991.2 GTS with a modest tune say 50hp/50tq, take a 991.2 gt3? thoughts
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Every 991.2 with the 3.0L engine produces more power than Porsche claims. They don't want buyers to pass on the 550hp Turbo because the GTS makes 475hp for $50,000 less. They have to keep the pecking order across the lineup. The whole 911 family is expertly configured to suck maximum money out of our pockets.
- Patrick
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I never brought up the Turbo S. I used the plain jane Turbo as it is the next logical progression up the 911 ladder (though you could make the case that the GTS customer might more likely view the GT3 as a more logical progression but now that the GTS is turbocharged, I see it the other way).
If we accept that a stock GTS is a 475bhp car, there is not much separating it from the 540bhp Turbo out in the real world in terms of real performance. The GTS would be around 7 lb/hp and the Turbo around 6.7 lb/hp. The Turbo will, however, significantly lighten the driver's wallet to the tune of some $40,000 over the GTS. The Turbo S takes out and additional $30,000 over that.
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To say that we use peak hp to "suck the money" out of customers is a pretty unfair statement. When you drive a car (especially a turbocharged car) with GIAC software installed in it, not only do you absolutely notice a drastic change in peak power output, but you also notice the smoothness and consistency of the power delivery throughout the entire rev range, which is something we spend a lot of time on when we work with GIAC to develop new Porsche software.
I disagree. No aftermarket company provides information useful to the consumer to judge whether the product will fulfill their expectation or individual need. Providing peak numbers or even dyno graphs does not directly convey ANY meaningful change in performance. How about doing some testing with your product, and provide comparisons that are meaningful such as roll on acceleration measurements in various gears. The aftermarket is either lazy or prefer to uninform the market. If I'm buying a performance enhancement for real world driving, I want to know what is the effect of the change. Does it produce a measureable effect to throttle response? Measure it. What are the changes in acceleration times from 30 to 50, 50 to 70, 60 to 100, etc. in various gears (as appropriate)? Get out of the lab and do some work. And what about the change to fuel economy and emissions. Full disclosure is ethical and useful information.
True there is always room to make an engine more powerful. The aftermarket doesn't have to be concerned with engine longevity. Porsche and other makes always leave power on the table as they need to up the ante with each new generation. They aren't trying to give the consumer the most tweaked performance available. They are equally constrained by fuel economy and emissions. The best approach is to buy the power you want. Why buy something you feel is inadequate? If you want quicker, then buy quicker. In my personal view, adding more power to my car might make it actually accelerate slower (from zero). It spins up the tires as is during low speed wide open acceleration. Everyone wants high torque these days low in the power band so they can drive in taller gears and get decent acceleration full throttle without changing gears. Lazy! Not me. I'd prefer more in the midrange and on top. When accelerating hard, your rpms skip the entire bottom of the range. Why cater to the lazy?
By no means was any of this targeted to any given aftermarket company, let alone yours. It's all general statements. I'd like to see better out of the aftermarket, including yours. I'm usually quite disappointed and irritated by the lack of meaningful information, which is why I'm rarely an aftermarket consumer. Plus, I just don't see tossing Porsche's engineering aside unless there's supreme confidence a particular aftermarket component is as well engineered. At least when I lived in Germany you could rely on products which were TUV approved as at least the maker went to the effort to have their products certified as safe and quality engineered and manufactured.
I disagree. No aftermarket company provides information useful to the consumer to judge whether the product will fulfill their expectation or individual need. Providing peak numbers or even dyno graphs does not directly convey ANY meaningful change in performance. How about doing some testing with your product, and provide comparisons that are meaningful such as roll on acceleration measurements in various gears. The aftermarket is either lazy or prefer to uninform the market. If I'm buying a performance enhancement for real world driving, I want to know what is the effect of the change. Does it produce a measureable effect to throttle response? Measure it. What are the changes in acceleration times from 30 to 50, 50 to 70, 60 to 100, etc. in various gears (as appropriate)? Get out of the lab and do some work. And what about the change to fuel economy and emissions. Full disclosure is ethical and useful information.
