16/24 Hybrid vs K24 Dyno Data Comparison Spreadsheet
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Originally Posted by Joe Weinstein
Hi all. I have a nagging question:
If it's so easy to make a hybrid k16/24 turbo that provides
'the best of both worlds', why does Porsche choose to
deliver (and KKK make) k16s and k24s as they do? I feel
sure there must be some sort of shortcoming of a 'hybrid'
which stops it from being a standard product. Anyone have
an idea what that might be?
Joe Weinstein
If it's so easy to make a hybrid k16/24 turbo that provides
'the best of both worlds', why does Porsche choose to
deliver (and KKK make) k16s and k24s as they do? I feel
sure there must be some sort of shortcoming of a 'hybrid'
which stops it from being a standard product. Anyone have
an idea what that might be?
Joe Weinstein
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To be rhetotical, why doesn't Porsche install bigger intercoolers, or better flowing exhaust? The fact is that manufacturers offer street cars that are built to perform under all conditions and are a compromise of price, technology at the time (our cars were fully developed by 2000), etc...
Do K16s and K24 have different shaft thickness? Very simply, the hybrid may not last 100K miles...? Also Zero clerance turbos may not last abusive drivers in their 1000 mile break in period.
Do K16s and K24 have different shaft thickness? Very simply, the hybrid may not last 100K miles...? Also Zero clerance turbos may not last abusive drivers in their 1000 mile break in period.
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I don't buy it yet. What Porsche could do isn't the issue. It's
"Why does KKK make k16 turbos as-is, and k24 turbos as-is,
as opposed to making a k16/k24 'hybrid' from the start. I don't
believe the cost to KKK would be any different if designed so
from the start, so I am guessing that there is some sort of
performance reason for not making a turbo with one side like
the k16 and the other like the 24, irrespective the fine-tuning
that Kevin does afterwards, which would help a stock k16 or
k24 just as much.
Joe
"Why does KKK make k16 turbos as-is, and k24 turbos as-is,
as opposed to making a k16/k24 'hybrid' from the start. I don't
believe the cost to KKK would be any different if designed so
from the start, so I am guessing that there is some sort of
performance reason for not making a turbo with one side like
the k16 and the other like the 24, irrespective the fine-tuning
that Kevin does afterwards, which would help a stock k16 or
k24 just as much.
Joe
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Originally Posted by MARKSKI
Not to get into arguments... but its been long ago said that some tune cars for peak HP .... I say.... not all HP is the same. If I recall correctly, in the 2004 US tuner shootout, evoms had the highest HP on the dyno.. but lost the Dyno portion of the shootout because of the "area under the curve".
Now, nothing wrong with that either. just a different approach. Different philosophy... maybe just a little more conservative?
Now, nothing wrong with that either. just a different approach. Different philosophy... maybe just a little more conservative?
Originally Posted by MARKSKI
well, I hate to keep bringing this up... but the 2004 shootout had many tuners including Evoms and Protomotive... and one of the stages was the dyno test. Here are two short paragraphs of the dyno results...
"The dyno score was split between peak horsepower and torque delivery. The first is simple enough; it's the biggest number. The second is more complicated: Imagine each car has a gear that tops out at 100 mph, then add up all the torque available to accelerate the vehicle from 40 mph to 100 mph in that gear." and "Protomotive's hybrid-turbo monster had area under the curve 15% greater than the highest peak-horsepower car, the Evolution Motorsports Stage 4, and 11% greater than the nearest competitor, By Design. Of 25 points available on the dyno, the 551-hp Protomotive car collected 24.107. Second place went to the 564-hp Evo Stage 4 car, with 20.053 points."
As much as I respect Evoms for their Success- and I do... because no one has done what they have... I do believe that there are others who are better at it.... one car at a time.
respectfully,
markski
"The dyno score was split between peak horsepower and torque delivery. The first is simple enough; it's the biggest number. The second is more complicated: Imagine each car has a gear that tops out at 100 mph, then add up all the torque available to accelerate the vehicle from 40 mph to 100 mph in that gear." and "Protomotive's hybrid-turbo monster had area under the curve 15% greater than the highest peak-horsepower car, the Evolution Motorsports Stage 4, and 11% greater than the nearest competitor, By Design. Of 25 points available on the dyno, the 551-hp Protomotive car collected 24.107. Second place went to the 564-hp Evo Stage 4 car, with 20.053 points."
