No, he means "on". Like I said...personal preference. No one is "right", and everyone is "right".

Besides the basics for a newbie, all driving style is what makes YOU the most comfortable, and the fastest (within your desired limits). It is like shuffle steering. I took PDE and those guys (including Doc Bundy) said definitely DO shuffle steer. It helps keep your arms more centered, which gives finer control over steering input, and helps keep you planted in the seat. Conversely, EVERY PCA instructor at DEs I have has a cow if I shuffle steer at all, and this includes some VERY fast drivers who have been doing it forever. Opinions are like a$$holes...everyone has them.

The funny thing is back on FCO 996TT's forum, I once got roasted alive for driving (on an admittedly wet track when the TT was still new to me) WITHOUT PSM, and here the guy gets nothing but grief for driving with it ON.

 

Drive it the way you want to cause it's yours. Not every one is going is trying to become a race car driver, some guys just want to drive real fast and not get impounded. For some its just a day of fun as long as they are being safe on the track and not hurting anyone PSM off or on why does it matter. I have driven both ways and I agree I prefer PSM off by why flame a guy that wants it on...

 

I don't consider this flaming, and there is a reason why traction control is bad for not just your own learning, but also other drivers around you in your run group, and I'll tell you why.

My post in page two has a good example of PSM not being able to save you, such as oversteer induced by momentum and not by over enthusiastic right foot on the go pedal.

So, let me present you with this scenario.

You have always driven with PSM on, which by the way, is working to save you even when you can't feel it. Now, after a few years of DE, and with the help of PSM, you start feeling pretty good about your driving. Now, let's say that you are running with the fast group, and because you never learned basic RWD car control, and the back end got away from you, and PSM somehow wasn't able to save it, and off you go.

Then you take out another guy's car in the fast group.

I have personally observed this inexcusable lack of basic RWD car control by a guy who, because he drove with traction control on and ascended to the fast group never knowing basic RWD car control, and proceeded to wreck his car because the back end got away, and he did not even know what to do. HE LIFTED when the back end came out for crying out loud.

He was lucky, he took out his own car and no one else's. What if this lack of RWD car control cause him to take ME out on the track?

Chew on this.

 

PSM is usually pretty noticable, I have found, and I have always heard. It intrudes in a BIG way, plus the little yellow light comes on.

stuka, do you know differently?

 

Dude -- You are so confused about PSM that your silly single strawman doesn't merit a response. I am not a danger to anyone on the track. I am in the slow group. I let everybody pass on the straights. I have never gone off the track in 11 days at Laguna Seca, ButtonWillow and Willow Springs. The rare times that PSM has kicked in, I knew it, and tried to figure out what I did wrong – with an instructor.

Your patently false advice about PSM on the track is, frankly, dangerous and ignorant to those of us just trying to get a little experience on the track.

 

Stuka's just trying to help you and I get to the fast group faster. 11 days with PSM and instructor is too long

 

I don't believe that I have been flaming you. And as someone who is in the fast group with more than 26 days at Sears Point, Laguna Seca, Thunder Hill, Vegas, and Button Willow altogether, and 11 of them at Button Willow alone, I find it funny that you should be the one telling me that I don't know what I am talking about with regards to PSM.

The fact that you are in slow group means that this is the time to learn RWD 101 while the stakes are not quite as high as it can be once you are in the fast group. And PSM is working even when the light is not blinking, try driving with it off. Hmm, car sure seems a lot more wiggly now, doesn't it? Wiggle your steering wheel left/right quickly a few times (not too many degrees so you don't get the pendulum momentum going like I did in page 2), see how the back feels like it wants to come out?

And I am glad that with your attitude that you are in the slow group, and have no chance of running into me or other guys in the fast group. Most guys in the fast group expect the other drivers to be able to control the car, and trust me, there will be a time when PSM can't save you, what happens next depends entirely on you. I know if it were me, I would hate to be that guy in the fast group who lifted and just froze when the back end came around because he never learned RWD 101. And BTW, he was lucky that the car behind him was able to avoid T-boning him once he shot back onto the track after slamming into the tirewall sideways from his lack of basic RWD 101 skills.

Drive safely.

 

>>And PSM is working even when the light is not blinking, try driving with it off.