Luckily, there are tools available to the public that allow you to measure all the performance metrics you mentioned above (although most people feel the difference within 5 minutes). A few days behind the wheel will answer most questions. And if for some reason you're not happy, we can always remove the software altogether and return the car to stock.
Ive had the benefit of the tune on my car and soul performance 200HJS cats...now the temps have been nice at 65-75as well
I dont have any equipment other than the butt meter
car feels like it spools much quicker it feels the 50hp/tq claimed faster as well
much more responsive and the sport cats really deepen the already amazing sound of the GTS
VERY happy thus far with the upgrades
I dont have any equipment other than the butt meter
car feels like it spools much quicker it feels the 50hp/tq claimed faster as well
much more responsive and the sport cats really deepen the already amazing sound of the GTS
VERY happy thus far with the upgrades
If we accept that a stock GTS is a 475bhp car, there is not much separating it from the 540bhp Turbo out in the real world in terms of real performance. The GTS would be around 7 lb/hp and the Turbo around 6.7 lb/hp. The Turbo will, however, significantly lighten the driver's wallet to the tune of some $40,000 over the GTS. The Turbo S takes out and additional $30,000 over that.
I'm genuinely interested to find out. And of course, I know there is a big price vector between them - but it's not entirely unwarranted.
I'm not sure whether to accept the GTS as a 475hp car really. But either way, the standard Turbo puts down around 485whp - again to all four wheels. A 991.2 Turbo runs somewhere around 10.8@128-129mph in good conditions. When we see what a tuned GTS can run, then we'll know. I'm betting that even with the lower weight and RWD advantages (on a sticky tire of course), a GTS still won't catch a Turbo in a straight line.
I'm genuinely interested to find out. And of course, I know there is a big price vector between them - but it's not entirely unwarranted.
I'm genuinely interested to find out. And of course, I know there is a big price vector between them - but it's not entirely unwarranted.
I agree. Having driven both, I think the Turbo S will still pull ahead of the GTS pretty convincingly. There's just something about the way a Turbo S puts power to the ground that is unlike any other car. The AWD and PDK just work together too darn good in the Turbo S!
To me, the GTS with GIAC tune felt very much like a stock 997.2 Turbo S in terms of acceleration and power delivery.
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When we tested and developed this 991.2 GTS software with GIAC over the past few weeks, we spent a lot of time focusing on the area under the curve and while peak hp and tq are always on your mind, it's really the overall delivery of power and consistency throughout the rev range that we really focus on.
To say that we use peak hp to "suck the money" out of customers is a pretty unfair statement. When you drive a car (especially a turbocharged car) with GIAC software installed in it, not only do you absolutely notice a drastic change in peak power output, but you also notice the smoothness and consistency of the power delivery throughout the entire rev range, which is something we spend a lot of time on when we work with GIAC to develop new Porsche software.
To say that we use peak hp to "suck the money" out of customers is a pretty unfair statement. When you drive a car (especially a turbocharged car) with GIAC software installed in it, not only do you absolutely notice a drastic change in peak power output, but you also notice the smoothness and consistency of the power delivery throughout the entire rev range, which is something we spend a lot of time on when we work with GIAC to develop new Porsche software.
The area under the curve- you got it! Calculus...
That's the advantage of these twin-turbo engines- flat torque curves over a wide rev band...
I disagree. No aftermarket company provides information useful to the consumer to judge whether the product will fulfill their expectation or individual need. Providing peak numbers or even dyno graphs does not directly convey ANY meaningful change in performance. How about doing some testing with your product, and provide comparisons that are meaningful such as roll on acceleration measurements in various gears. The aftermarket is either lazy or prefer to uninform the market. If I'm buying a performance enhancement for real world driving, I want to know what is the effect of the change. Does it produce a measureable effect to throttle response? Measure it. What are the changes in acceleration times from 30 to 50, 50 to 70, 60 to 100, etc. in various gears (as appropriate)? Get out of the lab and do some work. And what about the change to fuel economy and emissions. Full disclosure is ethical and useful information.
