Porsche deliberately used knackered GTR for Nurburgring comparison
#1
09-10-2009, 04:21 AM
Porsche deliberately used knackered GTR for Nurburgring comparison
See below.
http://minkara.carview.co.jp/userid/...blog/10609494/
Video in Japanese.
Short summary:
P's is probably telling the truth about the time they achieved....
P's not saying anything about maintenance, or what kind of state the GT-R was in.
P's actual testers knew they needed maintenance, the top brass ???
Long summary:
In September at Nurburgring, a certain German Sports car maker came to Nissan's garage with a grey import Nissan GT-R bought from Universal Nissan in the states.
They were having trouble finding a place to get maintenance for the GT-R, so they contacted the Nissan testing team.
Mizuno got a first hand look at the P's grey import Nissan.
It was obvious that P's GT-R neglected their 2000km post run-in inspection, but were conducting their "Time trials" in Nurburgring.
The wheel alignment was off, running on the outer edge.
The gear shifts took well over 1 second.
The brake pads weren't pre-baked for track use, and were stuck to the rotors.
Nissan provided them with rotors, pads, and basic maintenance.
According to Mizuno, the 911T Nissan used for comparison was brought to Porsche Japan for maintenance before testing. For the GT-R, the tires are purchased through the market, not directly from factory, even the petro comes from local stations outside the Nurburgring circuit.(If anybody could confirm this it would be great) He was rather surprised that a sports car maker would neglect maintenance and yet conduct high speed tests. If he were supervising such test, he would never allow such car on the track.
Mizuno also claims that P's people who were actually conducting tests on the GT-R in Nurburg were eager to contact Nissan for maintenance. But after some P's top brass leaked out the "racing slicks" story, he feels that P's people who asked for maintenance are in a rock and a hard place.
Summary end.
IMHO, if Mizuno is telling the truth, it explains the statement Nissan came out with.
On the other hand, maybe P cars are that reliable that they need less maintenance or no run-in period.
Who knows? I'm happy with my subi. Flat4 AWD, that's the real poor man's Porsche.
Anyways, in the video Mizuno feels that this story is rather silly, and doesn't want to make it a big deal. So chlii out.
Video in Japanese.
Short summary:
P's is probably telling the truth about the time they achieved....
P's not saying anything about maintenance, or what kind of state the GT-R was in.
P's actual testers knew they needed maintenance, the top brass ???
Long summary:
In September at Nurburgring, a certain German Sports car maker came to Nissan's garage with a grey import Nissan GT-R bought from Universal Nissan in the states.
They were having trouble finding a place to get maintenance for the GT-R, so they contacted the Nissan testing team.
Mizuno got a first hand look at the P's grey import Nissan.
It was obvious that P's GT-R neglected their 2000km post run-in inspection, but were conducting their "Time trials" in Nurburgring.
The wheel alignment was off, running on the outer edge.
The gear shifts took well over 1 second.
The brake pads weren't pre-baked for track use, and were stuck to the rotors.
Nissan provided them with rotors, pads, and basic maintenance.
According to Mizuno, the 911T Nissan used for comparison was brought to Porsche Japan for maintenance before testing. For the GT-R, the tires are purchased through the market, not directly from factory, even the petro comes from local stations outside the Nurburgring circuit.(If anybody could confirm this it would be great) He was rather surprised that a sports car maker would neglect maintenance and yet conduct high speed tests. If he were supervising such test, he would never allow such car on the track.
Mizuno also claims that P's people who were actually conducting tests on the GT-R in Nurburg were eager to contact Nissan for maintenance. But after some P's top brass leaked out the "racing slicks" story, he feels that P's people who asked for maintenance are in a rock and a hard place.
Summary end.
IMHO, if Mizuno is telling the truth, it explains the statement Nissan came out with.
On the other hand, maybe P cars are that reliable that they need less maintenance or no run-in period.
Who knows? I'm happy with my subi. Flat4 AWD, that's the real poor man's Porsche.
Anyways, in the video Mizuno feels that this story is rather silly, and doesn't want to make it a big deal. So chlii out.
#7
09-12-2009, 03:38 AM
I guess all the other 7:50+ GT-R's were knackered too huh?
Seems like Porsche followed the anyone, anytime, anywhere theme and took the car straight to the track. And this is what happens when you do. Can't be said for all the other showroom GT-R's that have lapped the ring in the 7:50'ish area.
