Engine Rebuild - what to change
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of course i guess that logic could be used for the 10/12mm discussion that has carried on for a good bit now!
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Well I'm sure there has been many engines that have been taken apart for upgrades by shops to install upgrades that didn't turn out well but that doesn't stop us from modifying these engines .Think of the engines that have been damaged by inexperienced techs just performing a simple oil change because they were unaware the oil tank needed to be drained and as a result overfill the oil.This doesn't stop us from changing our oil. My point is anything can be fubar when put in the wrong hands by inexperienced technicians but if sent to a qualified shop a 12mm stud install should be no problem.I am just trying to help those who are building these engines from my experience in going through the learning process to make power reliably .I have no dog in this fight and don't own a shop or sell parts but have been through the process several times and can't stand to watch attrition.
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Well I'm sure there has been many engines that have been taken apart for upgrades by shops to install upgrades that didn't turn out well but that doesn't stop us from modifying these engines .Think of the engines that have been damaged by inexperienced techs just performing a simple oil change because they were unaware the oil tank needed to be drained and as a result overfill the oil.This doesn't stop us from changing our oil. My point is anything can be fubar when put in the wrong hands by inexperienced technicians but if sent to a qualified shop a 12mm stud install should be no problem.I am just trying to help those who are building these engines from my experience in going through the learning process to make power reliably .I have no dog in this fight and don't own a shop or sell parts but have been through the process several times and can't stand to watch attrition.
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From my buddies engine builder....
"I have read with some interest and despair what has being written about certain head studs made by ARP "
Like this one.
You sir, are what makes the internet so powerful. If it’s on the internet it must be true! Doesn’t matter that is void of facts or engineering data. I hope sir, you are good at whatever you do and you don’t make your living building high performance engines.
We have used ARP fasteners for many years. All of the connecting Rods we design and have made come with ARP bolts. All of the head studs we use are made to our design by ARP. We were the first to offer a 12.00mm stud and were the first to develop the 10.00mm x 12.00mm head stud. We developed the Head gasket system that uses a steel O ring to seal the combustion chamber.
But what was not copied was the engineering input into each of these parts. Engineering and an understanding of what is required is often not considered. This is a common trait in this business. Assemblers assembling 1000HP engines with no engineering understanding or common sense.
Maybe the head studs in question were never designed for the application in which they supposedly failed? Choice of stud design, the material spec’ed out and the components they hold together are all very important considerations. Saying that ARP studs are garbage is stupid and ignorant. Ever considered they hold together engines used in Top Fuel and Funny car’s? Your engine is a “big wheel” compared to those engines. The difference, those engines are designed and built by smart people.
Common sense and logic should give you some clues on what may be happening here. Ever considered the difference in the strength of steel under tensile stretch verses aluminum under compression? The parts that are changed are always to blame.
Many factors come into play here. The tensile strength of the stud, its design and material. The material it is anchored in, the way it was assembled and the parts they hold together. Here are some of the bad assembly practices I have seen in the past.
1. The wrong choice of material. Most don’t ever consider this or calculate the cylinder pressure that will be present. Most don’t even know how to calculate this.
2. The wrong design for the application. Thread type, and the friction forces involved.
3. Poor assembly. The use of Loctite and the studs bottomed out in the bores, wrong installation and tightening procedures. Zero consideration of the frictional forces at work here.
4. The wrong thread specification in the block/case used with the stud thread type.
5. Cylinder Head heat treatment and hardness. Did the stud actually stretch or did the head collapse inwards around the stud hole.
For as long as I can remember, it is never a human issue but always a component issue problem. There is a saying, “there is never enough money to do it right the first time, but always enough to do it a second time”.
Neil Harvey
Performance Developments
"I have read with some interest and despair what has being written about certain head studs made by ARP "
Like this one.
Do not use arp studs they are garbage!You have been warned!My motor was the first to have a set of 12mm head studs on it and they were developed initially for my car by Evoms back in 2008.Before that with the ARP we either had to limit the power(torque) the motor made or it was just a matter of time.The torque is what u need to worry about so if you are building a motor focused on torque then you are even more at risk !Put a good set of 12 mm head studs and never look back.
We have used ARP fasteners for many years. All of the connecting Rods we design and have made come with ARP bolts. All of the head studs we use are made to our design by ARP. We were the first to offer a 12.00mm stud and were the first to develop the 10.00mm x 12.00mm head stud. We developed the Head gasket system that uses a steel O ring to seal the combustion chamber.
