A Stage 4GT Lunch Cruise- Still Puzzled
 

Just met up with Dave (996TTR) and decided to test some passes with our cars during the lunch hour.

Dave: Seal Gray Stage 4GT, Zero Clearance Turbos running Pump Gas, Stock Exhaust.

Me: My GT2 Stage4GT, Garret Turbos, Pump Gas, Fabspeed Quiet.

First, I want to clarify something. When I ran last time with stephen, I really didn't monitor the boost guage that much. When I glanced at it, I saw 1.0, 1.1. Today I made an effort to. My car, in 3rd was steady at 1.0, then 1.1 and when shifted to 4th, it maintained steady 1.4. So I doubt there was a boost leak.

Both Dave and I experienced a dead zone in 4th gear and then a tad bit of surge there after, then ready for upshift to 5th. Dave thinks it might be normal, and related to the variocam.

Dave and I launched bottom of 3rd and into the top of 4th, and aside from a tad bit of traction issues, we were both neck and neck. We did this about 4 times, and once into 5th. - Same Results....identical performance.

Curious to know why his Stage 4GT had the Zero Clearance, and mine with the moddified Garrets, and more so curious to kindly ask the tuners where the difference is supposed to be.

I also drove Dave's car, and to be honest, it felt the same as Stephen's Upsolute performance.

Please Please tell me that there is a bad batch of programming that went out, and that you'd fix the issues. The difference of a retail of $23,000 and $500 needs to be justified.

As a former customer of Stephen at Imagine and Todd's, I know that they are good people with good intentions, and do great work. Therefore, do not take this post as something to defend.

Just help us understand what to do, when we're all puzzled.

OR ......... Upsolute = Stage 4 GT performance??? If so, than that is the most underrated chip, and the best bang for the buck.


-Shank

Re: A Stage 4GT Lunch Cruise- Still Puzzled
 

I am curious to know the same. In essense, it also proves Upsolute=Stage2=Stage4gt in real world performance? I mean if Shank and I are neck in neck, where is the extra 150hp over my car and his car is substantially lighter than mine. My follow-up is also not intended to flame or aggrevate anyone, I simply would like to know why this "dyno'd" hp and torque does not translate to any appreciable gain on the steet?

Lou

Shank,

I must say that although it was fun to run on the highway, I am now equally depressed and confused.

If the Upsolute car with stock K16 turbos is running equal to your car(and mine) then there is definitely some questions that need to be answered.

I am also wondering why you are running the Garrett turbos? I was told the Zero Clearance were better.

I will ask Stephen at Imagine.

Re: A Stage 4GT Lunch Cruise- Still Puzzled
 

I am curious to know the same. In essense, it also proves Upsolute=Stage2=Stage4gt in real world performance? I mean if Shank and I are neck in neck, where is the extra 150hp over my car and his car is substantially lighter than mine. My follow-up is also not intended to flame or aggrevate anyone, I simply would like to know why this "dyno'd" hp and torque does not translate to any appreciable gain on the steet?

Lou

Lou,

Nothing against you or your car, but if I was to run your car on the highway and not be able to pull 2 car lenghts from 60-120MPH, I would be pissed.

Your car is supposed to be 120 horsepower less then mine. That should equal better acceleration.

I am going back to my corner to suck my thumb.

Dave, no offense taken buddy, I would be pissed as well. I do not know if you saw my previous post on our mini, mini meet Sunday, but all our cars were very comparable. We lined up and went head to head at least 4 times each. None of the Porsche's, Shank's stage 4gt GT2, my Stage 2 Turbo, or Stephen's Upsolute Turbo pulled on the other. As I said before, the cars were even with the huge edge going to Stephen becuase he paid $500 for the chip and the car he bought already had an exhaust. Total out of pocket: $500.00 Not a bad deal for him. Kudos. Looks like I ought to be sucking my thumb as well. :mad:

Lou

Lou,

I do not want to even mention how much money is in my car. I wish we had cliffs here like they do in California. That way I could just drive my car off the edge of a cliff if the Upsolute car kept up with me.

