Protomotive monsters
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Originally Posted by cjv
Red 9,
I have no interest in capitalizing on any of my ideas.
Life was much less stressful when information was shared strictly with a small group of not for profit friends who meet several times a year to race, share info over dinner or beers, go home make a few changes and start the whole thing over again. None of us really care who wins on what month as it usually rotated. I was just expecting too much from these world wide forums.
I have no interest in capitalizing on any of my ideas.
Life was much less stressful when information was shared strictly with a small group of not for profit friends who meet several times a year to race, share info over dinner or beers, go home make a few changes and start the whole thing over again. None of us really care who wins on what month as it usually rotated. I was just expecting too much from these world wide forums.
The world wide web is just a lot bigger and more immediate discussion group that has created a much faster learning and exposure to ideas on a much wider front.This is a major benefit to everyone and particularly when you go about doing it all in public as you have done. Sure there are people out there that do nothing but criticise you-- but I am sure that some very knowledgable people have followed and read your thread and got something from it. Very easy to be a knocker-- it is much harder to be a doer- and even more so when being a pioneer as well. Remember the positive responses and only bother with the constructive criticism.
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Originally Posted by Red 9
Chad- I meant capitilizing in the context of get an advantage- not necessarily financial from your work.
The world wide web is just a lot bigger and more immediate discussion group that has created a much faster learning and exposure to ideas on a much wider front.This is a major benefit to everyone and particularly when you go about doing it all in public as you have done. Sure there are people out there that do nothing but criticise you-- but I am sure that some very knowledgable people have followed and read your thread and got something from it. Very easy to be a knocker-- it is much harder to be a doer- and even more so when being a pioneer as well. Remember the positive responses and only bother with the constructive criticism.
The world wide web is just a lot bigger and more immediate discussion group that has created a much faster learning and exposure to ideas on a much wider front.This is a major benefit to everyone and particularly when you go about doing it all in public as you have done. Sure there are people out there that do nothing but criticise you-- but I am sure that some very knowledgable people have followed and read your thread and got something from it. Very easy to be a knocker-- it is much harder to be a doer- and even more so when being a pioneer as well. Remember the positive responses and only bother with the constructive criticism.
"The men who try to do something and fail are infinitely better than those who try to do nothing and succeed." Lloyd Jones.
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vr, markski, and divex all have some SICK *** TT's! 1000 whp is def a possibility as we have seen what some of these guys have done with their turbos. its gonna take more work, but protomotive tunes and builds these cars as if they were the ones who originally designed the motor, they are that good.
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Originally Posted by MrBlonde
You have to draw the line somwhere Chad. New tech will never stop coming down the line.
Trouble is I know you are right.
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Originally Posted by Red 9
Chad- I meant capitilizing in the context of get an advantage- not necessarily financial from your work.
The world wide web is just a lot bigger and more immediate discussion group that has created a much faster learning and exposure to ideas on a much wider front.This is a major benefit to everyone and particularly when you go about doing it all in public as you have done. Sure there are people out there that do nothing but criticise you-- but I am sure that some very knowledgable people have followed and read your thread and got something from it. Very easy to be a knocker-- it is much harder to be a doer- and even more so when being a pioneer as well. Remember the positive responses and only bother with the constructive criticism.
The world wide web is just a lot bigger and more immediate discussion group that has created a much faster learning and exposure to ideas on a much wider front.This is a major benefit to everyone and particularly when you go about doing it all in public as you have done. Sure there are people out there that do nothing but criticise you-- but I am sure that some very knowledgable people have followed and read your thread and got something from it. Very easy to be a knocker-- it is much harder to be a doer- and even more so when being a pioneer as well. Remember the positive responses and only bother with the constructive criticism.
The air quality up there is great for turbos
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Originally Posted by cjv
You know in 2003/04 I thought 700 hp for these motors was ultimate. Fast forward three years and I think the same about the power being derived today.
Trouble is I know you are right.
Trouble is I know you are right.
Yes! when we look at how Drivextreme and Mark have accomplished. Number speak itself.
