves and intake ports gunk free... Just wait till the end of the upcoming week.. The more you drive it, the better it gets.

Also, you are spot on with the "induction" sound being louder... Every car that ive done this too, you can hear a noticable difference in exhaust tone.... You can definitely tell there is a significantly more air volume coming in...

My butt dyno says this treatment prolly gives you(or get back) +10HP, what do you think? hahaha

Haha, yes for sure at least a 10hp recovery. Honestly, the more I drive the car the smoother it gets. I assumed the panamera's just had a rougher idle as spark plugs and coils did not really improve it, but huge difference.
Looking forward to doing Alex's recommendation of motul 0-40 and ceratec next to quiet the engine down a bit (as my panni really doesn't burn oil) !

ciaka 12-15-2019 04:37 PM

Looks like it is normal for the throttle body not to be open at this rpm. I looked at other cars too and same thing. The throttle body stays closed, so you spray the cleaner at lower edge of the valve, and you will see the cleaner disappear under there. Short bursting until all liquid is gone out of the bottle.
I found it much easier to bend the straw in two places. ONE: About 2 inches from spray end of straw, bend up to about 90 degrees. TWO: About one inch from the edge of straw going into can. Bend down about 90 degrees.
You will result in having a straw that will point at the crack between throttle body valve and the TB casing. The other bend will make sure the can is pretty much upright.

For those who do not do mechanical stuff often, align dimples of lock pins on throttle body, with the fat parts of their channels (see my starter removal thread for pics). Once dimples alighed, you can use flat screwdriver to gently push pins up to remove. Then grab with both hands, and while you rotate side to side, you pull towards front of car. The TB will separate from intake (you will likely have couple hoses under the Y pipe, pop out of their retaining holders, but you can pop them back in once car is cold).
Once separated, you will have space to see the TB valve and put straw into space to spray (I covered the crack with rag to keep as much flow as I can and avoid errors). This bypasses MAF, sprays under TB valve too.

murci930 12-15-2019 05:00 PM


Originally Posted by ciaka (Post 4815774)
Looks like it is normal for the throttle body not to be open at this rpm. I looked at other cars too and same thing. The throttle body stays closed, so you spray the cleaner at lower edge of the valve, and you will see the cleaner disappear under there. Short bursting until all liquid is gone out of the bottle.
I found it much easier to bend the straw in two places. ONE: About 2 inches from spray end of straw, bend up to about 90 degrees. TWO: About one inch from the edge of straw going into can. Bend down about 90 degrees.
You will result in having a straw that will point at the crack between throttle body valve and the TB casing. The other bend will make sure the can is pretty much upright.

For those who do not do mechanical stuff often, align dimples of lock pins on throttle body, with the fat parts of their channels (see my starter removal thread for pics). Once dimples alighed, you can use flat screwdriver to gently push pins up to remove. Then grab with both hands, and while you rotate side to side, you pull towards front of car. The TB will separate from intake (you will likely have couple hoses under the Y pipe, pop out of their retaining holders, but you can pop them back in once car is cold).
Once separated, you will have space to see the TB valve and put straw into space to spray (I covered the crack with rag to keep as much flow as I can and avoid errors). This bypasses MAF, sprays under TB valve too.

Did you get some smoke on startup after the hour heat soak? I did when I did it on mine and my dad's jaguar, just wanted to make sure it was normal.

Also I know you mentioned in the other thread spraying the turbo intakes (not the right term), did you end up doing it? curious to see if you did and the effects.

After a week, I can undoubtedly say my car idles smoother, and is peppier. Will do this once more before my next oil change to ensure they are clean.

Next up, engine flush before oil change with motul and Cerratec, all recommended by Alex!

ciaka 12-15-2019 06:56 PM

Did not notice any smoke but I was not looking for it. I am sure if deposits get broken down, there would be smoke so I am sure smoke would be normal.
I was not the one who sprayed into turbo intakes...it was Normalfellow. I did not spray in there, you have to be under car to be doing that.
Good job. Take care of the car and it will take care of you.