This is the first I have heard this. I will have to try the "wiggle your butt" experiment... safely of course. I always drive with PSM ON on the street. Haven't tracked the TT that much (prefer the Boxster, actually), but when I did, I had PSM OFF.

This seems odd, as why have a light to show PSM is active if it doesn't always come on when PSM is active? It also seems against Porsche's drivers focus to be twiddling with the car in subtle, "unadvertised" ways.

I guess it might make sense if the "intrusion" were so quick that it did not have time to activate the light. Hmmm...

Going to ask the local tech types...

 

Got this from someone off the local PCA listserver:

A summary of a technical article on PSM I read several years ago:

With PSM on, it intervenes it the slip angle is greater then 7 degrees.

With PSM off, if intervenes if the slip angle is greater than 7
degrees --- if your foot is on the brake pedal.

Is it noticable? Sometimes. It depends on how much correction is
applied. It can be brief enough that you won't notice the light
flashing. Or it can be noisy (pumps) and seat-of-the-pants noticable.

So from this, if PSM is off, it does not sound like it will intrude unless you are panicing...braking with a high slip angle...or trail braking to try to get the car to rotate.

7 degree slip angle...how significant is that?

 

Why? The C4S is still waaaaay slower than a Tiptronic S turbo.

I have a 02' TT with Tiptronic and I think that you have to _learn_ how to work effectively with the Tiptronic for okay track results. It's not as bad as everybody thinks and in most daily driving situations it's just so much more comfortable to have a Tiptronic.

The TT has all the power you need (especially at low revs), to have fun with an automatic transmission. And the combination of PSM, 4WD and Tiptronic simply makes sense.

I think that the 996 TT is the only 911, where the tiptronic fits the character of the car. IMHO a C2, C4, C4S etc. (thank god that it's not even available for a GT3 or GT2) would simply suck with a Tiptronic.

 

That's an interesting data point. Willow is a pretty decent HP track. But, it's also got areas where momentum is very important. I would have thought the Turbo would be slightly faster. But, it would be close.

Personally, having owned both, I prefer the GT3. But, I have raced SCCA/NASA/Grand Am/etc for about 8 years running. So, I kind of self select into more of a light weight handling oriented car. That just suits my personality better.

Here's the best way that I can describe it, and maybe help you with your decision. On the way home (AZ) from picking up the GT3 in Carlbsbad (So. Cal), I drove 80 mph on the straights. On the one section of winding mountain roads, I actually sped up to a connsistent 100 mph for about 20 miles. After getting out of the twisties, I slowed back down to 80.

If you'd do the same as me (100 in the twisties and 80 on the straights), you'd prefer the GT3.

If you would have driven 80 in the twisties, and 100 in the straights, buy the turbo.

 

I think it is hard to generalize because there are a variety of variables that will impact whether or not 7 degrees is "significant". By significant, I assume you mean "will it slow me down on the track."

For the vast majority of drivers, I don't think PSM will slow them down. In fact, the feedback it provides might actually make many drivers faster by subtly telling them when they are driving fast in an area where they should be going slow. (The most important thing to learn on a road couse is where to go slow... and where to go fast. Once you learn where to go slow, you'll be faster overall, and safer to boot.)

Another thing that I will say about PSM is that it is the best traction control system I have experienced. From my butt-o-meter, which is pretty well calibrated from 8 years of road racing, PSM is pretty much ideal for your average driver in the 996TT. It allows you enough slip angle to have fun and learn, but not so much that you can get into trouble unexpectedly.

My butt-o-meter says that PSM *will* slow down a very experienced driver. I always turn off the PSM in the 996TT as a result. I can feel it intervening in places that I would like to drive a slightly higher slip angle. But, I don't really think that it is a good idea to learn about higher slip angles in a $100,000+ car.

Yours in speed.

 

So true. For me at least in a TT, I'm either too hot going into a corner, or not throwing it away in a throw-away corner. Going fast on the straights is never a problem

That is so true too I do believe if you're not willing to crash it, then you're not really racing it. That's why indoor go-kart is so much fun because you're not worried about crashing it.

 

It takes a lot of seat time. I think it took me about a year in which I did Bondurant, followed by 12 monthly autocrosses and maybe 6 SCCA road race weekends before I really got it. That said, there are some people who are just naturals and they get it within a few weekends. (I hate those people! ) After that commitment, I was finally running in the top three of a class that typically had 20-25 identical cars in each race. But, it really does take commitment.

