Pdk or Manual Transmission?
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 712
From: europe
Rep Power: 62
Again, we are debating PDK vs MT in a 991. I see no use in throwing race boxes into the equation !
Also, in the past we have discussed the lag you are talking about again. And back then I had it too. And I acknowledge that. But now my car has more miles on it and the lag has gone. The PDK is an adaptive/learning system, so I presume it recognizes my driving style and adapted accordingly, the shifts are INSTANTLY now (both with the paddles and the pdk shifter)!
Also, in the past we have discussed the lag you are talking about again. And back then I had it too. And I acknowledge that. But now my car has more miles on it and the lag has gone. The PDK is an adaptive/learning system, so I presume it recognizes my driving style and adapted accordingly, the shifts are INSTANTLY now (both with the paddles and the pdk shifter)!
As someone who has been racing for over 15 years, I'm going to argue this point. The PDK decidedly does NOT increase the level of driver control. In fact, it sharply REDUCES the amount of driver control.
2) The delay between command input and actual shift. People that actually drive their cars at the limit don't like variable response times - they want things to happen RIGHT NOW when they give the machine a command. The comments re: Shumacher, Vettel, et al, are not relevant to the PDK, because the PDK doesn't respond at the speed of a true racing transmission - not even close. The shift itself happens quickly, to be sure, but the delay of the shift actuation is unacceptable in a $100K "high-performance" car.
2) The delay between command input and actual shift. People that actually drive their cars at the limit don't like variable response times - they want things to happen RIGHT NOW when they give the machine a command. The comments re: Shumacher, Vettel, et al, are not relevant to the PDK, because the PDK doesn't respond at the speed of a true racing transmission - not even close. The shift itself happens quickly, to be sure, but the delay of the shift actuation is unacceptable in a $100K "high-performance" car.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 712
From: europe
Rep Power: 62
Gregg, I'm sorry. Didn't mean to belittle you, nor anyone else. I can get carried away sometimes (that's what you get when you are -too- passionate about your car)!
OK but....I refuse to be refered to as the guy just...... "pootling around town, daily driving, bored with driving the car......" That's an insult. 
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 130
From: Central Time Zone, US
Rep Power: 29
Also, in the past we have discussed the lag you are talking about again. And back then I had it too. And I acknowledge that. But now my car has more miles on it and the lag has gone. The PDK is an adaptive/learning system, so I presume it recognizes my driving style and adapted accordingly, the shifts are INSTANTLY now (both with the paddles and the pdk shifter)!
Seriously? If true, that's a very interesting development (and it might change my opinion of PDK).What about the "launch lag" from a dead stop?
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,306
From: Madison, WI
Rep Power: 82
Greg, if you read my post carefully, do you really believe that I think the only thing about driving a car is gas and brake when you take manual shifting out of the equation ? Or worse, do YOU think that it's only about gas and brake then ?
And for your comment about a third peddle is about being able to drive, is what marks the keen educated driver. Please, don't make me laugh. Everyone, literally EVERYONE (grannys, grandpas, you name it) over here masters the clutch. Why do some people keep thinking a manual transmission is proof of you manhood or driving ability. Where I live it is just trivial stuff !
And for your comment about a third peddle is about being able to drive, is what marks the keen educated driver. Please, don't make me laugh. Everyone, literally EVERYONE (grannys, grandpas, you name it) over here masters the clutch. Why do some people keep thinking a manual transmission is proof of you manhood or driving ability. Where I live it is just trivial stuff !
Whatever.....done here.
As I said before....buy what makes you happy. Hopefully that's the goal.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 712
From: europe
Rep Power: 62
Yes seriously ! Try to get a testdrive for a full day, so you can do more than 1000 miles and the pdk logic can adapt to your driving style ! Then you can feel for yourself I am not kidding !
Launch lag. Can't say FT. I still take it very easy off the line. No hard launches (I wouldn't even call them brisk launches), mini launch controls, or launch controls as of yet. So I haven't noticed any differences there. Just the "normal" gripping/slipping of the clutch as I drive away, just like it would in a Manual Transmission. I'll keep you posted when I notice things changing when I start lauching harder.
The engine hesitation at various rpms when reapplying the throttle IS still there though, allthough not always. Can't get my head around that one at the moment, but it is very very annoying ! Behaves like a turbo lag sometimes ! Crap !
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,219
From: Fayetteville
Rep Power: 499
Yes seriously ! Try to get a testdrive for a full day, so you can do more than 1000 miles and the pdk logic can adapt to your driving style ! Then you can feel for yourself I am not kidding !
Launch lag. Can't say FT. I still take it very easy off the line. No hard launches (I wouldn't even call them brisk launches), mini launch controls, or launch controls as of yet. So I haven't noticed any differences there. Just the "normal" gripping/slipping of the clutch as I drive away, just like it would in a Manual Transmission. I'll keep you posted when I notice things changing when I start lauching harder.
The engine hesitation at various rpms when reapplying the throttle IS still there though, allthough not always. Can't get my head around that one at the moment, but it is very very annoying ! Behaves like a turbo lag sometimes ! Crap !
