I don't get involved in these types of pissing contests anymore but thought I'd show you some support (not that you need it ).
Listen don't let it bother you... that's exactly what Mr. Manifold and his cohorts wants.
This is purely an exercise in putting others down in order to elevate oneself...
This 991 section has been overrun by naysayers... like anyone who's just bought/placed an order for a 991 is going to care what 997 owners think, or for that matter need their blessing!
The self-importance in these types of posts is just staggering!
Not to mention that it always turns into aggressive, condescending and insulting banter!

If we were to go over to the 997 section and start "criticizing" and attacking their precious 911's there'd be hell to pay... but because there just isn't enough 991 members yet (out numbered 10 to1) it's open season here.

The funniest thing though... is those whom absolutely trashed the 991 are now buying the 991 themselves!
Not to mention most 991 owners used to (or still have) a 997!
It's ridiculous... that said it's also priceless seeing those same individuals whom used to trash the 991 scwerm around justifying why they NOW feel the 991 is the "better" car.

I've gotten into some heated debates about this elitists behavior and decided that it's a wast of time (as many 991 supporters/owners have).
You can talk till you're green in the face... if anything you'll get insults thrown at you and swarmed on... should you decide to defend yourself, those of like mind or your beloved 991 with any intensity you'll get banned for it (under a plausible ulterior pretext) by those whom calls us insecure/ over compensating for inferiority complexes and badge ******... all because we love the 991

Watch as the 997/GTR squad decents upon your thread and starts ripping into people for loving the 991... "but they're just stating opinions about cars"... rightttt.

For a second I though this could be a thread for 991 lovers only... where they share opinions and experiences, pros & cons...
Guess not... nice try though!

Cheers!

 

Agreed, I loved both my 997.1 and 997.2 more than any other 911s I owned. I'm hoping the 991 will eclipse them and I'm putting a significant amount of money on that bet and I could never go back and get a better 997.2 than this one.

ChuckJ

 

Well let's see. OP cited an article and asked for thoughts on it. We're discussing it reasonably enough, so what's the problem? You're not staying out of pissing contests, you're instigating them.

 

Agreed, he did ask... I'm just wondering if there's ever going to be a thread which will be void of negativity towards the 991 and it's owners.

Anyway I've given my views and have no intention of getting any further involved just wanted to show some support to a 991 owner who is clearly outnumbered here...

I will ad this, my views of current and past negative posts towards the 991 make me an "instigator" but yours (one of the participants of said negativity) constitute "reasonable discussion"...

Thanks for making my point.
The floor is all yours, knock yourself out.

 

I don't think you're being realistic. The 991 is the latest version of Porsche's flagship. It's introduction is a major event in the car world and especially Porsche world. Intense scrutiny of the car for a long time is to be expected, especially given the major changes it entails. I know that's not ideal for new 991 owners, but this forum isn't limited to that audience.

 

Did Porsche go to electric steering to improve handling and feedback: No

Does it feel as good or better than the 997.2?: No

Is it an improvement? No

Did Porsche got to electric steering to save a minute amount of fuel and manufacturing costs: Yes

Did Porsche know this would compromise handling and feedback: Yes

Not a single magazine has reported the steering on the 991 is better than on the 997. Not a single magazine has said, steering has improved.

They've all said variations on, "Meh, it's not that bad as you'd think, you'll get used to it, it's not that noticeable after a while, you might not miss it."

Porsche is known for it's steering more than almost anything else. And they made it worse not better. Fact.

Model year 2013 starts in July. Doubt the steering will be any different.

 

Angry 997 Owners Report In! ^^^

I am annoyed with these posts. Just drop it.

The 991 is an improvement on every single aspect except some peoples' "emotions." So sad...I don't care.

There are better things we can talk about.

 

A better come back would have been, "If the new steering's so awful why is it 14 seconds faster around the 'Ring?"

For the record I love the new 991 and can't stop thinking about it. My budget will only allow for a future 981 Cayman S, but maybe one day...

 

Hi I just check the lap times at fastest laps, you can easily see how fast the new 991 compare to old 997.2. Even Cayman R is faster than 997.2S in some tracks but I never see people complaining that 997.2S is slow against the R.

991S vs 997.2S vs Cayman R
Sachsenring = 1.36.62 vs 1.39.08
Hockenhiem Short = 1.10.40 vs 1.13.40
Nordschleife = 7.40 vs 7.50
Autozeitung test track = 1.36.20 vs 1.39.00
Vairano handling course = 1.17.44 vs 1.18.05
Magny cours = 1.22.98 vs 1.24.57O
Balocco = 2.52.85 vs 2.54.30

991S vs 997.2S vs Cayman R
Sachsenring = 1.36.62 vs 1.39.08 vs 1.38.90
Hockenhiem Short = 1.10.40 vs 1.13.40 vs 1.12.40
Nordschleife = 7.40 vs 7.50 vs 8.06