That is so true too I do believe if you're not willing to crash it, then you're not really racing it. That's why indoor go-kart is so much fun because you're not worried about crashing it. [/QUOTE]

That's definitely true with repsect to a racecar. You have to be willing to throw it away. That said, for me, a successul race is one in which I do not crash or have any contact (other than a love tap). Once I changed my priorities to (1) no contact/crashing, (2) respect the car, then (3) finishing position, I found that I finished just as well, but ended up having a lot more fun. For a time before that, racing had become like a job and it wasn't fun any more. I was always worried about winning and nothing else. Lost sight of why I started racing. But, after taking a year off, I changed my attitude and the fun came back, 10X over.

In fact, last season was the best I've ever had. I had only one minor mishap when, at the start of a 2 hour enduro, this guy with more money than ability decided to spin in the first corner of the first lap. I avoided the spinner, but another guy just barely clipped the side marker and fender. Luckily, it was a small indentation that I could pull out myself. And the only damage was to a $25 part. That was a successful season. NO (significant) DAMAGE at all, and plenty of really fun, close racing. And I even ran one Grand Am Cup race. I figured for sure someone would have hit me hard there!

Even though I didn't have any crashes last year, I still had to be willing to drive it at the limiits, close to other cars, where in the past, I have had crashes. I've had a car totaled (another driver spun and took out the pack), hit the tire wall once myself (driver error), got t-boned in a corner in the rain (guy lost it), and had plenty of minor fender benders...

For what it's worth, these incidents all happened when I was racing a cheap car (Spec RX7). I've noticed that, the more expensive the car, typically the more people drive a bit more gentlemanly. So, I'm very careful when passing cheap cars now.

I love indoor karting too. Although, honestly, the fun for me is actually staying clean and lettng everyone else take one another out or make mistakes. That worked great last time I went. This only works if they give you enough laps to go around for say 10 min or so. Given 10 minutes, most drivers at a karting track will make at least one mistake. The most fun race I ever had at a karting track was a random Saturday when I just showed up to have fun. I qualified second and had a great dual with another guy I just met. Mid-way through he made a tiny error and I jumped undereath for a pass. The rest of the way he hounded me like a dog and somehow I avoided making any mistakes myself(probably the only time in my life ). Good thing it was 10 minute race as, by the 11th minute, I'm sure I would have given the lead back to him. Any way, it turned out, the other guy was a Formula Ford racer. Makes sense. He raced clean and we never touched. And, he would have beaten me if not for that one tiny mistake that allowed me to slot in beside him.

If you like indoor karting, try shifter karts. Those things are amazing. The acceleration and grip is like nothing else. It's tough on a body over 40 like mine. But, man, a half day of shifter kart fun is worth every minute of the 2 day bed rest that the over 40 body will need on the backend.

Man, don't get me started on racing. I can't shut up. Today will be the first day back at the track since my daughter Kate was born. Haven't been in the racecar since June and it's driving me crazy! Today is just a practice day. But, man, I am I stoked!

The speed addict gets his fix!

Yours in speed.

 

sorry to thread jack a bit above. My $0.02, you can't go wrong with either car. There is not enough difference in terms of measurabl perfomance statistics to say one is better than the other. It's just a matter of personal preference.

The 996TT is best for people who want the low end torque and driver aid.

The GT3 is better for those that like the feel of a lighter weight, rear engined /RWD vehicle and are not concerned about the lack of driver aid.

I like the GT3 best because it challenges me where I like to be challenged - in the corners. I love the instant response from the steering wheel. And the feedback it gives me lets me know instantly how well I just took the corner. Also, I don't really like the feel of driver aids. (I always turned it off on the 996TT).

The 996TT is more responsive under throttle, but less responsive in corners. Also, even nwith PSM off, it still doesn't give you the same feedback as the GT3. Indeed, the AWD covers up your mistakes even without the PSM on. If you have the most fun on the straights, then the 996TT is by far the better car for what you will do with it. For what it is worth, I suck at drag racing. So, what the 996 can do in a straight line was largely wasted by my poor drag racing abilities. I've never spent any time learning it, so, I suck at it. That's the nature of all types of racing. Be committed to it with time, effort and moey, or suck.