However, one thing I don't understand why a lot of European tuners such as RUF, 9ff, Techart or Sportec, insist that any 996TT mod beyond 600hp has to mod the internal compoenets as oppose to US tuner's claim under 700hp is safe limit. Moreover, all European tuners require owners at least to send their engine to Europe for rebuilding or modifing the engine internal in order to make safe < 600hp. I know this might be a dumb question for you all. But can someone or CJV please explain to me?
Last edited by S4corrado996TT; May 18, 2007 at 03:23 AM.
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I am slowing getting into the league.. Just fired up my Protomotive 3.8 liter kit!!! She sounds like a EVOMS eater ...... thanks EVOMS for not wanting to build my GT800....save money and was finished in two weeks vs 12 months..
Robert
Robert
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Originally Posted by S4corrado996TT
Yes! when we look at how Drivextreme and Mark have accomplished. Number speak itself.
However, one thing I don't understand why a lot of European tuners such as RUF, 9ff, Techart or Sportec, insist that any 996TT mod beyond 600hp has to mod the internal compoenets as oppose to US tuner's claim under 700hp is safe limit. Moreover, all European tuners require owners at least to send their engine to Europe for rebuilding or modifing the engine internal in order to make safe < 600hp. I know this might be a dumb question for you all. But can someone or CJV please explain to me?
However, one thing I don't understand why a lot of European tuners such as RUF, 9ff, Techart or Sportec, insist that any 996TT mod beyond 600hp has to mod the internal compoenets as oppose to US tuner's claim under 700hp is safe limit. Moreover, all European tuners require owners at least to send their engine to Europe for rebuilding or modifing the engine internal in order to make safe < 600hp. I know this might be a dumb question for you all. But can someone or CJV please explain to me?
1) In europe, particularly German, cars "tend" to be driven at higher speeds and somewhat harder, this isnt an all encompassing rule, and of course there are exceptions but this is generally the case. Obviously because of this the engine is under much higher stress (under high boost for longer due to accelerating etc etc)
2) Europe tends to use dynoes which are not wildly inaccurate (i.e, MAHA) This means that a 600bhp car in europe will be 700 in the states.
3) We dont use racing fuel like you guys in the U.S, and thus dont have the advantages of the higher octane (resistance to knock, ability to just up the boost etc). For instance the best fuel most widely used is Shell V power rated at 100 octane, which is the equivalent of 96 in USA.
I think those are the biggest issues, if you want to run your car hard and want it to last, then internal work above 600bhp is very advisable- if this isnt what you do, and just want a headline figure, 700 is possible, but it might just end in tears.
Best,
adam
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Originally Posted by S4corrado996TT
Yes! when we look at how Drivextreme and Mark have accomplished. Number speak itself.
However, one thing I don't understand why a lot of European tuners such as RUF, 9ff, Techart or Sportec, insist that any 996TT mod beyond 600hp has to mod the internal compoenets as oppose to US tuner's claim under 700hp is safe limit. Moreover, all European tuners require owners at least to send their engine to Europe for rebuilding or modifing the engine internal in order to make safe < 600hp. I know this might be a dumb question for you all. But can someone or CJV please explain to me?
However, one thing I don't understand why a lot of European tuners such as RUF, 9ff, Techart or Sportec, insist that any 996TT mod beyond 600hp has to mod the internal compoenets as oppose to US tuner's claim under 700hp is safe limit. Moreover, all European tuners require owners at least to send their engine to Europe for rebuilding or modifing the engine internal in order to make safe < 600hp. I know this might be a dumb question for you all. But can someone or CJV please explain to me?
As for sending the motors over there, I believe it comes down to the fact if they don't build the motor they cannot be sure that it will hold up to the add on components. A blow motor is bad advertisement and this is something they don't want to deal with. This is my opinion.
As for the 600 hp ....... are you referring to fwhp or rwhp? 600 rwhp is about 700 fwhp. The eurpean hp is not any more than US hp. It is a matter of what hp standard they are using. They can dial most dyno's into any standard they choose. It is just a little game used by the tuners for publicity purposes. The important thing is comparing like dyno's with like standards. You want a reading that compensates for temp., pressure, etc.