As much as I respect Evoms for their Success- and I do... because no one has done what they have... I do believe that there are others who are better at it.... one car at a time.
respectfully,
markski
Originally Posted by MARKSKI
I also think that there is a misconception about Protomotive's choice of hybrid turbos. For one, he can create a system to anyones liking... hybrid or straight garrett turbos.... he does not limit himself to what has become known as K24/18G turbo. This turbo is used on his 600 hp kits as well as on 700 HP kits. One can start out with the 600 hp set up then upgrade to the 700 hp set without having to go with another set of turbos. I was Told by Todd K that k16 based turbos do not produce meaningful power because of the smaller housing. Thus he starts out with k24s...
Now, for those who think that that's the only set up he makes... well its not true. Todd can make any kit with any turbo combination.... Why? Because he actually tunes these cars as well. thus he can make a k24/gt28r or a k24/gt30r turbo kit... other choices like k24/20g or k24/72lbs as well.
I went with garrett GT35r with a 44 mm TAIL Wastegate. I have a car with this exact turbo and I love it. I could have done a gt30r but chose to go for the bigger. Some complain about the lag(in theory).... I say that An efficient, well designed system can make up for the air flow restrictions... thus decreasing lag and increasing throttle response.
BTW- He water cools the garrett turbos and has a MAF solution for his 700+ HP car for quite a while now... not so with other tuners...
His approach to tuning is: slightly bigger compressors, an efficient system, less boost and not so much fuel.... On the contrary, other tuners use smaller compressors.... more boost.. more fuel...
Well, Protomotive's 700 hp kit runs ONLY 1.35 bars of boost(max) and apparently is the fastest 1/4 car to date on a stock motor and heads...(10.6 at 136 mph)- Divirexxtreme.
So just because one chooses bigger compressor wheels over another doesn't mean its less efficient.
Like I said before... different tuners have different approaches....
best,
markski
Now, for those who think that that's the only set up he makes... well its not true. Todd can make any kit with any turbo combination.... Why? Because he actually tunes these cars as well. thus he can make a k24/gt28r or a k24/gt30r turbo kit... other choices like k24/20g or k24/72lbs as well.
I went with garrett GT35r with a 44 mm TAIL Wastegate. I have a car with this exact turbo and I love it. I could have done a gt30r but chose to go for the bigger. Some complain about the lag(in theory).... I say that An efficient, well designed system can make up for the air flow restrictions... thus decreasing lag and increasing throttle response.
BTW- He water cools the garrett turbos and has a MAF solution for his 700+ HP car for quite a while now... not so with other tuners...
His approach to tuning is: slightly bigger compressors, an efficient system, less boost and not so much fuel.... On the contrary, other tuners use smaller compressors.... more boost.. more fuel...
Well, Protomotive's 700 hp kit runs ONLY 1.35 bars of boost(max) and apparently is the fastest 1/4 car to date on a stock motor and heads...(10.6 at 136 mph)- Divirexxtreme.
So just because one chooses bigger compressor wheels over another doesn't mean its less efficient.
Like I said before... different tuners have different approaches....
