Suspension settings is so key, I completely agree. Unfortunately for me, daily driving the S (all 4000K/year) means suspension with MUCH less camber and a little less toe than I'd like when Im at the track.

While it is seems you all are suggesting it is more than possible to dial out the understeer of the AWD C4S, I would (probably) not run that aggressive of a setup every day... so when Im at a DE, I would assume it would push a little....

Well ****... this doesn't help me pick... I agree, it also will come down to the drive, but it is so hard to get a real sense of the car during a limited test drive...

 

Well thats your choice...its just tires...lol....I got rid of essentially ALL my understeer with PSS9's and corner balance. you could do even more with sway bars....tire size and pressures are crucial as well....Here is the deal...a C4S or a C2 on a track are AWESOME cars, there is no wrong decision.

 

good post.

 

It really comes down to weight. Throw 275 extra pounds in any car and it's going to do certain things slower.

It can't accelerate as quickly, brake as late, and it won't corner as well.

AWD is nice to have in slick conditions to put the power down, but in my experience in the dry the C2 has no problems putting power down on corner exit. Plus, any suspension mods you do on a C4S you can also do to a C2. Finally, even in the narrow body form you can get up to 315's in the rear and 245's up front. Even with the powerkit, these cars don't need any more "tire" than that for track work (if it's enough for a GT3, it's plenty for a C2).

 

275 isnt really that much. Compared to most other drivers out there, at 165, I gain about 50 pounds advantage in seat weight, and having a pro level motorcycle road racing backround, I'd bet my idea of late braking is much different than most peoples. With the 4S and stock tires I pushed the front enough to catch my attention a couple times already. With a C2, it would have been way past "catch my attention", into "um how do we explain this to the insurance company". Now with 315s and PSS10 on my car, we'll see how far we can push it... on the track, the street is not the place to prove anything, on a bike or in a car.

 

Well, I guess if you're running -3.5 camber in the front, it will take out a lot of the understeer. Not very fun for driving on the street. I have PSS9's, but I still have quite a bit of understeer with my -1.5 camber.

As said above, both great cars; but as Hurley Haywood said at PDE, "Understeer is the nature of an AWD car, esp with the 911 which already has the tendency to understeer". He did go on to say that the C4 is a very good track car, as understeer is much safer than oversteer or even neutral handling.

 

Well, in relation to the track... "safer" does usually mean "cheaper".

I'm trying to arrange some time this week to drive both iterations, but every day I think I have a free afternoon, something fills it up.

 

I'm sorry, but IMHO 275 pounds in a 320hp car is a big deal. If the one car weighs 3,100 pounds and the other weighs 3,375, the second car will need an additional 28 hp to have the same power to weigh ratio. (anyone who visits this forum on an even semi-regular basis has read countless threads about guys spending big money in the quest for an additional 25 hp. Remind me again, how much does Porsche charge for the power kit??)

That's significant in my book. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but racers that I know would love to find an easy 100 lbs they could trim from their cars (I certainly would).

They'd just about kill for 275.

The C4S is a stunning beauty, but the OP asks about the track. For that use I'd choose the C2.

 

If your priority is the track get the C2.

The weight is a huge factor

Once your driving improves to a certain point you'll appreciate the characteristics of rear wheel drive.

not many 911 cup cars with awd

tw

 

I was a road racer on motorcycles for 10 years and still have a pro level license. I'm well aware of what weight means on a race car/bike, however, there's very little similarity between a real racer and the average street driver or even track day junkie. 275 pounds on a street car is more than made up in driver skill.

That was the same reason I chose to race 600's rather than 1000's. I was faster with 120 HP than most were with 180.

 

So now you want to compare apples and oranges (good drivers vs. bad)? You could probably put Kimi in a Miata and I'm sure he could pass some 996 drivers at a DE or race, but what does that prove? Hell, I've passed dozens of Boxster S's in my plain Jane 2.7l Boxster at the track, but I don't believe for a second that I have the faster car.

Why are you trying to confuse the issue in this manner?

Look at it this way. Let's assume you have a two equally skilled (good, but still amateur) drivers who want to campaign their 996's in PCA Club Racing. (In this series you have mostly stock cars that the rules will allow you to modify in a limited fashion and still be allowed to run in the stock classes.)

One driver has a C2 and the other has a C4S and they each modify their cars in the exact same manner (so equal good drivers, equal mods). On a dry track are you honestly implying that there is going to be virtually no difference in lap times? On a wet track the C4S has an obvious advantage. Is your judgement so clouded by your own car choice that you can't see the obvious advantage for the C2 in the dry?

Congrats on your skill, but you realize you are demonstrating that you beat them with more skill in spite of the fact they were on the faster bike right?

 

They had a bike that was faster in a straight line, not faster in the corners, which is where the 4S should be... faster in the corner.

 

You guys are splitting hairs for a car that will not be RACED. When all was said and done a heavier C4S lapped Nurburgring faster than a lighter C2. So it may have a weight disadvantage, but the bigger brakes and wider tires make up for it. Now we are NOT talking about BIG numbers....so in my opinion, its basically a wash. Like I said to the original poster...Doesnt matter if Walter Rohl loves the AWD and prefers it to a C2, he isnt driving it. So DRIVE both, see which one you like better, and that will be a better track car FOR YOU.

 

Doubt it. As said previously, the Carrera has no want for traction in the corners. It's always been famous for the traction out of the corners, the advantage of the rear engine.

 

Sorry to cause such a raging debate ... I am a true Colin Chapman disciple in that I appreciate the lowest weight possible... but agree, I need to get some wheel time behind both.

Another question -- what about maintenance cost. Obviously bigger tires and brakes mean larger cost. But overall I have heard both cars (well maintained) are very reliable. Have you all found this to be true?