It obviously wasn't knackered before it went, but a few laps of the ring is hard when you don't have a team of engineers, stacks of tires and brakes to change every lap. Seems more consistent with all the guys who can't do a whole session without the car needing a breather.
Even with all the high maintenance, you can't drive whole sessions and track days without issues, or cooling mods, or both.
Seems like Porsche followed the anyone, anytime, anywhere theme and took the car straight to the track. And this is what happens when you do. Can't be said for all the other showroom GT-R's that have lapped the ring in the 7:50'ish area.
It obviously wasn't knackered before it went, but a few laps of the ring is hard when you don't have a team of engineers, stacks of tires and brakes to change every lap. Seems more consistent with all the guys who can't do a whole session without the car needing a breather.
Even with all the high maintenance, you can't drive whole sessions and track days without issues, or cooling mods, or both.
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#8
09-12-2009, 05:03 AM
I guess all the other 7:50+ GT-R's were knackered too huh?
Seems like Porsche followed the anyone, anytime, anywhere theme and took the car straight to the track. And this is what happens when you do. Can't be said for all the other showroom GT-R's that have lapped the ring in the 7:50'ish area.
It obviously wasn't knackered before it went, but a few laps of the ring is hard when you don't have a team of engineers, stacks of tires and brakes to change every lap. Seems more consistent with all the guys who can't do a whole session without the car needing a breather.
Even with all the high maintenance, you can't drive whole sessions and track days without issues, or cooling mods, or both.
Seems like Porsche followed the anyone, anytime, anywhere theme and took the car straight to the track. And this is what happens when you do. Can't be said for all the other showroom GT-R's that have lapped the ring in the 7:50'ish area.
It obviously wasn't knackered before it went, but a few laps of the ring is hard when you don't have a team of engineers, stacks of tires and brakes to change every lap. Seems more consistent with all the guys who can't do a whole session without the car needing a breather.
Even with all the high maintenance, you can't drive whole sessions and track days without issues, or cooling mods, or both.
The wheel alignment was off, running on the outer edge.
The gear shifts took well over 1 second.
The brake pads weren't pre-baked for track use, and were stuck to the rotors.
The gear shifts took well over 1 second.
The brake pads weren't pre-baked for track use, and were stuck to the rotors.
As regards the whole endurance racer thing, it's over-done. Not what 99.99% of people want from a car. Admittedly the GTR isn't suited to endurance but neither is a 997TT. Any car over a tonne is the wrong car for such events. The GT3 might make a better job of 2 hour track sessions but it's inferior in sub-10 minute time attacks, it performs worse on B-roads and is virtually undriveable in the wet. Quite a compromise for the sake of achieving an endurance racing performance boost from a 'road' car. Most GTR drivers are sodding bored after 10 minutes lapping the same damn track anyway. Time to drive off and have some fun on the way home. I mean, how long before the same damn curves become very boring?
Not denying that the GT3 has a niche but it's a small niche. I.e. people who want a road car, that's only moderately effective across the broad scope of road conditions but gets very competitive after an hour on a track day. The question is, how many people want to lap for that long and of those people, how many also need the car to be road capable and aren't willing to go for something way lighter, faster and seriously competitive along with a 2nd car for road work? Nigh on £100k is a lot of money to pay out on a car that's neither best on the road, nor the track and yet use it for a lot of track work.
Don't get me wrong there are other qualities that make a GT3 highly desirable (high revving flat-6 etc.) but I don't think going round and round in a circle 100 times every Sunday is high up on that list. Certainly wouldn't be for me.
#10
09-12-2009, 07:30 AM
Yes. Snetterton once about 8 years ago and Cadwell twice 4 or 5 years back. It's a good laugh but loses its appeal reasonably quickly. It's cheaper all round and more fun to find a quiet, safe stretch of road and I'm fortunate with where I live in that regard. 100 laps is boring in my opinion. Driving ceases to be enjoyable and becomes a job I'd want paying for somewhere around 10-15 laps in.
The point I'm trying to get across is that the GT3 is for people who are serious enough about endurance racing to compromise the road-going abilities of their car but nevertheless want a proper(ish) road car and aren't serious enough to go for a more specialized track car. It's certainly a niche but Porsche's recent economic situation raises questions as to whether the niche is large enough. Maybe they need to focus more on the other attributes that make their cars attractive.