best,
markski
Your rabid and insatiable desire to denigrate EVOMS and promote Protomotive, regardless of the thread topic, never ceases to amaze me. KPG posted about the virtues of hybrid turbos, without reference to any particular tuner. You immediately responded with pejorative references to a particular non-hybrid EVOMS car, and went so far as to suggest that EVOMS does not care about anything but peak HP. In responding to the thread topic -- hybrid turbos -- I shared my personal experiences with various different hybrid turbos, then noted in the last paragraph of my post that your disparaging comment about EVOMS was inaccurate. Of note, I did not post anything negative about Protomotive. To the contrary, I referenced Todd K. as one of the authorities on hybrid turbos. In response, you repeated your prior disparaging references to the non-hybrid EVOMS car, notwithstanding my comments about the multiple hybrid turbo set-ups offered by EVOMS. Then, to add fuel to the fire, you posted a third time, notwithstanding the absence of an intervening post, and expanded your assault with reference to issues completely unrelated to this thread, such as MAF problems experienced by EVOMS. Your ulterior agenda is old and tired. Everyone here is well aware of your general distaste for EVOMS and your belief that Protomotive is superior. You are certainly entitled to this belief, and there is nothing wrong with extolling Protomotive's virtues. However, your repetitive bashing of EVOMS is unnecessary, tired, and counterproductive. Take a lesson from your fellow Protomotove customers, Alex and Scott. They are thrilled with their Protomotive tuned cars and they regularly compliment Protomotive's work product. However, you will not see Alex or Scott denigrating EVOMS or any cars tuned by EVOMS. Both Alex and Scott recognize the inherently counterproductive nature of such posts. Perhaps you will come around one day.
As to your comments about the virtues of larger compressors and GT35s in particular, there are pros and cons to this approach. Yes, larger compressors, including the GT35s, will produce more HP at lower boost. However, there is an undeniable trade off. Larger compressors, including the GT35s in particular, take more time to spool. This is an undeniable law of physics. Quality tuning may minimize the additional lag, but the fact remains that there will be additional lag. This may not be a problem for you. You are not alone. Many people willingly accept greater lag for higher HP. The Supra community is well versed in these trade offs. However, many others, me included, are unwilling to accept the additional lag for additional HP, and many people willingly compromise power for quicker spooling. There is no right balance between power and lag. It is entirely a personal decision. EVOMS offered me GT35s, but I declined for the above-stated reasons. I choose the GT30 compressors as a middle ground between the faster spooling GT28s and the more powerful GT35s. The GT700/GT28 crowd consider the lag of the GT30s excessive. They chose even faster spooling, at the sacrifice of even more power. Its all a matter of personal preference.
Bottom line -- I hope (and suspect) that you will be immensely satisfied with your GT35 based Protomotive car. I have no doubt that it will be an extraordinary achievement.
Craig
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Poor comparision.
Should be Hybrid K24's vs Hybrid K16's
Hybrid K24's has LESS lag than stock K24's. The top end is also sooooo much better.
In the end the K24 hybrid is a far better turbo than the K16 hybrid !!
Should be Hybrid K24's vs Hybrid K16's
Hybrid K24's has LESS lag than stock K24's. The top end is also sooooo much better.
In the end the K24 hybrid is a far better turbo than the K16 hybrid !!
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Originally Posted by Craig
Marski
Your rabid and insatiable desire to denigrate EVOMS and promote Protomotive, regardless of the thread topic, never ceases to amaze me. KPG posted about the virtues of hybrid turbos, without reference to any particular tuner. You immediately responded with pejorative references to a particular non-hybrid EVOMS car, and went so far as to suggest that EVOMS does not care about anything but peak HP. In responding to the thread topic -- hybrid turbos -- I shared my personal experiences with various different hybrid turbos, then noted in the last paragraph of my post that your disparaging comment about EVOMS was inaccurate. Of note, I did not post anything negative about Protomotive. To the contrary, I referenced Todd K. as one of the authorities on hybrid turbos. In response, you repeated your prior disparaging references to the non-hybrid EVOMS car, notwithstanding my comments about the multiple hybrid turbo set-ups offered by EVOMS. Then, to add fuel to the fire, you posted a third time, notwithstanding the absence of an intervening post, and expanded your assault with reference to issues completely unrelated to this thread, such as MAF problems experienced by EVOMS. Your ulterior agenda is old and tired. Everyone here is well aware of your general distaste for EVOMS and your belief that Protomotive is superior. You are certainly entitled to this belief, and there is nothing wrong with extolling Protomotive's virtues. However, your repetitive bashing of EVOMS is unnecessary, tired, and counterproductive. Take a lesson from your fellow Protomotove customers, Alex and Scott. They are thrilled with their Protomotive tuned cars and they regularly compliment Protomotive's work product. However, you will not see Alex or Scott denigrating EVOMS or any cars tuned by EVOMS. Both Alex and Scott recognize the inherently counterproductive nature of such posts. Perhaps you will come around one day.