Well at least Shanks and my car look good going down the highway.

Oh my god am I watching this thread! Lot's of splainen Lucy!

Sounds like something is wrong. I have zero clearance and running stage 4 software. I have raced Stage 3's and other modified cars and they do not stand a chance especially from third grear. Off the line because of the gearing in the Turbos First and second will be very close, also depends who gets the jump. Third is usually where you will see the difference.

To be honest, I was hoping that Shank's car was simply losing traction and that on a warmer day things would be different, which I am sure they will. However, Dave has a turbo which should have the same traction as my car.

Lou

Duane,

Is it a huge difference? I had been contemplating upgrading from my stage 2 to stage 4, but am very skeptical to say the least in light of recent events.

Lou

Lou

Have you run against bone stock tt's since you said you were dead even with Upsolute.

Duane,

We are not crazy. The cars run side by side. Not even a quarter car length difference. I have the Zero Clearance turbos too and am running 1.4 boost.

Lou,

I have got some cheap Stage 4GTR software for sale. Incredible performance. Don't pay any attention to my previous post. I was only running 1/4 throttle against Shank.

It's all about how well you remove the wrapper off the sucker.

I think we need to go out drinking.

hilarious hilarious hilarious

Sorry, don't mean to laugh.

Lou

Is the assumption, that all drivers possess equal driving skill, correct? Is it possible that Upsolute Stephen possesses the greatest driving skill?

I am just trying to make sense of the results.

Then again, Ryan has driven both a 4GT and an Upsolute and claims that both cars accelerate similarly.

Do any of you have access to a Gtech? You can have the same driver drive each car with the Gtech installed.

Here is a good example. Right now I am running Stage 4 GTR software Thanks to Todd at EVO. However upon installing this we lost about 30 HP the wheels. IMO the Zero Clearance cannot flow enough air for an agressive program like the GTR. MY AFR's were 10.7 and 10.9. Upon driving the car it was noticably slower. The biggest difference was it felt way down on torque.

Now to the point.

Orli930 just had a stage 4 installed.

We raced twice from third gear both times my car pulled away. Not by much but did pull away by about three car lengths.

My thoughts are you guys both need to give some time for the ecu to adapt. Stage 4 when I had it installed about a year ago really took about 1500 miles to come alive.

The GTech is the perfect idea. I've been toying with getting one myself.

Since the cars were pretty even, that would mean that stephen and I have this superior driving skill. I definately do not possesses such skills and actually altogether missed an upshift once when stephen and I took off.:D Also, there was really only one upshift of significance, which was from 3rd to 4th. We did race into 5th, but barely, and by then we were braking. The amount of time in third should have put one car ahead of the other, and it didn't. Good question though, I am trying to find an answer myself. Doesn't make any sense. Where are all the tuners? There has to be some explanation. Why does 150 extra hp not = increased speed? In my case, why speed wise does a $500 upsolute chip = a $3100 giac chip with stage 2 programming? Why does a $500 upsolute chip = a stage 2 chip($3100) = a stage 4GT(???) on the street? Please let me know, there must be an answer. Not trying to flame or discredit, I just want to know the reasoning.

Lou

Lou

Guys I'm not sure what the problem is but I've had both just the upsolute and then Stephen's GIAC stuff and there's just a huge difference for me?

For example my mph used to 121-123 with upsolute and now I'm trapping 127.8. In the 1/8th I was at 94mph and now I'm at 101mph- that's a HUGE difference. Strange... maybe I would disconnect the battery and then try.