But what was not copied was the engineering input into each of these parts. Engineering and an understanding of what is required is often not considered. This is a common trait in this business. Assemblers assembling 1000HP engines with no engineering understanding or common sense.
Maybe the head studs in question were never designed for the application in which they supposedly failed? Choice of stud design, the material spec’ed out and the components they hold together are all very important considerations. Saying that ARP studs are garbage is stupid and ignorant. Ever considered they hold together engines used in Top Fuel and Funny car’s? Your engine is a “big wheel” compared to those engines. The difference, those engines are designed and built by smart people.
Common sense and logic should give you some clues on what may be happening here. Ever considered the difference in the strength of steel under tensile stretch verses aluminum under compression? The parts that are changed are always to blame.
Many factors come into play here. The tensile strength of the stud, its design and material. The material it is anchored in, the way it was assembled and the parts they hold together. Here are some of the bad assembly practices I have seen in the past.
1. The wrong choice of material. Most don’t ever consider this or calculate the cylinder pressure that will be present. Most don’t even know how to calculate this.
2. The wrong design for the application. Thread type, and the friction forces involved.
3. Poor assembly. The use of Loctite and the studs bottomed out in the bores, wrong installation and tightening procedures. Zero consideration of the frictional forces at work here.
4. The wrong thread specification in the block/case used with the stud thread type.
5. Cylinder Head heat treatment and hardness. Did the stud actually stretch or did the head collapse inwards around the stud hole.
For as long as I can remember, it is never a human issue but always a component issue problem. There is a saying, “there is never enough money to do it right the first time, but always enough to do it a second time”.
Neil Harvey
Performance Developments
Banned
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,551
From: tn
Rep Power: 628
From my buddies engine builder....
"I have read with some interest and despair what has being written about certain head studs made by ARP "
Like this one.
You sir, are what makes the internet so powerful. If it’s on the internet it must be true! Doesn’t matter that is void of facts or engineering data. I hope sir, you are good at whatever you do and you don’t make your living building high performance engines.
We have used ARP fasteners for many years. All of the connecting Rods we design and have made come with ARP bolts. All of the head studs we use are made to our design by ARP. We were the first to offer a 12.00mm stud and were the first to develop the 10.00mm x 12.00mm head stud. We developed the Head gasket system that uses a steel O ring to seal the combustion chamber.
But what was not copied was the engineering input into each of these parts. Engineering and an understanding of what is required is often not considered. This is a common trait in this business. Assemblers assembling 1000HP engines with no engineering understanding or common sense.
Maybe the head studs in question were never designed for the application in which they supposedly failed? Choice of stud design, the material spec’ed out and the components they hold together are all very important considerations. Saying that ARP studs are garbage is stupid and ignorant. Ever considered they hold together engines used in Top Fuel and Funny car’s? Your engine is a “big wheel” compared to those engines. The difference, those engines are designed and built by smart people.
Common sense and logic should give you some clues on what may be happening here. Ever considered the difference in the strength of steel under tensile stretch verses aluminum under compression? The parts that are changed are always to blame.
Many factors come into play here. The tensile strength of the stud, its design and material. The material it is anchored in, the way it was assembled and the parts they hold together. Here are some of the bad assembly practices I have seen in the past.
1. The wrong choice of material. Most don’t ever consider this or calculate the cylinder pressure that will be present. Most don’t even know how to calculate this.
2. The wrong design for the application. Thread type, and the friction forces involved.
3. Poor assembly. The use of Loctite and the studs bottomed out in the bores, wrong installation and tightening procedures. Zero consideration of the frictional forces at work here.
4. The wrong thread specification in the block/case used with the stud thread type.
5. Cylinder Head heat treatment and hardness. Did the stud actually stretch or did the head collapse inwards around the stud hole.
For as long as I can remember, it is never a human issue but always a component issue problem. There is a saying, “there is never enough money to do it right the first time, but always enough to do it a second time”.
Neil Harvey
Performance Developments
"I have read with some interest and despair what has being written about certain head studs made by ARP "
Like this one.
You sir, are what makes the internet so powerful. If it’s on the internet it must be true! Doesn’t matter that is void of facts or engineering data. I hope sir, you are good at whatever you do and you don’t make your living building high performance engines.