The point I'm trying to get across is that the GT3 is for people who are serious enough about endurance racing to compromise the road-going abilities of their car but nevertheless want a proper(ish) road car and aren't serious enough to go for a more specialized track car. It's certainly a niche but Porsche's recent economic situation raises questions as to whether the niche is large enough. Maybe they need to focus more on the other attributes that make their cars attractive.
#12
09-12-2009, 09:07 AM
So what? At least I know I'm not a professional racing driver and don't spend every weekend there trying to pretend that I am, when really I'm just some bald, middle-aged guy with a rather mediocre driving talent and a bit of money.
The fact is that cars like GTRs are predominantly for fast road use, not endurance racing, as indeed is a GT3. To that end the GTR is a better compromise for the vast proportion of the market. It's better in the wet, better on the road and better in time-attack and cheaper. The GT3 on the other hand is better for the purpose of racing for an hour or so. But I re-state my original critique that this is a limited niche. The niche of 'the fairly serious but not so serious pro-driver wannabe but need a car for a daily driver and don't want 2 cars' man. Of course many Porsche owners have 2 cars (or more) and just like Porsches but I think this explains why I think your criticism of the GTR is largely irrelevant to the masses.
The fact is that cars like GTRs are predominantly for fast road use, not endurance racing, as indeed is a GT3. To that end the GTR is a better compromise for the vast proportion of the market. It's better in the wet, better on the road and better in time-attack and cheaper. The GT3 on the other hand is better for the purpose of racing for an hour or so. But I re-state my original critique that this is a limited niche. The niche of 'the fairly serious but not so serious pro-driver wannabe but need a car for a daily driver and don't want 2 cars' man. Of course many Porsche owners have 2 cars (or more) and just like Porsches but I think this explains why I think your criticism of the GTR is largely irrelevant to the masses.
#13
09-12-2009, 10:44 AM
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These threads are getting so played out. I honestly could not care much less about any of this anymore. I really believe that most of the people on this forum couldn't care much less either. There will never be a satisfactory end for either side of this debate. Please take these threads somewhere else.
Driving a car is an experience. Depending on what you like depends on what you are looking for from a car and the experience that it provides. I used to enjoy reading about 'ring times, but that has changed. Who the hell cares what time a GT-R or 911 can do on the 'ring? It isn't your time on that track is it? All too often these days it is more about the numbers that you can advertise than the experience and feel of the drive. I would like to believe that people on this forum care more about the way the car makes them smile than the time someone else can produce on the Nurburgring. The fastest time doesn't always equal the best time (most fun) in a car. Enjoy how your car makes YOU happy.
Oh and by the way just in case anyone didn't realize- this is a PORSCHE FORUM. While the people on this forum are usually open minded, you would have to be pretty dense to believe that there is not going to be a little bias...
End Rant.
Driving a car is an experience. Depending on what you like depends on what you are looking for from a car and the experience that it provides. I used to enjoy reading about 'ring times, but that has changed. Who the hell cares what time a GT-R or 911 can do on the 'ring? It isn't your time on that track is it? All too often these days it is more about the numbers that you can advertise than the experience and feel of the drive. I would like to believe that people on this forum care more about the way the car makes them smile than the time someone else can produce on the Nurburgring. The fastest time doesn't always equal the best time (most fun) in a car. Enjoy how your car makes YOU happy.
Oh and by the way just in case anyone didn't realize- this is a PORSCHE FORUM. While the people on this forum are usually open minded, you would have to be pretty dense to believe that there is not going to be a little bias...
End Rant.
#14
09-12-2009, 11:31 AM
Having said that, I think the GT-R fulfills its mission very well. The vast majority of buyers aren't going to subject it to heavy track use.
#15
09-12-2009, 11:54 AM
Data point: AMS ran a high speed test at Nardo with a GT3, Murcielago, R8 V10, Vantage V12, Mercedes SLR, Cadillac CTS-V and a Nissan GT-R. Guess which one of those cars could not complete the test due to a blown engine after a single lap?
Having said that, I think the GT-R fulfills its mission very well. The vast majority of buyers aren't going to subject it to heavy track use.
Having said that, I think the GT-R fulfills its mission very well. The vast majority of buyers aren't going to subject it to heavy track use.