Originally Posted by murci930 (Post 4815776)
Did you get some smoke on startup after the hour heat soak? I did when I did it on mine and my dad's jaguar, just wanted to make sure it was normal.

Also I know you mentioned in the other thread spraying the turbo intakes (not the right term), did you end up doing it? curious to see if you did and the effects.

After a week, I can undoubtedly say my car idles smoother, and is peppier. Will do this once more before my next oil change to ensure they are clean.

Next up, engine flush before oil change with motul and Cerratec, all recommended by Alex!


NormalFellow 12-17-2019 10:40 AM

Ciaka! Thank you for the extra instructions... Also, how was your experience? Had a Honda civic with a cel and this spray actually cured it, haha.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...e7e97fb709.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...722f326574.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...ce42fb0af2.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...2124cdb6e4.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...d6dbb879d9.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...1776febb1d.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...e88766e8b0.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...fffe50fa3d.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...c744634730.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...8ae0042fd4.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...0e644fcf8b.jpg


So here's a little update.... After doing this treatment, I had to pull off the intake manifold anyways and went to town with manual cleaning. I was going to pull out the walnut blaster, but it was not necessary. I got another bottle of the CRC valve cleaner and used it to soak th valves in the solution overnight. Then had a drill with nylon brush to scrub off the residual bulk of the carbon... A second treatment of the intake valve cleaner would have done the same thing... here are a few before and after pics...

ciaka 12-18-2019 03:17 PM

what a difference that is.
I wonder if I do this a couple times in a row, if will clean as well.

Kerch 01-28-2020 04:39 PM

This looks like a great idea.

I just bought a 2014 Turbo with 39k miles on it and why not try this. I do notice at idle the RPM bounces around a bit (not huge but some) and maybe intake value cleaning would be useful. I feel like the throttle could be a bit better on this car, as I drove other Pan turbos and the all felt a bit different in throttle response.

My engine is obviously different than the writeup/thread and have not found engine diagrams yet that shows MAS, etc. My MAS looks to be more metal and not sure how I would open it up to spray into. I don't want to foul any sensors by doing this.

Anyone try this on a 2014 turbo yet or suggestions?


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...81237fb28.jpeg



ciaka 01-28-2020 09:24 PM

Your mass airflow sensor (called MAF) should be located in exact same spot as other 2010-2014 Panamera turbo cars. It is located as part #8 on diagram I attached - post 12 of this thread HERE.
To disconnect, remove the 2 pins holding the intake to throttle body (do not keep twisting or you will break the little lock tabs, if you feel resistance, twist in opposite direction to align dimples, then pull straight out.
Then, gently using both hands, grab y intake and pull off (some hosed under it will pop out of placement so if you want to see what goes where after, look under y pipe first, take a pic, then pull off.
Then you will have way to insert straw in front of the butterfly (my next post below will have update o how I did it next). Straight forward. I found the rpm needle shake pretty much went away after single treatment.





Originally Posted by Kerch (Post 4821684)
This looks like a great idea.
I just bought a 2014 Turbo with 39k miles on it and why not try this. I do notice at idle the RPM bounces around a bit (not huge but some) and maybe intake value cleaning would be useful. I feel like the throttle could be a bit better on this car, as I drove other Pan turbos and the all felt a bit different in throttle response.
My engine is obviously different than the writeup/thread and have not found engine diagrams yet that shows MAS, etc. My MAS looks to be more metal and not sure how I would open it up to spray into. I don't want to foul any sensors by doing this.
Anyone try this on a 2014 turbo yet or suggestions?



ciaka 01-28-2020 09:36 PM

I made 2nd treatment using this spray, and used different method which I believe does better job cleaning.
Only drawback of this method is that you will throw a code, so you should have diagnostic tool to clear the code before you go ahead and use the method.