We have used ARP fasteners for many years. All of the connecting Rods we design and have made come with ARP bolts. All of the head studs we use are made to our design by ARP. We were the first to offer a 12.00mm stud and were the first to develop the 10.00mm x 12.00mm head stud. We developed the Head gasket system that uses a steel O ring to seal the combustion chamber.
But what was not copied was the engineering input into each of these parts. Engineering and an understanding of what is required is often not considered. This is a common trait in this business. Assemblers assembling 1000HP engines with no engineering understanding or common sense.
Maybe the head studs in question were never designed for the application in which they supposedly failed? Choice of stud design, the material spec’ed out and the components they hold together are all very important considerations. Saying that ARP studs are garbage is stupid and ignorant. Ever considered they hold together engines used in Top Fuel and Funny car’s? Your engine is a “big wheel” compared to those engines. The difference, those engines are designed and built by smart people.
Common sense and logic should give you some clues on what may be happening here. Ever considered the difference in the strength of steel under tensile stretch verses aluminum under compression? The parts that are changed are always to blame.
Many factors come into play here. The tensile strength of the stud, its design and material. The material it is anchored in, the way it was assembled and the parts they hold together. Here are some of the bad assembly practices I have seen in the past.
1. The wrong choice of material. Most don’t ever consider this or calculate the cylinder pressure that will be present. Most don’t even know how to calculate this.
2. The wrong design for the application. Thread type, and the friction forces involved.
3. Poor assembly. The use of Loctite and the studs bottomed out in the bores, wrong installation and tightening procedures. Zero consideration of the frictional forces at work here.
4. The wrong thread specification in the block/case used with the stud thread type.
5. Cylinder Head heat treatment and hardness. Did the stud actually stretch or did the head collapse inwards around the stud hole.
For as long as I can remember, it is never a human issue but always a component issue problem. There is a saying, “there is never enough money to do it right the first time, but always enough to do it a second time”.
Neil Harvey
Performance Developments
yes arp builds components for very high hp engines. in the case of the mezger motor it seems they put as much into developing a stud as the factory did for high hp applications. none
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since arp only supplies a single version of a head said for the porsche motor and several documented failures are present wouldn't it be safe to say that the stud was at fault? the spec would have been from arp, the install sequence from arp and the material used and the lube supplied both from arp.
yes arp builds components for very high hp engines. in the case of the mezger motor it seems they put as much into developing a stud as the factory did for high hp applications. none
yes arp builds components for very high hp engines. in the case of the mezger motor it seems they put as much into developing a stud as the factory did for high hp applications. none
nh
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i had a new set of arp studs for the mezger. they give zero specs on the packaging or the website. the other manufacturers of studs at least give some info on their websites. and yes they will make them to your specs. how many engine builders actually know what spec to order? from any car you care to choose, most engine shops rely on the manufacturer to tell them what will work best for their application since this is what they do for a living.
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i had a new set of arp studs for the mezger. they give zero specs on the packaging or the website. the other manufacturers of studs at least give some info on their websites. and yes they will make them to your specs. how many engine builders actually know what spec to order? from any car you care to choose, most engine shops rely on the manufacturer to tell them what will work best for their application since this is what they do for a living.
You hit the nail squarely on the head! This is the difference between an engine builder and an assembler. Those that want to DIY it, the pit falls are many. Don’t blame ARP because you don’t know and under estimated the importance of Cylinder Head fasteners.
ARP actually have a special division that we and most engine builders use for ordering fasteners. We don’t buy “off the shelf” as we design what we need and get the engineering support from those at ARP that are specialist at what they do.
I have a saying I use every day. “there are only two types in this business, those that see it wrong and can fix it, and those that do not see it at all”.
Choose your engine builder wisely.
nh
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,551
From: tn
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You hit the nail squarely on the head! This is the difference between an engine builder and an assembler. Those that want to DIY it, the pit falls are many. Don’t blame ARP because you don’t know and under estimated the importance of Cylinder Head fasteners. ARP actually have a special division that we and most engine builders use for ordering fasteners. We don’t buy “off the shelf” as we design what we need and get the engineering support from those at ARP that are specialist at what they do. I have a saying I use every day. “there are only two types in this business, those that see it wrong and can fix it, and those that do not see it at all”. Choose your engine builder wisely. nh
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The Cylinder block, head fasteners and sealing system are all engineered to withstand the forces involved, as any engine should be. A 900+WHP Porsche Turbo engine should be no different.
