Has anyone upgraded their intermediate shaft?

[deputydog95]

I ran across this last night: http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html Thoughts? I'm not sure if it's worth doing or not. Good to know that they can possibly get your engine running again if it goes south. Is it worth messing to be proactive. I'm at around 40k miles at this point (knock on wood). I've got RMS again, so I was thinking "while they are in there". I just don't want to mess with it if it's not broken, you know what I mean? Let me know what you guys think.

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[deckman]

Hi DD, there are a bunch of discussions about this over on Rennlist.

[Porsche Tech]

Originally Posted by deputydog95

I ran across this last night:

http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html


Thoughts?

I'm not sure if it's worth doing or not. Good to know that they can possibly get your engine running again if it goes south.

Is it worth messing to be proactive. I'm at around 40k miles at this point (knock on wood). I've got RMS again, so I was thinking "while they are in there".

I just don't want to mess with it if it's not broken, you know what I mean?

Let me know what you guys think.

This is an interesting topic that you've brought up-We've seen the instances of IMS bearing failure increase greatly in recent history.

Over the last couple of months, we've corresponded with Charles at LN regarding this and other Boxster/996 engine repair/upgrade related issues. I think that their IMS bearing fix is ground breaking. Tony Callas at Callas Rennsport has used their IMS bearing repair kit/special removal tool with positive results (though he did say EVEN with LN's specially supplied tool, the IMS bearing(s) came out of the case VERY hard and there was some wory of damage to the case as the feet of the tool have a small foot print and pre-load against the back of the case. Ultimately it was successfull and no damage)

LN is also producing chain guide rails of superior quality to the factory plastic ones and they have developed the only system that we know of for replacing the factory "Pre-forms" which are your cyl liners. A HUGE plus is that it will be possible to install preforms of greater diameter with custom fitted forged pistons (read:big bore kit**) We have a house 2003 996C4S with a failed IMS bearing problem and in the coming month will be performing a complete tear down and rebuild with LN's upgrades. We may go forward with the 3.8 litre preforms and pistons as well.

We will be documenting the job with pics. If anyone is interested we would be happy to start a thread with pics of the engine build with upgrades.

[deputydog95]

I"d like to hear more about that for sure. I think I'm going to leave mine be for now. I'll have them replace the IMS seal and the RMS, and call it a day.

[01vdpsc]

If you saw the difference between the stock part and the LN part you would do it. Also this is done before it breaks. If yours
breaks its time for a new engine not a repair.

[Dharn55]

If yu have the flywheel off at least do the test of the bearing. Take off the flange, remove the intermediate chain tensioners, and see if there is any play in the bearing. If there is then defintely do the upgrade. Also, remove the outer seal on the stock bearing to alalow additional lubrication. This is all covered on the LN Engineering website and on Flat 6. When I had my engine out last spring the dual row bearing upgrade had not been finalized, they were still working on the tools for removal. Otherwise I think I would have done it, cheap insurance for only $595 plus an hour or so to install. I did remove the flange, test the bearing (no noticable play), removed the seal, and installed the updated flange available from Porsche.

Still thinking of doing the upgrade.

[John Romano]

I read the article referenced above. It sounded like something I would consider when I changed my clutch. I've done a whole bunch of work to my P cars myself over the years and felt pretty confident about doing the IMS retrofit while I had the car apart doing the clutch. That is until I read this part:

"Prior to removing the IMS hub flange, it's best to lock the engine at TDC using the Porsche lock tool, pull the cam plugs and lock the cams, and then remove the three chain tensioners from the engine......... Extra time may be required to re-time the camshafts, if timing does jump during retrofit kit installation. If the cams have to be retimed, it's also advisable to have the variocam tensioner pads and chains replaced on pre-MY03 engines [mine is an 02!], as they are a wear item and typically are very badly worn with little miles on the engine. It is also good practice to check all the lifters, as many will be collapsed or otherwise needing replacing."

