wow i want the same setup

 

awsome numbers

 

Not looking to R&C, just wanted to know which turbos were responsible for the numbers for comparison's sake. Congrats, it sounds like you've created something really special here.

Perhaps someone can chime in here because I think I'm confused:

Assumptions:
1) What is the maximum cost effective horsepower for a k16? 520-530hp at the crank with intake, exhaust, etc included. Any more than this and you would simply jump to a k24 for a more cost effective solution, right?
2) What's the max cost effective horsepower for a k24? 580-600hp at the crank with intake, exhaust, etc included. Above these figures you begin to take it to the next level-what ever that is...

Given the above, how can a k16/24 produce more than a k24? I thought these turbos fell between the two in terms of performance, i.e marrying the quicker spool-up of the k16 with the mid-range power of the k24.

I realize that the turbos being talked about here have been specially crafted and are likely far more than k16/24s (again, congrats), but even so doesn't the "k16" part of the equation hold you back, at least below the level of what a k24 can do?

I don't want to be flamed or start something here, I'm just looking to be informed given that I'm looking for similar upgrades. I've seen many posts with people estimating hybrid horsepower numbers (including this one) well above what I believe k24s can deliver-am I underestimating the potential for the k24? If the hybrids in fact fall between the two are people using the k24s for +700hp cars? Can someone explain?

 

Bluecuda,
I wanted to post todays happenings. I went to Switzers to drop of a wiper plug(thanks Eric) for my Seal Grey and Tym asks me if I want to hold his laptop in the passenger seat of a couple of cars (also GT RUS's monster 997tt Tip build)...I of course said hell yeah! I just can't believe how strong this TT is and how quiet she is when not driving on throttle. Really a great daily set up! It also ran a strong low 8 sec 60-130...and it was like 92'F and 100% humidity. Congrats Bluecuda, she is rock solid!

 

I'm jealous Evoviiyou!!! I so want to get her back and feel what you guys are describing

As for manalex's post, I have no idea!! I do know that with my car, I wasn't so much concerned about maximum HP's as I was where it developed the power. I think the max HP at the wheels on the dyno was like 564ish with this setup, so that would be a little over 600 at the crank, but the thing that has me really excited is that the car really responds more like a stock 996TT and doesn't need to hit 7k RPM's to develop a lot of torque and horsepower. Also, this is running the stock fuel system, stock manifold, ect... Basically it's exhaust, headers, DV's, turbo upgrades and a tune, which hopefully will keep my dollar investment low.

I believe I'm correct is stating that the setup I have now is almost max for what the stock fuel system can deliver, so unless I upgrade the fuel pumps,fuel rails, and the turbos, I'm not going to get much more out of this vehicle. The big upside to the bigger turbos is that they have much more potential to develop those big HP numbers once you do these kinds of upgrades to the fuel system. Course, you're also putting your car at risk if you don't start doing bottom end upgrades to the engine with the bigger HP numbers as well..... You open up a whole can of worms when you start getting up in the high, HIGH HP numbers.

 

WOW.....awesome work Tym

I also wonder how u compare it with stock K24's and K24/18g's cars?

 

the 18g car would smoke the k24's up top by a good bit.

 

Alex, I'm jumping in here, only because you and I have been on the same track together, and you've seen my car perform with a woefully slipping clutch kit, and the video shows me disappear into the distance...

My car has K16/24s. I've got older units from UMW, not the Zero clearance units he is now selling, so I don't even had the best of the best... Not sure what Switzer is doing with his K16 hybrids, but it sounds like he's got a good combo... Here is what I understand the K16/24 setup to be:

The K16/24 with tuning from UMW (which is who I have and all I can speak to) will spool faster, and sooner, with the advantage of less lag than K24s. The advantage it has there, it will give up in larger power up top. Kevin at UMW claims that the package I have is good for between 530-550WHEEL HP (rear wheel) and 570-590#ft. of torque as he has seen on his dynos. He has emphasised that proper cooling at the radiators and the intercoolers must be optimum for you to see these numbers, and recommends removing the rear bumper to see this range of power. With his 100Octane race file (Which I've only run once at the track) youll see an additional 30-40ish bump in those numbers at the wheels, again dependant on the ability to get cold air in where it counts. Therse are Kevin's claims, so please go straight to him guys. I haven't dyno'ed the car with these numbers and can only speak in terms of how the car performs on road courses.

My data logging with the durametric shows that I'm maxed out in the fuel department... I initially saw 96% duty cycle on the system right after I installed the software and 5 bar FPR, but now I see 91-92%. So I'm assuming there was some "learning" going on, and I've also since replaced the old plugs with newer, proper units... That also brought the % down a little. That said, the K16/24s will run out of power sooner. The K24s will be laggy on the bottom of the rev range, but will make it up on top. You've seen my car run, and had I been able to have a properly functioning clutch, Tom Kerr and I would have been much more evenly matched at VIR. As it was, I couldn't make the car hook up because the clutch issues that have since been resolved. Now we'll never know as Tom has made some serious mods and lightened the car even more... If he ever comes back to VIR, I'll have to be on my game and be running race gas to have a prayor!