Couple of things here. Some might not make any difference until some time is passed and the dust has settled. David has the sheets and can post his jpgs if he wants. His car made on open exhaust with cats in place 565RWHP. The exhaust is changed and restricting, but still should be within target to blow a lower level car away. The weather is playing a huge roll and the programming of the Upsolute chip. The turbos are cranked on the K16s and can and will make big spikes of power in the cold weather. The normal ambient temperature will allow things to become soaked very fast when the turbo is over spinning. In most cases a turbo being over spun will not relate to more HP, rather it will reduce it because of the amount of friction and heat being created. The turbo over spinning in 20 degree weather is not overheating like it would when it is say 70. The other key factor is the program is running leaner with the colder air and grouped with an over spinning turbo will simply make some very serious TQ. The difference becomes, can this level be sustained for very long. Not really. The car is getting every shot it can to maximize the 500.00 chip. I do believe that the car should still get beat, but if the programming is set to the ragged edge on one and is set nominal for all conditions with a huge safety margin then the out come will be the one that can run more efficient because of elements would yield a like result. This is the only Logic reason and the differences to other that have run similar cars, such as Duane. I have spent so much time on the dyno with so many TTs and these cars made big power. Fred's also proved that to the public on the Mustang Dyno at the shootout. While all of this can be proven until the temps warm up, it is about efficiency and heat. I feel like I am in the twilight zone.

Everyone that has ridden in my car has said the same thing about the two:

1)Upsolute- induced some surge/lag and it seemed to be inconsistent in different weather. In the summer it just seemed to have lost so much but when I switched to the GIAC stuff it certainly pulled stronger in warmer weather. I had a few CELs.
2)GIAC- great boost maps and consistently fast. Smokes my tires and I can keep up with my friends cars that used to beat me like C5s with blowers and so on...

I've had both so that's just my opinion. I've never been happier with my car and having driven it a lot this past week (first time really since the shoot out) it's just a frickin' animal. There's no way my car with the upsolute in it could keep up. I've got the timeslips to prove that...

Ryan,
Call me...I think I am going to catch a plane up there and see what is going on.

Stephan or Todd:

I am still surprised that the Upsolute should be that close to the stage 2. Stage 4+ ... no way. But, I see that you beilieve there is a problem with Shank AND 996ttr.

Do you have hard data on the Upsolute (have you evaluated their programming yourself) that they are "pushing the envelope"? I would like to see it, or tell me, what are they pushing? AFR's, turbo temps (intake charge), what?

No attack, just straight questions that I think a lot of people would like to know.

Guys,

I just ran my car over to the dyno and met Shank there. He will post the sheets. I know I am losing some power due to the fact that I have a EVO stock modified muffler. I will have a Europipe in a few days. It should perk up some then. The real issue is why Shanks car cannot pull away from a Stage II/Imagineauto car(LSM's). Imagineauto and EVO are great companies and will help us get to the bottom of this.

I'm sure it's some gremlin... These cars are fussy as hell thanks to those ECUs etc... I'm sure Stephen will sort it out.

can you give exact details on this "run" where you were comparing the cars? Was it a straight line on a street? Road course? 1/4 mile?

Isn't it possible that those with the bigger hp cars just held back slightly because of the setup of the "run"?

-Steve

Dyno sheets of todays run at the Porsche Exchange - Dave/996TTR's Stage4GT:

https://www.6speedonline.com/dyno/dyno1.jpg

https://www.6speedonline.com/dyno/dyno2.jpg

https://www.6speedonline.com/dyno/dyno3.jpg

https://www.6speedonline.com/dyno/dyno4.jpg

https://www.6speedonline.com/dyno/dyno5.jpg

The numbers of the stock GT2 and EVO Stage 2 GT2 are not related to my GT2. These were other customers cars.

Ryan

I have spoken to Stephen at Imagine. This is what we're gonna do.

Next tuesday or wednesday (Lou, StephenTi, My GT2 (throwing in the sl600renntech too :)) will be going to the dyno at the Porsche Exchange. Prior to that, I am going to change my headers to the stock ones, honed and coated. Just want to rule out that "header eats torque" theory.

Once we get a result of Stephen's Upsolute, Todd and Stephen agreed to fly up and resolve the problem and dyno tune it. We are all puzzled. StephenTi - Need your help here, and if you can shoot down for the Dyno run.