My new method:
- warm up car to normal operating temperature
- Remove lock pins by lining up lock tabs, pulling pins straight up, out
- pull y pipe off the throttle body (hoses underneath will dislodge so be aware how things wire up when you put things back together after all done and cool).
- using fingers or long plastic tool, push on top part of throttle body butterfly valve (top half pushed into the intake towards driver compartment)
- disconnect straw from the spray bottle
- while pushing on valve gently to make a small opening at top, between valve and throttle body wall, insert the end of straw past the butterfly valve so when you sprayt, the spray goes past the valve.
- attach the spray bottle to straw (helps to make a 90 degree bend in straw, about 2 inches away from outer end of it), and make sure the bottle is upside down
- increase rpms in car to about 2k (I used a thick pipe against seat, used seat adjust to make it press on throttle to about 2k rpm
- place cloth of some sort around the space between y pipe and throttle body (plug up any space opened due to separation), helps to keep pressure as much as possible
- use short bursts to spray in contents of spray bottle into car (will take you about 5 minutes or so to spray it all in)
- after contents sprayed out, remove rpm mechanism, let idle for few seconds, then press throttle to about 3k rpm few times, then let idle for a minute
- turn car off
- reassemble y pipe to put all things back into place (except hoses under y pipe - do that after engine is cooled down)
- use diagnostic software to clear all errors (this will turn off your CEL that gets thrown due to throttle body valve open at start)
- one hour later, take car for highway drive about 20 minutes


I noticed a strong smell when doing this. This was the smell of the gunk being worked on by sprayed in chemicals.
I dont know if mpg improved, waiting for about 1500 miles to compare with pre treatment numbers.
Good luck.

Kerch 01-29-2020 06:54 AM


Originally Posted by ciaka (Post 4821748)
Your mass airflow sensor (called MAF) should be located in exact same spot as other 2010-2014 Panamera turbo cars. It is located as part #8 on diagram I attached - post 12 of this thread HERE.
To disconnect, remove the 2 pins holding the intake to throttle body (do not keep twisting or you will break the little lock tabs, if you feel resistance, twist in opposite direction to align dimples, then pull straight out.

Thanks so much for your information! I feel really stupid for asking this, I am more mechanically inclined than it appears, but I am having a tough time understanding where y-pipe/intake to throttle body is and these 2 pins. Maybe I a bit more visual. Anyway you could help me find where this is a bit more? I am sure it is dumb question once I understand.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...49bd2a803.jpeg

ciaka 01-29-2020 07:22 AM

Look at image I added in post #12 of this thread.
the pins are #10, the y pipe us #6 on the image.
pins have tabs at one end. To remove you must align those tabs with openings that will allow them through when you pull up. If you dont align you will break tabs off and pins will vibrate out of place over time.
under y pipe there are vacuum hoses attached to line guides that secure them. When you pull off the y pipe, those hoses will dislodge. Make sure how it all looks below y pipe so you can put it all back same way, after car done

Stringbag 01-29-2020 11:25 AM

This might help put it all into place for you.

jzchen 03-06-2020 07:00 AM

This is the CRC instructions I just found last night:


I found a Porsche product/part # but seems discontinued: 000 043 206 89, to be mixed with fuel, the images I could find of it show it's a 100 mL can....

stealthn 03-06-2020 07:33 AM


Originally Posted by jzchen (Post 4827006)
This is the CRC instructions I just found last night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcVDZAauO88

I found a Porsche product/part # but seems discontinued: 000 043 206 89, to be mixed with fuel, the images I could find of it show it's a 100 mL can....


Mixing with fuel doesn't help a direct injection engine as the fuel is added below the valve, this is why they coke up (no fuel to clean the valve)

jzchen 03-06-2020 07:46 AM


Originally Posted by stealthn (Post 4827010)
Mixing with fuel doesn't help a direct injection engine as the fuel is added below the valve, this is why they coke up (no fuel to clean the valve)

Thank you.

The owners manual seems to imply it solves the problem, but the BASF pages I could find on it does not show intake valve cleaning on a direct injection motor, they stealthily put a picture of a port injected motor!