True there is always room to make an engine more powerful. The aftermarket doesn't have to be concerned with engine longevity. Porsche and other makes always leave power on the table as they need to up the ante with each new generation. They aren't trying to give the consumer the most tweaked performance available. They are equally constrained by fuel economy and emissions. The best approach is to buy the power you want. Why buy something you feel is inadequate? If you want quicker, then buy quicker. In my personal view, adding more power to my car might make it actually accelerate slower (from zero). It spins up the tires as is during low speed wide open acceleration. Everyone wants high torque these days low in the power band so they can drive in taller gears and get decent acceleration full throttle without changing gears. Lazy! Not me. I'd prefer more in the midrange and on top. When accelerating hard, your rpms skip the entire bottom of the range. Why cater to the lazy?
By no means was any of this targeted to any given aftermarket company, let alone yours. It's all general statements. I'd like to see better out of the aftermarket, including yours. I'm usually quite disappointed and irritated by the lack of meaningful information, which is why I'm rarely an aftermarket consumer. Plus, I just don't see tossing Porsche's engineering aside unless there's supreme confidence a particular aftermarket component is as well engineered. At least when I lived in Germany you could rely on products which were TUV approved as at least the maker went to the effort to have their products certified as safe and quality engineered and manufactured.
True there is always room to make an engine more powerful. The aftermarket doesn't have to be concerned with engine longevity. Porsche and other makes always leave power on the table as they need to up the ante with each new generation. They aren't trying to give the consumer the most tweaked performance available. They are equally constrained by fuel economy and emissions. The best approach is to buy the power you want. Why buy something you feel is inadequate? If you want quicker, then buy quicker. In my personal view, adding more power to my car might make it actually accelerate slower (from zero). It spins up the tires as is during low speed wide open acceleration. Everyone wants high torque these days low in the power band so they can drive in taller gears and get decent acceleration full throttle without changing gears. Lazy! Not me. I'd prefer more in the midrange and on top. When accelerating hard, your rpms skip the entire bottom of the range. Why cater to the lazy?
By no means was any of this targeted to any given aftermarket company, let alone yours. It's all general statements. I'd like to see better out of the aftermarket, including yours. I'm usually quite disappointed and irritated by the lack of meaningful information, which is why I'm rarely an aftermarket consumer. Plus, I just don't see tossing Porsche's engineering aside unless there's supreme confidence a particular aftermarket component is as well engineered. At least when I lived in Germany you could rely on products which were TUV approved as at least the maker went to the effort to have their products certified as safe and quality engineered and manufactured.
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Every 991.2 with the 3.0L engine produces more power than Porsche claims. They don't want buyers to pass on the 550hp Turbo because the GTS makes 475hp for $50,000 less. They have to keep the pecking order across the lineup. The whole 911 family is expertly configured to suck maximum money out of our pockets.
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Posts: 210
From: Florida
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I never brought up the Turbo S. I used the plain jane Turbo as it is the next logical progression up the 911 ladder (though you could make the case that the GTS customer might more likely view the GT3 as a more logical progression but now that the GTS is turbocharged, I see it the other way).
If we accept that a stock GTS is a 475bhp car, there is not much separating it from the 540bhp Turbo out in the real world in terms of real performance. The GTS would be around 7 lb/hp and the Turbo around 6.7 lb/hp. The Turbo will, however, significantly lighten the driver's wallet to the tune of some $40,000 over the GTS. The Turbo S takes out and additional $30,000 over that.
If we accept that a stock GTS is a 475bhp car, there is not much separating it from the 540bhp Turbo out in the real world in terms of real performance. The GTS would be around 7 lb/hp and the Turbo around 6.7 lb/hp. The Turbo will, however, significantly lighten the driver's wallet to the tune of some $40,000 over the GTS. The Turbo S takes out and additional $30,000 over that.