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Originally Posted by AdamT
I think there are several pertinent reasons:
1) In europe, particularly German, cars "tend" to be driven at higher speeds and somewhat harder, this isnt an all encompassing rule, and of course there are exceptions but this is generally the case. Obviously because of this the engine is under much higher stress (under high boost for longer due to accelerating etc etc)
2) Europe tends to use dynoes which are not wildly inaccurate (i.e, MAHA) This means that a 600bhp car in europe will be 700 in the states.
3) We dont use racing fuel like you guys in the U.S, and thus dont have the advantages of the higher octane (resistance to knock, ability to just up the boost etc). For instance the best fuel most widely used is Shell V power rated at 100 octane, which is the equivalent of 96 in USA.
I think those are the biggest issues, if you want to run your car hard and want it to last, then internal work above 600bhp is very advisable- if this isnt what you do, and just want a headline figure, 700 is possible, but it might just end in tears.
Best,
adam
1) In europe, particularly German, cars "tend" to be driven at higher speeds and somewhat harder, this isnt an all encompassing rule, and of course there are exceptions but this is generally the case. Obviously because of this the engine is under much higher stress (under high boost for longer due to accelerating etc etc)
2) Europe tends to use dynoes which are not wildly inaccurate (i.e, MAHA) This means that a 600bhp car in europe will be 700 in the states.
3) We dont use racing fuel like you guys in the U.S, and thus dont have the advantages of the higher octane (resistance to knock, ability to just up the boost etc). For instance the best fuel most widely used is Shell V power rated at 100 octane, which is the equivalent of 96 in USA.
I think those are the biggest issues, if you want to run your car hard and want it to last, then internal work above 600bhp is very advisable- if this isnt what you do, and just want a headline figure, 700 is possible, but it might just end in tears.
Best,
adam
europeans drive there cars faster and harder? i guess we have never met .theres peopel who track the hell out of their cars with no issues whatsoever.
europe tends to use low reading dynos ? LOL they dont make a mustang dyno europen edition , or a dyno dynamics US edition , its the same thing.so again ....
u dont have racing fuels? dude 100 oct is pump gas in greece ,and readily available at every pump ,as our 93 is here ... and yes they do have race gas readily available. so u do have better fuels over there for sure .
i just think that us tuners are willing to push the envelope a lil more then euro tuners and are better then euro tuners . plus with the euro to dollar now , its cheaper for us then it is for you guys.
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I am with Adam here, except concerning the issue of dyno accuracy, I would say it is rather how the dynos that are used, load the engine, that makes the difference. MAHA dynos seem to load much heavier, they will also show lower peak numbers but more area under the curve as a result, but that will be the case in both continents!
A well run engine dyno typically will produce more accurate and conservative peak results than a chassis dyno.
Also, the same chassis dyno, same exact car, with 2 runs made in different gears, will show you different results (even if corrected ratios are used), let alone if you compare between different dynos, different operators, different continents, etc..
Also as CJV said, in other words, any dyno runs not corrected to a standard are meaningless, SAE or DIN, the results will not be much different though, since the temperature, pressure and humidity used by both standards is not too far away, but there must be a standard.
Certainly a tuned European driven Porsche doing a 100 miles drive at average speeds of 150 mph will need to be running less boost or brake its engine, and warranties given by those tuners can turn out to be expensive. This (sustained high speed) is sth. the US tuners do not have to worry about much.
I don't believe in the relevance of transcontinental technical know-how comparisons between tuners, I chose Protomotive and couldn't be happier, others chose RS Tuning, or RUF or Manthey and couldn't be happier.
As to building engine internals, IMO if your objective is to run quartermile bursts at 1.5 Bar of boost, you might be safe without internals for a while (it seems), if you want to run an enduro on the track at 1.2 Bar on stock internals, you might need a rebuild in a week, it all depends on the usage.
unvmym3, do you live in Europe?
A well run engine dyno typically will produce more accurate and conservative peak results than a chassis dyno.
Also, the same chassis dyno, same exact car, with 2 runs made in different gears, will show you different results (even if corrected ratios are used), let alone if you compare between different dynos, different operators, different continents, etc..
Also as CJV said, in other words, any dyno runs not corrected to a standard are meaningless, SAE or DIN, the results will not be much different though, since the temperature, pressure and humidity used by both standards is not too far away, but there must be a standard.
