Originally Posted by cjv

Another question?

There are two pics of the valve springs/retainers for this build in this thread.


I understand what is being shown in both. My question is which setup is really being utilizes.

Originally Posted by cjv

Todd,

You have my curiosity up.

In the following pic:



part of the intake valve reliefs on the piston domes are not ceramic coated. Did you relieve them after they were coated or is this something new?

Originally Posted by m42racer

After re reading my own post I'm confused as well. In fact I'm not bashing anyone. I'm just tried of all of the high HP bragging that always leads to trash talking. All that is written and re written is about who made what HP.

My intent was to tell that building an engine to make 1000 HP is alot easier than most understand. Making it last is another. AND, and I really mean AND, 1000HP engines never do last. Built by the best. They are not meant to last.

Originally Posted by Evolution MotorSports

You are SHARP!!!! Good eye When we originally started this build, we had planned on using the titanium setup. The problem we ran into was valve clearance with the pistons. You can see in the other photo you mention the very large valve pockets we machined into the piston. This was the deelest pocket that we could machine into this piston without sacrificing strength or changing the piston design. This clearance was perfect for the stainless valves however with the titanium valves, they require using lash caps which caused an interference problem once again.

We could have solved this problem by having new pistons or new valves made. Once we discussed the options with our customer, we decided that the solution for this project was to run the stainless valves and keep the pistons. Since this is not going to be a high revving, crazy power engine, our customer decided on this route given the time involved in engineering and making new components.

Originally Posted by Evolution MotorSports

You have nothing to worry about. This should be more of a "test and tune" fun event

Originally Posted by cjv

Todd,

I gave up worrying a couple of years ago. I just do the best I can now although just watching EVOMS has induced me to make several detours over time because I simply was slow in putting my build together.

You guys are a very class act. You know I have borrowed ideas from you as well as used some of your parts. I have also shared information from time to time.

I really look forward to a fun event. When it finally gets assembled ........ I'm done. You guys being in the business will continue to raise the bar wherever it may be. I very much look forward to watching this for many years to come.

Originally Posted by Evolution MotorSports

Thanks for the professionalism Chuck! Here are a few more pictures of the build:

Originally Posted by 997 GT3 RS/TT

you won't have problem with high boost ?
it's very interessting idea but this westgate exit is on 90 dgree angle from exhaust housing and the pipe is long.....

Originally Posted by m42racer

20 race hours @ 1000HP is impossible. I cannot think of 1 1000HP modern race engine, let alone 1 that has run for 20 hours. Way over optimistic in my opinion. I hope you are not telling your customers things like this. Porsche has never built a 1000 HP engine since the 917 turbo engine. That engine never ran anything close to 1000Hp in long distance races. The 962C engine that all of these 996 and 997 engine are all based off ran 24 hours at Le Mans and Daytona but at way less HP. I think for the 24 hour races they ran at 650 HP levels and after 24 hours were just about junk.

Some questions on your last posts. I'm confused how changing from Ti Valves to Steel requires deeper pockets in the Pistons? And the use of Ti Valves on a 1000 HP engine for the street? Ti Valves are not used in Turbo engines if any sort of durability is required. 6.00mm stems to boot. They will never last. This all goes against what you are saying about 9 years of development. This is engine building 101. Surely the Cam lift, was known before hand, the Valve sizes choosen based upon the Head flow required to met the performance numbers wanted and the Pistons designed for the known lift. Also, the Pistons should have been moched up prior to coating once they were received to make sure the P/V clearances were corrected with the Cam Timing wanted. I've seem rapid prototype Pistons printed recently to moch up the engine before any Piston is made. From what I have been told, these engines have plenty of Piston clearance as the Cam control allows the Intake Cam to move alot. Have you measured the Cam movement and how many degrees it can move? From the pictures your cams do not look that big on lift. Some out there require the Cam carrier tray to be machined so they can turn. Lash caps add nothing to the lift. Otherwise the Valves would sit off the seats. Ti Valves that require Lash Caps would not have steel tips, so the valve could be shortened the thickness of the lash cap. Unless the Lock groove was too high or Soild tappest were used. Then the Cam lobes would not be the Tri lobe type. Then the whole design was not thought out properely at the very beginning. Expected perfromance levels require certain engine parts and configurations. Head Flow, manifold flow numbers along with Turbo flow numbers, Cam Lift, Vale sizes all need to be decided at the beginning. Then the Cam lift is checked for its ability to turn in the housing, Valve lengths required, tappet choice etc.

On a completely different point, I see you are still using the tri lobe Intake Cam. Then you must be using the stock Intake Tappet. Are you aware of the serious problem with these tappets? I cannot understand from all of the engines you state you have built, you have not discovered the problem with them and still continue to use them.

This all should have been done before anything was even started. Especially as you state this is a 9 yesr development program. This is engine building 101. Engine builders do not do it this way, but assemblers do.

The other poster noted the distance from the Turbo to the Wgate. Are you trying to create the biggest lag possible? Wgates should be as close to the Turbo as possible, otherwise you lose all of that exhaust energy.

Based upon what I am seeing and reading, there are some huge holes in your development program and story that need to be plugged if you wish to be at the level required to build these engines professionally. Take a look at the thread showing the development of Chad's engine and the level of engineering included. Compare that to yours.

If you post pictures and statements about your engine programs and they do not make any engine sense, please accept them as contructive criticism not post bashing. As a company owner you wear many hats. You cannot be expected to wear them all at once.