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Posts: 210
From: Florida
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I disagree. No aftermarket company provides information useful to the consumer to judge whether the product will fulfill their expectation or individual need. Providing peak numbers or even dyno graphs does not directly convey ANY meaningful change in performance. How about doing some testing with your product, and provide comparisons that are meaningful such as roll on acceleration measurements in various gears. The aftermarket is either lazy or prefer to uninform the market. If I'm buying a performance enhancement for real world driving, I want to know what is the effect of the change. Does it produce a measureable effect to throttle response? Measure it. What are the changes in acceleration times from 30 to 50, 50 to 70, 60 to 100, etc. in various gears (as appropriate)? Get out of the lab and do some work. And what about the change to fuel economy and emissions. Full disclosure is ethical and useful information.
True there is always room to make an engine more powerful. The aftermarket doesn't have to be concerned with engine longevity. Porsche and other makes always leave power on the table as they need to up the ante with each new generation. They aren't trying to give the consumer the most tweaked performance available. They are equally constrained by fuel economy and emissions. The best approach is to buy the power you want. Why buy something you feel is inadequate? If you want quicker, then buy quicker. In my personal view, adding more power to my car might make it actually accelerate slower (from zero). It spins up the tires as is during low speed wide open acceleration. Everyone wants high torque these days low in the power band so they can drive in taller gears and get decent acceleration full throttle without changing gears. Lazy! Not me. I'd prefer more in the midrange and on top. When accelerating hard, your rpms skip the entire bottom of the range. Why cater to the lazy?
By no means was any of this targeted to any given aftermarket company, let alone yours. It's all general statements. I'd like to see better out of the aftermarket, including yours. I'm usually quite disappointed and irritated by the lack of meaningful information, which is why I'm rarely an aftermarket consumer. Plus, I just don't see tossing Porsche's engineering aside unless there's supreme confidence a particular aftermarket component is as well engineered. At least when I lived in Germany you could rely on products which were TUV approved as at least the maker went to the effort to have their products certified as safe and quality engineered and manufactured.
True there is always room to make an engine more powerful. The aftermarket doesn't have to be concerned with engine longevity. Porsche and other makes always leave power on the table as they need to up the ante with each new generation. They aren't trying to give the consumer the most tweaked performance available. They are equally constrained by fuel economy and emissions. The best approach is to buy the power you want. Why buy something you feel is inadequate? If you want quicker, then buy quicker. In my personal view, adding more power to my car might make it actually accelerate slower (from zero). It spins up the tires as is during low speed wide open acceleration. Everyone wants high torque these days low in the power band so they can drive in taller gears and get decent acceleration full throttle without changing gears. Lazy! Not me. I'd prefer more in the midrange and on top. When accelerating hard, your rpms skip the entire bottom of the range. Why cater to the lazy?
By no means was any of this targeted to any given aftermarket company, let alone yours. It's all general statements. I'd like to see better out of the aftermarket, including yours. I'm usually quite disappointed and irritated by the lack of meaningful information, which is why I'm rarely an aftermarket consumer. Plus, I just don't see tossing Porsche's engineering aside unless there's supreme confidence a particular aftermarket component is as well engineered. At least when I lived in Germany you could rely on products which were TUV approved as at least the maker went to the effort to have their products certified as safe and quality engineered and manufactured.
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Ive had the benefit of the tune on my car and soul performance 200HJS cats...now the temps have been nice at 65-75as well
I dont have any equipment other than the butt meter
car feels like it spools much quicker it feels the 50hp/tq claimed faster as well
much more responsive and the sport cats really deepen the already amazing sound of the GTS
VERY happy thus far with the upgrades
I dont have any equipment other than the butt meter
car feels like it spools much quicker it feels the 50hp/tq claimed faster as well
much more responsive and the sport cats really deepen the already amazing sound of the GTS
VERY happy thus far with the upgrades
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I don't think you can take on the GT3 in track relevant situations without some more aero.
The sportdesign front skirt is probably OK, but in the back you'd want something like the 991.1 aerokit cup wing at least. The diffuser on the non-GT 991 also looks like it could use an upgrade.
Lower drag on the GTS, though.
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