Thanks
Shank

:cool: :cool:

Ryan and David,

If you guys were on a DynoJet AWD Dyno you can NOT dyno the AWD car on that. The system is not coupled and is driven with clutches rather than mechanically linked like the Mustang. Unhook the front shaft before dynoing again. The system runs some very odd loads to the front wheels. Aside from the traditional issue of popping a dif.

Check out my sig...i have my dyno sheet posted as well as the video.

At WOT...you can see the AFRs are nice and rich between 11.8-12.3.

I also have the Upsolute and Fabspeed Quite and when I dynoed my car at Orbit Racing it had 460rwhp.

Roger also mentioned that it peaked at 490rwhp but for some reason said I should go by the 460 number?

One thing I can say is that the "cold" weather here in SFLA really improves the car. On the drive back from Orlando the car seemed to have more power than normal.

I regret not racing with some of the Stage IV's from the trip.

Maybe next time....

LOL... good one. Look forward to meeting you sometime soon! We'll have to go cruising with Shank and LSM.

While driving skills may have a slight influence on the results at best, I'd imagine the difference between an average and good driver to be minimal, especially considering the ~130whp advantage of the Stage 4.

I've learned to bang gears with efficiency and accuracy due to years of driving big-turbo'd imports (ex. 700hp Single Turbo Supra, 460hp Turbo Miata, etc), but then again, so has Shank.

We'll see what the dyno session yields. I think too often, people focus too much on peak horsepower and not enough on the area under the torque (hp) curve.

As for speculations on quality of Upsolute programming vs. giac, I'd suggest that we stop speculating altogether. It seems like everytime someone has a positive experience with Upsolute, other people would bring into question the quality of the programming. What is this doubt based on... merely the price?

I believe that GIAC has proven their ability to tune cars, but I also think Upsolute has done so as well. I think it is ridiculous that people make excuses as to why Upsolute is as fast as it is... weather, air temp, etc. It's one thing to introduce possibilities as to different conditions, but to suggest Upsolute is making it's power due to circumstances while giac is the "real deal" is unfounded.

Stephen
'01 Turbo Ti Upsolute

I like to see that level of support from the GIAC guys. I will allow them the full time they need to evaluate as their reputations and credibility are high.

I still want an explanation, as StephanTi is alluding to, as to what exactly is "wrong" witth the Upsolute approach.

ShankGT2.... just a thought, I think you should dyno your car with exactly the same configuration its in right now. That is, given that you know right now what its doing on the street performance-wise - you shoudn't now change something before dynoing.... you should at least dyno once in its current configuration, and then change out the header. It just has the potential to introduce another level of speculation...

just my $.02...

-d

I agree with delobbo. Shank, if you change your car, you may end up being one step farther from the answer, rather than closer.

I have been following the thread closely and until now, people have stated if you want just a 100hp or so and no more go upsolute, BUT if you want more than that GIAC is the way to go. They also have a stock setting which is nice. My questions are: 1)how does upsolute do what they are doing? are upsolute cars running 1.2 bar more/less. Is the boost a big factor? and how do the GIAC vs Upsolute compare in regular street driving? These are genuine questions and not meant to ruffle any feathers. I am pretty practical and want to know basically which is the better of the 2 to go with for good street cruising, canyon runs and engaging the detroit muscle with something to prove. Can any give me insight into this who'se had experience with either system. Sharkster, I really appreciate your comments previously because I can see how in a more formal race environment the GIAC works really well for you and I've noted your experiences with the vette's. Anyone else with thoughts on this one?

Shank,

The dyno idea sounds good.

Stephen,

I will have my driveshaft removed and put a Europipe muffler on for the next run.

Thanks

996TTR,

I'm guessing you are referring to removing the driveshaft for the dyno run.

For our cars, disconnecting the driveshaft for the road really wouldn't benefit the car much in terms of accelearation. The AWD weight is still there, and the parasitic loss is minimal with the driveshaft attached anyways due to the nature of the AWD's rear-biased torque split.

Stephen