What you describe as freeing ones self up (not having to worry about shifting) so you can focus on the other aspects of driving is a non issue. Anyone who has been driving manual for years has that skill almost inbred in their driving. I have been driving manual for 50 years and the actual shifting does not take .001sec away from optimizing my driving.

 

Interesting.

I'd bet that almost 99% of engineers, crew chiefs, and competitive drivers would disagree with you.

(See: Sebastien Loeb, Sebastian Vettel, Michael Shumacher, Lewis Hamilton, Ron Dennis, Dario Franchitti, etc... for reference)

I've seen people drive for over 50 years, and still ride the clutch improperly, with less than ideal car control. The only difference with them, is that they are driving so slow, they are never in any real danger or threat of losing anything.

 

Let's not lose sight of the driving conditions we are describing for the most part. Many members of this forum are driving 98% of the time on regular roads under non race conditions. I agree that PDK can free one up for other concerns when on the racetrack. Even with spirited driving on regular roads, one is not faced with the hazards that present on a racetrack with other cars in close proximity traveling at high speed.

 

Your last sentence...."feel the adrenaline of well executed driving commands"......those would primarily be gas and brake? Personally I'd hope that in 20+ yrs of tracking and daily-driving Pcars that I had acquired a bit more ability than 'execution' of those.....but maybe not.

At the end of the day I understand that the answer here is personal, and all about what it is that you personally enjoy about getting behind the wheel. I'm given PDKs every time I have one of the cars in for service....sorry, no attraction for me. If they really make your day, go for it.

As for those who recite the speed and shift stats, sorry but it's never been about just getting from A to B (or Start to Finish) in the lowest time.....for me it's totally on the 'enjoyment of the process'. Kinda abstract I guess.

And not to get off topic but.....eliminating the third peddle from high-end Pcars also bothers me a tad because it removes a prerequisite (like being able to drive) for that amatuer driver that's next to me on the track. Well, I guess there actually is a prerequisite....he needs to have the money and be able to put his foot into it. Coming away from Ferrari Club's 50th at RA last week, I am particularly reminded of that last point for some reason.

Buy what you enjoy......enjoy what you drive.

 

Fair enough. You're right. I do lose sight of that, because even my daily commutes are spirited (simulated race conditions)...

 

I don't think I could possibly disagree more.

As someone who has been racing for over 15 years, I'm going to argue this point. The PDK decidedly does NOT increase the level of driver control. In fact, it sharply REDUCES the amount of driver control. I've driven slushbox autos, street manuals with synchros, CVTs, "auto-manuals" (PDK, et al), Hewland-style dog-ring gearboxes, and manual sequentials. While the PDK is certainly a lot better than a slushbox auto with torque converter, it's still nowhere near the feel of a direct manual or sequential. The PDK has two characteristics that really diminish its appeal to anyone who has driven a true racing transmission:
1) The dip in power delivery from a standing start - no serious performance car should EVER do this
2) The delay between command input and actual shift. People that actually drive their cars at the limit don't like variable response times - they want things to happen RIGHT NOW when they give the machine a command. The comments re: Shumacher, Vettel, et al, are not relevant to the PDK, because the PDK doesn't respond at the speed of a true racing transmission - not even close. The shift itself happens quickly, to be sure, but the delay of the shift actuation is unacceptable in a $100K "high-performance" car.

I think that the people who find the PDK to be "fantastic" haven't ever driven a true direct-linkage sequential or high-speed DCT. It's certainly better than most of what I've seen on the market, but I wouldn't put it my track car.

No argument there!

 

Wow, already 4 pages for yet another PDK vs MT sterile debate (meaning not adding any new perspective on the issue). The OP's point has been addressed, why don't we leave it there and agree that people may disagree...

 

...Interesting. I'd speculate that the clutch pedal is only there to disengage, re-engage the gears. Still most of the control is still done with throttle, brake, and steering inputs. The gear selection is not an input, but rather a setting that selects how much of only one input is applied.

 

OK but....I refuse to be refered to as the guy just...... "pootling around town, daily driving, bored with driving the car......" That's an insult.

 

Yes, very well said.

 

I made some comments regarding F-1 drivers. I was in no way trying to make any correlation that a pedal-less shifting transmission is better or worse than a pedal transmission. I was merely drawing a comparison to the level of car control being more involving, and more exciting without the need for a pedal.

Crew chiefs and car constructors probably want more of the drivers to be successful with their cars, than unsuccessful.

More successful drivers = better results = more buyers with better results.

 

Perfect Serge!..... but....
".... which... PDK or Manual?" <whiny voice and massive amounts of sarcasm>

Four pages of the same crud! Why did I read it?... I thought I may learn something new. I did not.

 

I'm talking as a petrolhead here, so when I say shifting, I mean a double declutched heel-toe downshift (not the the "declutch-downshift-engage clutch" every granny around here does in a blink of an eye without thinking). I've been doing this for over 20 years now and I am proficient at it. It is automatic for me. But still it takes lots of time to do that compared to a pdk downshift. Again, precious time lost focussing on what is important when driving !

If that really doesn't take a millisec away from you optimizing your driving (which I highly doubt), I bow to you !

 

What is different now, is that more car constructors are doing research, and determining that the dual clutch systems are, in fact, better.

(See: GT3, and sales numbers for PDK vs single clutch traditional manual, etc... for reference)

 

Greg, if you read my post carefully, do you really believe that I think the only thing about driving a car is gas and brake when you take manual shifting out of the equation ? Or worse, do YOU think that it's only about gas and brake then ?

And for your comment about a third peddle is about being able to drive, is what marks the keen educated driver. Please, don't make me laugh. Everyone, literally EVERYONE (grannys, grandpas, you name it) over here masters the clutch. Why do some people keep thinking a manual transmission is proof of you manhood or driving ability. Where I live it is just trivial stuff !