Launch lag. Can't say FT. I still take it very easy off the line. No hard launches (I wouldn't even call them brisk launches), mini launch controls, or launch controls as of yet. So I haven't noticed any differences there. Just the "normal" gripping/slipping of the clutch as I drive away, just like it would in a Manual Transmission. I'll keep you posted when I notice things changing when I start lauching harder.
The engine hesitation at various rpms when reapplying the throttle IS still there though, allthough not always. Can't get my head around that one at the moment, but it is very very annoying ! Behaves like a turbo lag sometimes ! Crap !
This was the point I was making during that discussion. As seamless as some of you point out that driving a manual clutch pedal becomes, it is equally as seamless to adjust shift points and react .1secs sooner (if people can actually tell the difference in .1secs).
The shift takes place faster than removing your hand from the wheel to grasp the stick than it does to click the button (or paddle). But somehow people program their brains to know that -"If I'm coming into a corner, I preposition my hand on the stick, in preparation to grab the shifter a split second before I press the clutch pedal." This is how seamless learning to shift the dual clutch car be. It just takes practice (I'd also speculate it takes a lot less practice to master this as it does a single clutch pedal).
(bccars - I'm not offering a counterpoint, just adding my own experience with the 911's PDK)
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 712
From: europe
Rep Power: 62
Jasper. I'm quite sure it's not that in my case. I've been very aware of the lag and the possibility of "mental" adaptation on my part. It really has gotten way faster to the point that it's instantly from pulling the paddle or pushing/pulling the pdk shifter when I'm driving briskly in sportmode. I also tested it in a straight line, so no mental reprogramming or anticipating the shift was necessary like it would when setting up for a corner.
And it wasn't like that in the past, there was a noticeable lag back then, just like FT64 always said. Granted in the past, I was not always in sportmode, and I was driving less briskly due to breakin restrictions (and the sportmode throttle map/throttle pedal travel shortening has a tendency to trick you into giving it more stick).
And it wasn't like that in the past, there was a noticeable lag back then, just like FT64 always said. Granted in the past, I was not always in sportmode, and I was driving less briskly due to breakin restrictions (and the sportmode throttle map/throttle pedal travel shortening has a tendency to trick you into giving it more stick).
I'd speculate that the system isn't adaptive, it's YOU that is adaptive (programmed mentally that the shift takes '0.x seconds' to shift, so I'll click the paddle now - to engage the gear in the 10 feet I'm travelling at 'y' mph).
This was the point I was making during that discussion. As seamless as some of you point out that driving a manual clutch pedal becomes, it is equally as seamless to adjust shift points and react .1secs sooner (if people can actually tell the difference in .1secs).
(bccars - I'm not offering a counterpoint, just adding my own experience with the 911's PDK)
This was the point I was making during that discussion. As seamless as some of you point out that driving a manual clutch pedal becomes, it is equally as seamless to adjust shift points and react .1secs sooner (if people can actually tell the difference in .1secs).
(bccars - I'm not offering a counterpoint, just adding my own experience with the 911's PDK)
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,108
From: South Florida
Rep Power: 529
I completely disagree, like I already stated in my previous post.
To me a MT is for people pootling around town, daily driving, bored with driving the car at slow pace, so they need the distraction (which they call involvement) of shifting the car.
People that tend to drive briskly/fast appreciate the added level of control in a PDK so they can optimize their driving, ie scanning the road, scanning traffic, managing treshhold braking, car balance, hit their apexes, manage traction out of corners, ... and so on. A MT is by definition a slow shift were the clutch is open for a longer time, thus more time out of control, and more time wasted shifting that could be used efficiently on other key aspects of driving ! And it's the total package of driving fast, near or on the limit which I call involvement. It's then that you feel alive, feel your body tingle, feel the adrenaline of well executed driving commands.
To me a MT is for people pootling around town, daily driving, bored with driving the car at slow pace, so they need the distraction (which they call involvement) of shifting the car.
People that tend to drive briskly/fast appreciate the added level of control in a PDK so they can optimize their driving, ie scanning the road, scanning traffic, managing treshhold braking, car balance, hit their apexes, manage traction out of corners, ... and so on. A MT is by definition a slow shift were the clutch is open for a longer time, thus more time out of control, and more time wasted shifting that could be used efficiently on other key aspects of driving ! And it's the total package of driving fast, near or on the limit which I call involvement. It's then that you feel alive, feel your body tingle, feel the adrenaline of well executed driving commands.
PDK evolved tremendously in the last four years since Porsche introduced it to the 997. Drive a 2009 PDK car and it will seem so dated in contrast to todays 991 .
Despite the manual opting for a 7 speed the component retains its traditional element built on simplicity . It can be called dated but not in the same manner as with the dated PDK . Technology does not get the same free pass when the new system trumps the old (as a multi decade traditional component) .
When the car or its engine can not evolve as rapidly as the technology the relatively new car can feel like a used car very fast and at 120K a pop that's expensive .
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,550
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Rep Power: 116
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 274
From: NY
Rep Power: 29
Yeah, but Porsche did mess with the manual, adding Hill Hold and an e-brake.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 712
From: europe
Rep Power: 62
In depth info:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-pdk-tech-dept
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
evermore
Aston Martin
19
Sep 29, 2016 08:27 AM