I’m noticing a slightly rough idle so may need to do this with the CRC product as I bought two as instructed....

ciaka 03-06-2020 07:47 AM

YES, mixing anything with fuel wont help you. Why? Because of how fuel flows into cylinders.
In direct fuel injected cars (like Panamera), fuel does not flow over the valves, which would help clean them, and keep them clean.
In direct fuel injected cars fuel is injected into the cylinders below the valves, never touches the top of the valves.

In non DFI cars, fuel is injected into cylinder, from fuel injector, onto top of the valve, past it, into cylinder. Since fuel flows over the valve, the chemicals you put into gas help clean valve tops.




Originally Posted by stealthn (Post 4827010)
Mixing with fuel doesn't help a direct injection engine as the fuel is added below the valve, this is why they coke up (no fuel to clean the valve)


DogWood 03-06-2020 09:34 AM

fuel additives will help with build up in the cylinder, but wont do anything for the buildup on the back of the valves as the others have noted.

jzchen 04-03-2020 07:05 PM

Just did a slightly modified intake valve cleaning using the CRC Intake Valve Cleaner.

I did not have a second person to rev the engine to 2000 RPM. First time I tried spraying I held the button too long and the engine immediately stalled. Not comfortable driving the car I took another one to go on an errand, (took my dog to the veterinary oncologist). So essentially I let it soak like with what little I sprayed in for a few hours. When I got back I started it up again and it was idling somewhat poorly. I drove around for 20 mins.

I tried again with short bursts. This seemed to work so I kept at it until the can was empty. I did most of the can with the can upside down as the instructions note not to have it sideways for some reason, which is how I had it maybe 1/3 of the can. After I felt the can was empty I went and turned off the engine. I reconnected the Y pipe to the intake manifold and tightened it down. I waited 1 hour and drove it around town in sport plus mode. This keeps the engine RPMs higher than even driving around on the freeways in comfort mode. I did this for 20 minutes. When I started off there was engine roughness, and after about a block and a half I heard some slight metal clanking, which then went away about a 1/4 block later.

Note, when I yanked the Y pipe no check engine light! I'm going to have to update the other thread, my new suspect is the Pennzoil Platinum Euro, which lost it's A40 approval rating 11/19...

jzchen 06-22-2020 04:54 PM

Anyone know how to turn over the engine so each cylinder gets to TDC for manual cleaning please? Do I have to go underneath? Thanks!

shrike071 06-23-2020 04:53 AM


Originally Posted by jzchen (Post 4841277)
Anyone know how to turn over the engine so each cylinder gets to TDC for manual cleaning please? Do I have to go underneath? Thanks!

Get a socket that fits the center of the balancer on the crankshaft. Rotate the engine.

jzchen 06-24-2020 06:16 PM

So I realized spraying the intake valve cleaner into those ports that two cylinders are open at a time. The 6 remaining cleaner pooled around the closed valve. I suctioned out most of the fluid pooled in those 6, but I have cleaner in the two cylinders. I guess continue to put car back together...

Anyone else who loses the clip my parts guy at DTLA was really sharp and found the connectors. I transfered the clip over:. 443-906-232

OEkun1 07-05-2020 07:48 AM

Finally got to performing this yesterday...got the whole bottle in the car...it ran rough for a bit then I let it soak for a couple of hours. Upon starting the car...smoke poured out the rear, clearly this was doing its job...took the car on a nice 15 minute drive and got the speeds well above 70mph...maybe a little higher :). But all in all, I definitely feel better throttle responsiveness. I'm impressed, the bottle did say do this every 10K miles which may not be a bad idea.

Thanks to all who shared their experiences. I do have the Check Engine light...and will likely clear with the Durametric.

Username 06-22-2022 01:03 PM

Can the old carbon residue somehow mix with the engine oil with this procedure? aka is it best to do this just before an oil change? Or this can be done at any time with no issues?

jzchen 06-22-2022 01:16 PM

I was worried about clogging the catalytic converter or fouling the downstream O2 sensor(s). Car fired up just fine. I should go back in and do the two valves that were open to the cylinders but haven't...


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