This is kind of annoying because my car has 60,000 mi and the $595 is really cheap insurance to add at this point especially since I'm going to be in there anyway doing the clutch, and taking a look at the RMS (so far so good, but since I'm in there I might as well just change it). If I were to decide to do the RMS retrofit, the horror instilled in me by the above referenced passage would probably, begrudgingly, have me hand the job over to a tech - that cam timing tool alone is expensive! not to mention I don't have the other P tools required to lock the the motor a TDC, lock the cams, pull the lifters, and do all the adjustments. It would be between 8.5 and 10.5 hours to R&R the clutch and flywheel. How many hours to do the IMS retrofit? I'm sure not that many techs have done this retrofit yet so, chances are whomever does this retrofit will have as much experience as I do. So I'm wondering, how many hours could the retrofit add to the clutch/flywheel R&R? How many more to retime the cams if necessary, and all the other related R&R and adjustments mentioned?

Geesh... My Saturday afternoon $500 clutch job just turned into at least a $3,000 - $5,000 commitment. How much is a new motor? 10 grand? At least I can install that myself. And it will have zero miles on it with all the internal upgrades. So, I'm replacing the clutch and waiting for the IMS to break. Then I'll buy a new motor.

[deputydog95]

You make a good argument John.

[John Romano]

Originally Posted by deputydog95

You make a good argument John.

I guess it also depends on if you plan on keeping the car for a long time. I am, so a new motor is something I knew I would consider at some point.

Maybe an extended warrantee is the answer? Those are, what? $2,500? I'd wonder if you're SC might make a difference in an extended warrantee, or if they would even cover your car. An SC voids a factory warrantee, right?


Call me crazy, but the thought of a new motor is not bad news to me.

[deputydog95]

I'm sure an aftermarket warranty would be a problem with the supercharger. Either that, or the premium would be a small fortune and would not make sense on a cost benefit analysis.

I'm not sure how long I'll keep this car. I bought it used, but did some put some money in it. Being how soft the market for these cars is right now, it would almost make sense to just keep it and buy something else. Eyeballing 04 Gallardos as of late

Honestly, it would suck out loud if the motor did go. However... It seems like these engines have been around long enough where the aftermarket has the ability to repair and rebuild them.

At that point, a 3.8 with lowered compression and 10psi would be in order

[John Romano]

"At that point, a 3.8 with lowered compression and 10psi would be in order "

See? Always better to light a candle than curse the darkness.

[Dharn55]

Locking the motor at TDC is no big deal. Sure Porsche makes a special tool for this but you don't need it. I used a rod the size of the opening in the pully and it works fine. The only reason to pull a cam plug is to make sure you have the engine set at TDC on cylinder 1, and you need to see the end of the intake cam on 1-3. The new plug is about $8 and it is a 5 minute job. You do need to take out the cam chain tensioners , but that is to take the pressure off the inteditate shaft on the flywheel side where the bearing is. The chance of it loosing the timing is about nil. I had my cams off without loosing the timing, and did not have the special tools. And you only need to take the cams off if you really want to replace the tensioner pads (mine were pretty badly worn at 50,000 miles but lots of engine go with the wear to 100,000+ miles) or check/replace lifters. I fabricated one hold down tool and marked the chains, gears, etc. so I did not need the special tools. Now if you are going to replace chains or tear the entine all the way down you would need some of the special tools.

The wear of the pads or the problems with lifters really have nothing to do with the IMS bearing, most bearing replacements are done with only the trans being dropped.

The reality is that you can do the IMS bearing retrofit with little worry about any of this.

[deputydog95]

So how much labor (hours) would be typically involved in the retrofit (with the dealer doing it)?

My concern is that it seems like such a sensitive area, that going in there and messing with stuff could cause a problem where there wasn't one.

[01vdpsc]

My dealer charged me 1400.00 to replace the RMS with an upgrade I provided from suncoast and the new LN engineering parts including, IMS bearing kit, low temp thermostat,spin on filter adapter this included oil change and topping off the coolant from the thermostat change. A new engine from Porsche doesn't seem that desirable to me. You get a remanufactured core return which may include resleeved welded block and the same crap IMS

[John Romano]

Originally Posted by 01vdpsc

My dealer charged me 1400.00 to replace the RMS with an upgrade I provided from suncoast and the new LN engineering parts including, IMS bearing kit, low temp thermostat,spin on filter adapter this included oil change and topping off the coolant from the thermostat change. A new engine from Porsche doesn't seem that desirable to me. You get a remanufactured core return which may include resleeved welded block and the same crap IMS

I've read that replacement motors have all the latest upgrades - including IMS bearings.