I'm going to suggest something to you off line to consider.

Originally Posted by m42racer

20 race hours @ 1000HP is impossible. I cannot think of 1 1000HP modern race engine, let alone 1 that has run for 20 hours. Way over optimistic in my opinion. I hope you are not telling your customers things like this. Porsche has never built a 1000 HP engine since the 917 turbo engine. That engine never ran anything close to 1000Hp in long distance races. The 962C engine that all of these 996 and 997 engine are all based off ran 24 hours at Le Mans and Daytona but at way less HP. I think for the 24 hour races they ran at 650 HP levels and after 24 hours were just about junk.

Originally Posted by m42racer

Based upon what I am seeing and reading, there are some huge holes in your development program and story that need to be plugged if you wish to be at the level required to build these engines professionally. Take a look at the thread showing the development of Chad's engine and the level of engineering included. Compare that to yours.

.

Originally Posted by cjv

m42racer,It is one thing to have a good discussion. It is another to talk down or degrade someone. Questions need to be asked in an honest manner to give an individual a chance to reply or defend what they are doing? I have to admit in my own thread I do or say certain things so as not to alert everyone to all of my secrets. I know you have seen some, like the 105.7 mm pistons. They are close to what I was using, but I know you caught the fact that they are physically too big for the case. You might take into consideration that some of the same may be done here so as to not give everything away. I know you and I know Todd. I wouldn't disrespect either, especially in public. You have some good questions, however they really need to be asked in the spirit of cooperation. We can always agree to disagree later. If a real disagreement is to come about I would really appreciate not having my name drug into it as an example. I am not lecturing you, sorry if I come off that way. You are extremely bright and EVOMS has built some impressive motors. I believe we have to appreciate what is being shared and understand that not everything is going to be shared.I probably didn't do a good job explaining things, but if there is one thing I hope to convey is that some discuession is better than everyone just clamming up. If we try to challenge or afront, people just clam up.

Originally Posted by OhioGT2

Chad,

For someone who reports himself to be unbiased, you sure come to EVOMS rescue a lot. There have been 2-3 very valid points brought up suggesting EVOMS still has a ways to go in their engine program and you're all over any post that even has a 'tone' to it.

If this boards are going to change the rules on how people can respond to a sponsors thread, then please make a clear rule change and apply evenly. There's been lots of bias coming out lately.....

Jamie

Originally Posted by m42racer

20 race hours @ 1000HP is impossible. I cannot think of 1 1000HP modern race engine, let alone 1 that has run for 20 hours. Way over optimistic in my opinion. I hope you are not telling your customers things like this. Porsche has never built a 1000 HP engine since the 917 turbo engine. That engine never ran anything close to 1000Hp in long distance races. The 962C engine that all of these 996 and 997 engine are all based off ran 24 hours at Le Mans and Daytona but at way less HP. I think for the 24 hour races they ran at 650 HP levels and after 24 hours were just about junk.

Some questions on your last posts. I'm confused how changing from Ti Valves to Steel requires deeper pockets in the Pistons? And the use of Ti Valves on a 1000 HP engine for the street? Ti Valves are not used in Turbo engines if any sort of durability is required. 6.00mm stems to boot. They will never last. This all goes against what you are saying about 9 years of development. This is engine building 101. Surely the Cam lift, was known before hand, the Valve sizes choosen based upon the Head flow required to met the performance numbers wanted and the Pistons designed for the known lift. Also, the Pistons should have been moched up prior to coating once they were received to make sure the P/V clearances were corrected with the Cam Timing wanted. I've seem rapid prototype Pistons printed recently to moch up the engine before any Piston is made. From what I have been told, these engines have plenty of Piston clearance as the Cam control allows the Intake Cam to move alot. Have you measured the Cam movement and how many degrees it can move? From the pictures your cams do not look that big on lift. Some out there require the Cam carrier tray to be machined so they can turn. Lash caps add nothing to the lift. Otherwise the Valves would sit off the seats. Ti Valves that require Lash Caps would not have steel tips, so the valve could be shortened the thickness of the lash cap. Unless the Lock groove was too high or Soild tappest were used. Then the Cam lobes would not be the Tri lobe type. Then the whole design was not thought out properely at the very beginning. Expected perfromance levels require certain engine parts and configurations. Head Flow, manifold flow numbers along with Turbo flow numbers, Cam Lift, Vale sizes all need to be decided at the beginning. Then the Cam lift is checked for its ability to turn in the housing, Valve lengths required, tappet choice etc.

On a completely different point, I see you are still using the tri lobe Intake Cam. Then you must be using the stock Intake Tappet. Are you aware of the serious problem with these tappets? I cannot understand from all of the engines you state you have built, you have not discovered the problem with them and still continue to use them.

This all should have been done before anything was even started. Especially as you state this is a 9 yesr development program. This is engine building 101. Engine builders do not do it this way, but assemblers do.

The other poster noted the distance from the Turbo to the Wgate. Are you trying to create the biggest lag possible? Wgates should be as close to the Turbo as possible, otherwise you lose all of that exhaust energy.

Based upon what I am seeing and reading, there are some huge holes in your development program and story that need to be plugged if you wish to be at the level required to build these engines professionally. Take a look at the thread showing the development of Chad's engine and the level of engineering included. Compare that to yours.

If you post pictures and statements about your engine programs and they do not make any engine sense, please accept them as contructive criticism not post bashing. As a company owner you wear many hats. You cannot be expected to wear them all at once.

I'm going to suggest something to you off line to consider.