Certainly a tuned European driven Porsche doing a 100 miles drive at average speeds of 150 mph will need to be running less boost or brake its engine, and warranties given by those tuners can turn out to be expensive. This (sustained high speed) is sth. the US tuners do not have to worry about much.
I don't believe in the relevance of transcontinental technical know-how comparisons between tuners, I chose Protomotive and couldn't be happier, others chose RS Tuning, or RUF or Manthey and couldn't be happier.
As to building engine internals, IMO if your objective is to run quartermile bursts at 1.5 Bar of boost, you might be safe without internals for a while (it seems), if you want to run an enduro on the track at 1.2 Bar on stock internals, you might need a rebuild in a week, it all depends on the usage.
unvmym3, do you live in Europe?
Last edited by Jean; May 18, 2007 at 10:22 AM.
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Originally Posted by unvmym3
LMAO , ok let me call u out on that firstly.
europeans drive there cars faster and harder? i guess we have never met .theres peopel who track the hell out of their cars with no issues whatsoever.
europe tends to use low reading dynos ? LOL they dont make a mustang dyno europen edition , or a dyno dynamics US edition , its the same thing.so again ....
u dont have racing fuels? dude 100 oct is pump gas in greece ,and readily available at every pump ,as our 93 is here ... and yes they do have race gas readily available. so u do have better fuels over there for sure .
i just think that us tuners are willing to push the envelope a lil more then euro tuners and are better then euro tuners . plus with the euro to dollar now , its cheaper for us then it is for you guys.
europeans drive there cars faster and harder? i guess we have never met .theres peopel who track the hell out of their cars with no issues whatsoever.
europe tends to use low reading dynos ? LOL they dont make a mustang dyno europen edition , or a dyno dynamics US edition , its the same thing.so again ....
u dont have racing fuels? dude 100 oct is pump gas in greece ,and readily available at every pump ,as our 93 is here ... and yes they do have race gas readily available. so u do have better fuels over there for sure .
i just think that us tuners are willing to push the envelope a lil more then euro tuners and are better then euro tuners . plus with the euro to dollar now , its cheaper for us then it is for you guys.
I know there are exceptions to my statement, but as a rule cars are driven much harder in europe (especially germany, where a large amount of tuned porsches reside)
When you mean "track" do you mean quarter mile racing or trackdays on a race track? I think Jean covered the reasoning for quarter mile racing above, so i wont go there.
In the case in point with regard to dynos, you should check out how disappointed one US dyno user was when he took his car to what is widely accepted as the best dyno, MAHA:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=80843
I think you your confusing yourself over the fuel issue as well, check out this for clarity over RON and MON( the us fuel rating)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_Rating
There is certainly no doubt that in europe the fuel is of better quality, it has been for decades. Because of this, and this is all imho and purely conjecture, I believe there is more of a culture in the U.S to use racing fuel, whereas over here that is not so.
I wont get into the arguement over which side of the atlantic has the best tuners as thats puerile and a waste of time,
best
adam
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jean , i live part of the year in europe and part of the year in the states ..
adam, thats one case god knows what was wrong with his ,car .. a dyno dynamics or a mustang are the same in europe or here , regardless of what u say ..... and there the most accurate dynos at at that ,
and i didnt mean qurter mile track i meant regular race track. andi do understand that fuel ratings and still 100 oct in europe is still way better then anything on a regular pump inthe us , even if the 100 oct is = to 96 as u said the difference is the same as 90 to 93 , pretty dramatic , thus me saying that in europe the fuel quality and oct . is much better.
but as u said ,.we agree to dissagree on the tuner part..
adam, thats one case god knows what was wrong with his ,car .. a dyno dynamics or a mustang are the same in europe or here , regardless of what u say ..... and there the most accurate dynos at at that ,
and i didnt mean qurter mile track i meant regular race track. andi do understand that fuel ratings and still 100 oct in europe is still way better then anything on a regular pump inthe us , even if the 100 oct is = to 96 as u said the difference is the same as 90 to 93 , pretty dramatic , thus me saying that in europe the fuel quality and oct . is much better.
but as u said ,.we agree to dissagree on the tuner part..