I hope I have shed some light on a subject that is so misunderstood and under estimated.
nh
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Posts: 2,566
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From my buddies engine builder....
"I have read with some interest and despair what has being written about certain head studs made by ARP "
Like this one.
You sir, are what makes the internet so powerful. If it’s on the internet it must be true! Doesn’t matter that is void of facts or engineering data. I hope sir, you are good at whatever you do and you don’t make your living building high performance engines.
We have used ARP fasteners for many years. All of the connecting Rods we design and have made come with ARP bolts. All of the head studs we use are made to our design by ARP. We were the first to offer a 12.00mm stud and were the first to develop the 10.00mm x 12.00mm head stud. We developed the Head gasket system that uses a steel O ring to seal the combustion chamber.
But what was not copied was the engineering input into each of these parts. Engineering and an understanding of what is required is often not considered. This is a common trait in this business. Assemblers assembling 1000HP engines with no engineering understanding or common sense.
Maybe the head studs in question were never designed for the application in which they supposedly failed? Choice of stud design, the material spec’ed out and the components they hold together are all very important considerations. Saying that ARP studs are garbage is stupid and ignorant. Ever considered they hold together engines used in Top Fuel and Funny car’s? Your engine is a “big wheel” compared to those engines. The difference, those engines are designed and built by smart people.
Common sense and logic should give you some clues on what may be happening here. Ever considered the difference in the strength of steel under tensile stretch verses aluminum under compression? The parts that are changed are always to blame.
Many factors come into play here. The tensile strength of the stud, its design and material. The material it is anchored in, the way it was assembled and the parts they hold together. Here are some of the bad assembly practices I have seen in the past.
1. The wrong choice of material. Most don’t ever consider this or calculate the cylinder pressure that will be present. Most don’t even know how to calculate this.
2. The wrong design for the application. Thread type, and the friction forces involved.
3. Poor assembly. The use of Loctite and the studs bottomed out in the bores, wrong installation and tightening procedures. Zero consideration of the frictional forces at work here.
4. The wrong thread specification in the block/case used with the stud thread type.
5. Cylinder Head heat treatment and hardness. Did the stud actually stretch or did the head collapse inwards around the stud hole.
For as long as I can remember, it is never a human issue but always a component issue problem. There is a saying, “there is never enough money to do it right the first time, but always enough to do it a second time”.
Neil Harvey
Performance Developments
"I have read with some interest and despair what has being written about certain head studs made by ARP "
Like this one.
You sir, are what makes the internet so powerful. If it’s on the internet it must be true! Doesn’t matter that is void of facts or engineering data. I hope sir, you are good at whatever you do and you don’t make your living building high performance engines.
We have used ARP fasteners for many years. All of the connecting Rods we design and have made come with ARP bolts. All of the head studs we use are made to our design by ARP. We were the first to offer a 12.00mm stud and were the first to develop the 10.00mm x 12.00mm head stud. We developed the Head gasket system that uses a steel O ring to seal the combustion chamber.
But what was not copied was the engineering input into each of these parts. Engineering and an understanding of what is required is often not considered. This is a common trait in this business. Assemblers assembling 1000HP engines with no engineering understanding or common sense.
Maybe the head studs in question were never designed for the application in which they supposedly failed? Choice of stud design, the material spec’ed out and the components they hold together are all very important considerations. Saying that ARP studs are garbage is stupid and ignorant. Ever considered they hold together engines used in Top Fuel and Funny car’s? Your engine is a “big wheel” compared to those engines. The difference, those engines are designed and built by smart people.
Common sense and logic should give you some clues on what may be happening here. Ever considered the difference in the strength of steel under tensile stretch verses aluminum under compression? The parts that are changed are always to blame.
Many factors come into play here. The tensile strength of the stud, its design and material. The material it is anchored in, the way it was assembled and the parts they hold together. Here are some of the bad assembly practices I have seen in the past.
1. The wrong choice of material. Most don’t ever consider this or calculate the cylinder pressure that will be present. Most don’t even know how to calculate this.
2. The wrong design for the application. Thread type, and the friction forces involved.
3. Poor assembly. The use of Loctite and the studs bottomed out in the bores, wrong installation and tightening procedures. Zero consideration of the frictional forces at work here.