As to your comments about the virtues of larger compressors and GT35s in particular, there are pros and cons to this approach. Yes, larger compressors, including the GT35s, will produce more HP at lower boost. However, there is an undeniable trade off. Larger compressors, including the GT35s in particular, take more time to spool. This is an undeniable law of physics. Quality tuning may minimize the additional lag, but the fact remains that there will be additional lag. This may not be a problem for you. You are not alone. Many people willingly accept greater lag for higher HP. The Supra community is well versed in these trade offs. However, many others, me included, are unwilling to accept the additional lag for additional HP, and many people willingly compromise power for quicker spooling. There is no right balance between power and lag. It is entirely a personal decision. EVOMS offered me GT35s, but I declined for the above-stated reasons. I choose the GT30 compressors as a middle ground between the faster spooling GT28s and the more powerful GT35s. The GT700/GT28 crowd consider the lag of the GT30s excessive. They chose even faster spooling, at the sacrifice of even more power. Its all a matter of personal preference.
Bottom line -- I hope (and suspect) that you will be immensely satisfied with your GT35 based Protomotive car. I have no doubt that it will be an extraordinary achievement.
Craig
Your rabid and insatiable desire to denigrate EVOMS and promote Protomotive, regardless of the thread topic, never ceases to amaze me. KPG posted about the virtues of hybrid turbos, without reference to any particular tuner. You immediately responded with pejorative references to a particular non-hybrid EVOMS car, and went so far as to suggest that EVOMS does not care about anything but peak HP. In responding to the thread topic -- hybrid turbos -- I shared my personal experiences with various different hybrid turbos, then noted in the last paragraph of my post that your disparaging comment about EVOMS was inaccurate. Of note, I did not post anything negative about Protomotive. To the contrary, I referenced Todd K. as one of the authorities on hybrid turbos. In response, you repeated your prior disparaging references to the non-hybrid EVOMS car, notwithstanding my comments about the multiple hybrid turbo set-ups offered by EVOMS. Then, to add fuel to the fire, you posted a third time, notwithstanding the absence of an intervening post, and expanded your assault with reference to issues completely unrelated to this thread, such as MAF problems experienced by EVOMS. Your ulterior agenda is old and tired. Everyone here is well aware of your general distaste for EVOMS and your belief that Protomotive is superior. You are certainly entitled to this belief, and there is nothing wrong with extolling Protomotive's virtues. However, your repetitive bashing of EVOMS is unnecessary, tired, and counterproductive. Take a lesson from your fellow Protomotove customers, Alex and Scott. They are thrilled with their Protomotive tuned cars and they regularly compliment Protomotive's work product. However, you will not see Alex or Scott denigrating EVOMS or any cars tuned by EVOMS. Both Alex and Scott recognize the inherently counterproductive nature of such posts. Perhaps you will come around one day.
As to your comments about the virtues of larger compressors and GT35s in particular, there are pros and cons to this approach. Yes, larger compressors, including the GT35s, will produce more HP at lower boost. However, there is an undeniable trade off. Larger compressors, including the GT35s in particular, take more time to spool. This is an undeniable law of physics. Quality tuning may minimize the additional lag, but the fact remains that there will be additional lag. This may not be a problem for you. You are not alone. Many people willingly accept greater lag for higher HP. The Supra community is well versed in these trade offs. However, many others, me included, are unwilling to accept the additional lag for additional HP, and many people willingly compromise power for quicker spooling. There is no right balance between power and lag. It is entirely a personal decision. EVOMS offered me GT35s, but I declined for the above-stated reasons. I choose the GT30 compressors as a middle ground between the faster spooling GT28s and the more powerful GT35s. The GT700/GT28 crowd consider the lag of the GT30s excessive. They chose even faster spooling, at the sacrifice of even more power. Its all a matter of personal preference.
Bottom line -- I hope (and suspect) that you will be immensely satisfied with your GT35 based Protomotive car. I have no doubt that it will be an extraordinary achievement.