**Some tracks 991S is even faster than Mercedes SLS, Ferrari 458 and 997 Turbo So why should we bother that 991S is not fast enough ? I am the one who is really happy with my 991S**

991S
http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/pors...carrera_s.html

997.2 C2S
http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/pors..._facelift.html

Please do not forget that sport plus is recommended for track day since it will enable many racing's features.
- Faster PDK change *Red line shifts
- Faster throttle respond
- More aggressive engine mapping *A must for racing, no more fuel saving
- More aggressive PTV
- Stiffer engine dynamic mount
- Stiffer PDDC ( if you car has it ) *This feature alone makes 4 sec faster at ring
- Stiffer suspension ( you can manually enable it)

Everything has clearly stated in user manual: 991S + Sport Plus is Jekyll and Hyde, I don't think anyone would want to track 991S while it is in fuel saving mode.

PS. I upgraded from Cayman S PDK DFI 2011 to 991S PDK, I love both cars. Nothing difficult for me to accept the differences between each car as well as it is engaging to drive and of course both are very fast car.

 

^ Give the Cayman R another 50 hp and it may be a little faster than the 991S. Would that make the CR a better car than the 991S? Is speed the only consideration? I really don't understand this obsession with numbers. Fantasies aside, we're not racers (except maybe autocross, but that's more recreational racing, and Hondas can beat us there anyway).

 

Manifold,
Your reply took me aback. You set yourself up to judge 911'nes yet you have essentially no idea what that means having driven essentially only on iteration of 911's. For all you know, it is the 997 that is the outlier. I am very surprised that an an educated person with an engineering background would jump to such conclusions on so little data.

You suggest that your lack of experiences in 911's does not diminish the qualitative gap between the 996/997 and the 991. But, with respect, how would you know? The Hudson is a wide river which cuts a deep channel. But not compared to the Colorado. The gap between the shores of the Hudson becomes relatively smaller by comparison. As I mentioned before, I have driven other models and I am not imagining, I am telling you, from experience, that you don't have, that the differences in driver dynamic between the 996/997 and prior vintages dwarfs that between the 997 and the 991. If you think lack of continuity in driver dynamic can disqualify a car from claiming to be a 911, what new three digit number are you planning to use for your 997 because it is no more a 911 than a 991?

If you can read the NYC article's two sentences saying they like hydronic steering better and they don't know what history will record, out of two pages of accolades, and claim superiority, be my guess. I will take what shallow comfort I can if the pages after pages of glowing comments of so many others when comparing our cars.

My 991 is a 911. Porsche says it is. The articles say it is. My car says it is. And I say it is! If I were you, I would never drive a 991 again. Why waste your time? Go find a mid-80's Targa and get back to me when you have sufficient experience to voice an educated opinion!

 

Thanks for the good words and advice! I owe you a beer! And I will let you know the next time I am in Canada or L.A. So you can collect!

 

I love Cayman S for what it does for its price, and I love 991S for what it does.
If you don't care about numbers, then you better go with the base Cayman and base Carrera. Just my 2 cent.

Can I drive both cars to the limit, nay. Do I enjoy driving it hard, yes. We are not racers but we like to drive fast car, are't we?

 

The 996 and 997 are two generations, not one, and they span more than a decade. Could there be a significant enough difference between the 996/997 vs the prior generations for someone to claim that the 996/997 aren't true 911s? Sure, but I've only heard that claim made based on change to a water-cooled engine, not a fundamental qualitative change in the driving dynamics.

As I said before, those driving dynamics relate mainly to how the car pitches and rolls, along with steering feel, etc. No other car I've driven has those characteristics the way the 996/997 do, and that includes the 991 (and Boxster, Cayman, Panamera, etc.). Plenty of other people who've driven older 911 generations agree with me (though some don't).

You seem determined to claim that the 991 is a true 911 but, again, why does it matter? Don't you love your car either way? And what does it matter if you and I don't agree on whether it's a true 911? 'True 911' is a fuzzy set, and people have different criteria in defining it. I focus on things that some people apparently hardly care about, and vice versa.

Addendum: And to follow your reasoning, if an owner of a 993 or older generation adamantly tells me that my 997 isn't a true 911, even if the reason is a difference in the driving dynamics, I don't really have a problem with that. The 997 (and 996) still offer something I haven't found in other cars, including the 991, and I love them for it. I identify those traits with the 911, as do countless other people, but in the end '911' is just a name. It's the car that matters.

 

If you want to compare speed at a given price, the GT-R destroys the base 991 at about the same price. That doesn't make the 991 crap, and in fact I would still take a base 991 over the GT-R (though I'm very impressed by the GT-R). As I've said before, I think the 991 is a great car, but I'm not yet convinced that it's a 'true 911' (per my criteria) or that I like it more than the 997.

No one needs to share my criteria or, for that matter, give any weight to my opinion. We're just car guys talking about cars. We often get passionate, but ultimately it's not serious stuff. Read the heartbreaking thread about the passing of Gary's wife, who he loved so dearly -- that's serious stuff.