It's my understanding that depending on the tuner, you can expect over 500 WHEEL HP/TORQUE with a K16/24 setup, and there are a number of us here that have proven that... I ran 127mph/11.24s with my upsolute tune, which was what I've call more of a K24 setup... Very laggy and unresponsive on the bottom half of the rev range, and then very "awake" from 4500RPMs on... and that was with K16/24s, same setup I have now, with 3.6 bar FPR and stock wastegates. That setup dyno'ed 510 Wheel HP and 532#ft. torque.

So the question you need to answer is where do you want to make your power, and how much do you "need"? For track days I can't imagine more than 600-650 crank HP being needed to get the job done... More money/time/setup in the braking and handling departments will pay better rewards on a road course.

Mike

 

Thanks for the response Mike. Looking forward to running with you again at VIR, hopefully this year, but more likely next year. I promise not to hold you up any more than I did last time!

Forgetting for a minute about how you want to deliver the power, i.e. quicker spool-up v. a later but more sustained delivery, are you saying that you will get more PEAK HP and torque out of your K16/24 than you will out of a plain k24-all other thinkgs being equal?
This is the part that's confuses me-looking at a K16 and the k24, the differences between the compressor sides appear minimal. The turbine side is another story-differences are much greater. So I always thought the limiting factor with ALL k16 hybrids was the turbine side of the equation. That is, the turbine side would spin and begin to lose efficiency long before the larger compressor wheel would have time to hit it's full potential. Hense you get to the peak horsepower faster, but it's a smaller number than what the original k24 set-up would deliver.

Don't mean hijack this post...

 

Manalex: I welcome all discussions in this post. I, like you, always strive for more information related to these cars. I'm like a blank slate and keep reading and reading trying to figure out what is available, worthwhile, and cost effective.

 

Alex, What I'm saying is that K24s are "supposed" to make more PEAK HP.

I believe the K16/24 Hybrid will make quicker power, but be limited to at or below 600 Wheel HP.

My combination is supposed to make 530-550 WHEEL HP on 93 Octane and 560-590 WHEEL HP on 100 Octane, according to Kevin, if you follow his advice on proper fan placement and proper number of fans used.

K24s will always flow more, and make more power because of that, but I'm not sure where that limit lies... Apparently the K16/24 Hybrid Limit is the OEM fuel system, and beyond that, the limits of the smaller housing/compressor combo. In short, the K16/24 will NOT make more peak power.

However, I believe that below the curve, the K16/24 will make power faster. Then the K24s will "catch" up and overtake the K16/24 with the right combo of components and tune.

Something else to consider... Although the sizes in question are minimal, I think in terms of how the components are used. I think if you took a K16 hybrid from a specific tuner, and a K24 setup from that same tuner, You'd see the K24 make more PEAK HP, but suffer from lag. As Kevin recently told Mike from Austrailia (Mike called me on Wednesday to chat about this very subject) You can not get around the lag of the K24, incomparison to the K16/24 Hybrid. You CAN make more power to compensate.

I guess it all depends on what you want to do with the car... Drag racers would probably love more PEAK HP, where road racers want to be able to put what they have down quicker.

Mike

 

Great thread, and impressive #s on that setup.

What are you guys using for drivetrain loss % on the dyno to derive crank #s? Different for AWD or RWD I assume?

thanks

 

I'm not sure I completely agree with the "lag" comment on the K24s. The K24 may not spool up as quickly as its smaller cousin, but I certainly would not describe it as a lag. A good tuner can certainly make a K24 car come alive very quickly. I've read it before on this forum, "no one ever complains about the lag of a GT2." Granted slightly different setup, but K24s just the same.

Also, keep in mind that the turbo's sweet spot begins at around 4k RPM. Keeping it in the sweet range (not that difficult on the track) eliminates all the lag one would experience, with the exception of some key corners on select tracks of course. LWFW helps too.

All that said, I'm going the hybrid route myself. At this point the hybrids will provide the most economical route for additional HP on the track without exceeding my driving capabilities (at least I hope so).

Of course, going faster usually means you need to brake better (or should I say cooler)-that's why I've subscribed to your brake thread...

Thanks Mike and thanks Bluecuda...

 

the limitation of the k24/18g turbochargers is the fuel system. with this k16 hybrid turbo setup, tym can maximize the response of the turbos as well as use the stock fuel system to maximum capacity. therefore, if you are running the stock fuel system, this is really the ideal combination. nice setup! i think you will be very pleasantly suprised.

 

hey Tym if you dont mind me asking what kind of boost was this on? I'm very impressed with those numbers on pump gas, Judging by the dyno it looks like you are controlling boost with the stock n75? looks as if you are Ramping the boost up as the rpm goes up (hince the low tq numbers) which is smart give's is a nice curve that's liner. Cant tell by the pic are you still using stock TIP's?

Chris Green