Craig
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Originally Posted by K24madness
Poor comparision.
Should be Hybrid K24's vs Hybrid K16's
Hybrid K24's has LESS lag than stock K24's. The top end is also sooooo much better.
In the end the K24 hybrid is a far better turbo than the K16 hybrid !!
Should be Hybrid K24's vs Hybrid K16's
Hybrid K24's has LESS lag than stock K24's. The top end is also sooooo much better.
In the end the K24 hybrid is a far better turbo than the K16 hybrid !!
Isn't that personal choice and why do you say that?
Craig, now u are putting words in my mouth... and if you reread the thread... KPG did say it was an evoms satge 4 program... I did not say that first my friend. Kevin did. Nor did I put up the data sheet either.
It was the same turbos, same operator, same dyno, but different programming.
The only reason why I quoted the article was to show the importance of the "area under the curve". Unfortunately, You took it the wrong way.... Is Evoms so untouchable that no one can utter a word unless it is approved? Come on Craig let's be fair. This is a forum is it not. I do Believe that Todd Z is a marketing Genius... I think they have very good well rounded packages... and I stated that very clearly in the post. I was not bashing evoms...
The article stated that Evoms had the highest peak HP number.. not me. If you do a search on my posts... notice that I mention Evoms almost as often as protomotive... and I give props every time they succeed. For example, the ICs they make Are great and I referred 2 guys to evoms. The turbos with the gt28s and gt30rs and awesome too. I often put Evoms first in my sentence when I mention tuners... not Protomotive. Maybe you have not been around online as much as I have lately, but I can assure you that my tone is very neutral.
best,
markski
It was the same turbos, same operator, same dyno, but different programming.
The only reason why I quoted the article was to show the importance of the "area under the curve". Unfortunately, You took it the wrong way.... Is Evoms so untouchable that no one can utter a word unless it is approved? Come on Craig let's be fair. This is a forum is it not. I do Believe that Todd Z is a marketing Genius... I think they have very good well rounded packages... and I stated that very clearly in the post. I was not bashing evoms...
The article stated that Evoms had the highest peak HP number.. not me. If you do a search on my posts... notice that I mention Evoms almost as often as protomotive... and I give props every time they succeed. For example, the ICs they make Are great and I referred 2 guys to evoms. The turbos with the gt28s and gt30rs and awesome too. I often put Evoms first in my sentence when I mention tuners... not Protomotive. Maybe you have not been around online as much as I have lately, but I can assure you that my tone is very neutral.
best,
markski
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Last edited by markski@markskituning; Nov 30, 2006 at 11:27 PM.
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The EVOMS and Protomotive discussions are like discussing apples and oranges. The only thing the 30 and 35 turbos do is move the power band from 3500-7500 or 4500-8500 power band. I don't consider the 28's to be in the same league as they are a solid bearing turbo which do not spool as fast and produce about 15% less power than a comparable ball baring turbo.
EVOMS stages and Protomotive do not cater to the same needs or market. EVOMS delivers alot of bang for the buck and they can produce alot of product. Protomotive builds for the most part custom and very expensive motors. They cannot produce alot of product. Their motors are expensive because they go into areas that cost alot of money ........... mainly intake/exhaust cams, big valves, ports and intakes. People on this forum seem to refer to this as "bigger ponies" when in fact it is more power with lower boost. This gets the motor into the torque curve faster which makes the ponies look and feel bigger. In addition the higher boost creates much more heat which in very short order (or time) will drastically reduce power.
When it comes down to it, I would guess that 95+% of the forum members can't handle 500 hp in the twisties. I don't believe too many more could sit in VR's 900+ hp Protomotive car or a EVOMS 800/900 at all out acceleration to top end without wetting their drawers. Heck, the GT1 won Le Mans with 600 hp. All this extra power is nice ........... but useless to most of us.