4. The wrong thread specification in the block/case used with the stud thread type.
5. Cylinder Head heat treatment and hardness. Did the stud actually stretch or did the head collapse inwards around the stud hole.
For as long as I can remember, it is never a human issue but always a component issue problem. There is a saying, “there is never enough money to do it right the first time, but always enough to do it a second time”.
Neil Harvey
Performance Developments
ARP builds great hardware for other applications just not so much for the head studs on a 996/997metzger engine especially back in 2008.I guess you have to know somebody over there to get them to build something?Unfortunately that doesn't help some of us lesser folk.As a matter of fact i had the 10mm ARP studs tested at the time and they were negligibly better than a stock stud.Do they offer a 12 mm stud for the average user today?i do not see them on their website?Maybe i need to give you a bunch of money so u can theoretically have them built.Joe
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Yes we use ARP fasteners on many of our engine projects. Cylinder Head fasteners, Rod bolt fasteners amongst the most critical of uses. One of the many engine projects we look after is a NHRA Pro Mod engine that produces in excess of 2500BHP. That engine runs above atmospheric pressure and uses ARP head studs.
The Cylinder block, head fasteners and sealing system are all engineered to withstand the forces involved, as any engine should be. A 900+WHP Porsche Turbo engine should be no different.
I hope I have shed some light on a subject that is so misunderstood and under estimated.
nh
The Cylinder block, head fasteners and sealing system are all engineered to withstand the forces involved, as any engine should be. A 900+WHP Porsche Turbo engine should be no different.
I hope I have shed some light on a subject that is so misunderstood and under estimated.
nh
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I don't think anyone is arguing that ARP isn't CAPABLE of producing quality hardware. The issue seems to be that the hardware they produce and offer to the general public FOR this specific application has proven lacking. It's expensive despite their being able to offer similar products for much less and has been tested to be barely better than stock components. It has failed for multiple users at its intended purpose as a result and it requires an onerous and expensive retorque which in light of everything else is salt in the wound.
Lastly, when asked to manufacture hardware of a higher quality spec for this application their quote was HIGHER than a known-good quality manufacturer ALREADY making fasteners for THIS application!
So yeah, for this application ARP "sucks" and isn't capturing nearly the business they could be. I for one couldn't care less that they make great products for OTHER applications if what they make for THIS application is unnecessarily expensive to the end user and fails when used. In addition I also don't care if they make a better product for someone else for THIS application if I'm unable to obtain it easily at a fair price. A superior option exists and ARP is failing to step up to fill a market requirement and compete. Worth noting is that folks have given them feedback about their hardware failing to meet needs here and that so far as anyone can tell NO changes have been made to satisfy anyone.
For point of amusement - I'm pretty sure that many of the built motors that are eschewing ARP head studs ARE using their rod bolts but I've been lead to understand that we need to ask for specific upgraded bolts when ordering to assure greater quality - at higher cost of course. Certainly I stand to be corrected on that point not having YET ordered the hardware to fortify my motor in the future. I, like many others, have simply been watching, learning, and talking to those who have gotten to experience the "fun" learning curve here that has often required multiple rebuilds to obtain current level of knowledge....
Lastly, when asked to manufacture hardware of a higher quality spec for this application their quote was HIGHER than a known-good quality manufacturer ALREADY making fasteners for THIS application!
So yeah, for this application ARP "sucks" and isn't capturing nearly the business they could be. I for one couldn't care less that they make great products for OTHER applications if what they make for THIS application is unnecessarily expensive to the end user and fails when used. In addition I also don't care if they make a better product for someone else for THIS application if I'm unable to obtain it easily at a fair price. A superior option exists and ARP is failing to step up to fill a market requirement and compete. Worth noting is that folks have given them feedback about their hardware failing to meet needs here and that so far as anyone can tell NO changes have been made to satisfy anyone.
For point of amusement - I'm pretty sure that many of the built motors that are eschewing ARP head studs ARE using their rod bolts but I've been lead to understand that we need to ask for specific upgraded bolts when ordering to assure greater quality - at higher cost of course. Certainly I stand to be corrected on that point not having YET ordered the hardware to fortify my motor in the future. I, like many others, have simply been watching, learning, and talking to those who have gotten to experience the "fun" learning curve here that has often required multiple rebuilds to obtain current level of knowledge....
Last edited by BLKMGK; Jan 30, 2016 at 09:57 AM.