EVOMS stages and Protomotive do not cater to the same needs or market. EVOMS delivers alot of bang for the buck and they can produce alot of product. Protomotive builds for the most part custom and very expensive motors. They cannot produce alot of product. Their motors are expensive because they go into areas that cost alot of money ........... mainly intake/exhaust cams, big valves, ports and intakes. People on this forum seem to refer to this as "bigger ponies" when in fact it is more power with lower boost. This gets the motor into the torque curve faster which makes the ponies look and feel bigger. In addition the higher boost creates much more heat which in very short order (or time) will drastically reduce power.
When it comes down to it, I would guess that 95+% of the forum members can't handle 500 hp in the twisties. I don't believe too many more could sit in VR's 900+ hp Protomotive car or a EVOMS 800/900 at all out acceleration to top end without wetting their drawers. Heck, the GT1 won Le Mans with 600 hp. All this extra power is nice ........... but useless to most of us.
Last edited by cjv; Dec 1, 2006 at 01:14 AM.
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Just for everyone's info...here is my dyno sheet with the GT35R's at 1.326bar...keep in mind that the Tial Springs are .6bar...this is on a conservative engine dyno..862hp..
Attachment 44885
The car in the real world with .8bar springs hits full boost at or just before 4000RPM's and keeps full boost to 8000RPM's....for me, this is great power under the curve....once your out of first gear...its pretty much lag GAME OVER...I will say it again...its the air flow through the engine that wakes up the 996 tt's..so HEAD WORK.. HEAD WORK.. HEAD WORK!! On a stock head, the powerband would be completely different!
Marski-
You should have gone with twin GT40R's like I did on the Supra....With the right Injector combo I can see the turbo laying down 1100+hp with GT40R's...if I don't sell my turbo, its going back to Todd for some cams and a pair of GT40R's.
Absolutely!!! My exhaust was re-done 3 times before a "quiet" 1:1 ratio was achieved
Yes, yes we are.....as someone refered to my twin GT40R Supra...."Lag City, population you"!!
CJV-
Well said!!!...and thats 915whp, not 900+wph ....and SPDRACER (amoung others) did wet his pants...I had to steam clean the seat!!
I also have diapers in the glove box just for a joke (well a joke in some cases) !
Here is a photo of a guy that needed a diaper after a 170+mph front straight run at Willow Springs...he was screaming bloody murder as we drifted into turn one...
Attachment 44886
Sharkster-
Thats just too much information for a public forum...
I would love to get a ride in the GT800 after she is dialed in...I never had a ride in a EVOMS GT800 6speed...tell me when...so I can skip dinner the night before....
Attachment 44885
The car in the real world with .8bar springs hits full boost at or just before 4000RPM's and keeps full boost to 8000RPM's....for me, this is great power under the curve....once your out of first gear...its pretty much lag GAME OVER...I will say it again...its the air flow through the engine that wakes up the 996 tt's..so HEAD WORK.. HEAD WORK.. HEAD WORK!! On a stock head, the powerband would be completely different!
Marski-
You should have gone with twin GT40R's like I did on the Supra....With the right Injector combo I can see the turbo laying down 1100+hp with GT40R's...if I don't sell my turbo, its going back to Todd for some cams and a pair of GT40R's.
Originally Posted by SMR
Does anyone take backpressure in to acount..? doesn´t seems so
Originally Posted by Craig
The Supra community is well versed in these trade offs. .
CJV-
Well said!!!...and thats 915whp, not 900+wph
....and SPDRACER (amoung others) did wet his pants...I had to steam clean the seat!! I also have diapers in the glove box just for a joke (well a joke in some cases) !
Here is a photo of a guy that needed a diaper after a 170+mph front straight run at Willow Springs...he was screaming bloody murder as we drifted into turn one...
Attachment 44886
Sharkster-
Thats just too much information for a public forum...
I would love to get a ride in the GT800 after she is dialed in...I never had a ride in a EVOMS GT800 6speed...tell me when...so I can skip dinner the night before....
Last edited by VRAlexander; Dec 15, 2006 at 12:27 PM.
I know Alex but Todd was worried about crankshafts. I do have the bigger
A/R housing.
I can always do it later
A/R housing.
I can always do it later
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Originally Posted by z8cw
Isn't that personal choice and why do you say that?
