2010 PDK Turbo: test drive by gen1 owner
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Gentlemen,
I think we have a concensus here. A highly modified 997.1 TT is better than a bone stock 997.2 TT. Perhaps a different forum for the 997.2 guys in in order? While it doesn't seem to be apples to apples. Really, the question being asked here is whether the differences (improvements) are sooo great that it would warrant trading up to the 997.2. I'm hearing no.
For those folks currently without a TT (like me) and looking at the deals out there on used 997.1 cars and the 997.2, I'm following this thread like a hawk follows a rabbit.
My $.02
1. Even my 996TT was soft and seemed to be designed for the guy on Wall Street and not a guy that wanted to play on a track occasionally. Isn't that why you guys are all replacing your sway bars, adding PSS9s or 10s, and dropping the cars 15 - 25mm? I put PSS9s on my TT and still hated the ride.
2. These TT engines come with plenty of power. We just know we can tweak them for $1.5K - $30k to get a lot more power. We like power. Hell, I put a 997S motor in my Boxster S. (Great ROI decision there.) Because we can, we will get more power.
3. Can I speculate that if they had changed the body style slightly more and come out with something named a 998TT rather than sparing you this time around, would there be a different tune being sung?
4. Does anyone out there have a modified 997.2 that can come to the defense of your Gen 2 Brethren?
Sorry to heat up the battle field, but this is just a worthwhile thread to get it all ironed out. Really not trying to be a $hithead.
Dave
I think we have a concensus here. A highly modified 997.1 TT is better than a bone stock 997.2 TT. Perhaps a different forum for the 997.2 guys in in order? While it doesn't seem to be apples to apples. Really, the question being asked here is whether the differences (improvements) are sooo great that it would warrant trading up to the 997.2. I'm hearing no.
For those folks currently without a TT (like me) and looking at the deals out there on used 997.1 cars and the 997.2, I'm following this thread like a hawk follows a rabbit.
My $.02
1. Even my 996TT was soft and seemed to be designed for the guy on Wall Street and not a guy that wanted to play on a track occasionally. Isn't that why you guys are all replacing your sway bars, adding PSS9s or 10s, and dropping the cars 15 - 25mm? I put PSS9s on my TT and still hated the ride.
2. These TT engines come with plenty of power. We just know we can tweak them for $1.5K - $30k to get a lot more power. We like power. Hell, I put a 997S motor in my Boxster S. (Great ROI decision there.) Because we can, we will get more power.
3. Can I speculate that if they had changed the body style slightly more and come out with something named a 998TT rather than sparing you this time around, would there be a different tune being sung?
4. Does anyone out there have a modified 997.2 that can come to the defense of your Gen 2 Brethren?
Sorry to heat up the battle field, but this is just a worthwhile thread to get it all ironed out. Really not trying to be a $hithead.
Dave
Last edited by Dave; Dec 4, 2009 at 11:40 AM.
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dave, very very good perspective, not $hithead at all imo. we're all waiting to hear what happens to pdk and the wetsump engine once u jack it up to 600hp plus, so i guess i'm with u there. sad thing is with the economy so bad u prob won't get a lot of guys doing to their gen2s the level of work we did to our gen1s. and btw if pdk can't take the extra power like some are suggesting, good luck getting it fixed under warranty if u blow it up from the mods.
if u are looking at tt's, just buy a used gen1 for 90k, lower with springs only, and maybe change the rims. it's good enough for a street ride, imo. if u want track car, 3.8 gt3 gen2 is perfect also.
if u are looking at tt's, just buy a used gen1 for 90k, lower with springs only, and maybe change the rims. it's good enough for a street ride, imo. if u want track car, 3.8 gt3 gen2 is perfect also.
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..
For those folks currently without a TT (like me) and looking at the deals out there on used 997.1 cars and the 997.2, I'm following this thread like a hawk follows a rabbit.
My $.02
1. Even my 996TT was soft and seemed to be designed for the guy on Wall Street and not a guy that wanted to play on a track occasionally. Isn't that why you guys are all replacing your sway bars, adding PSS9s or 10s, and dropping the cars 15 - 25mm? I put PSS9s on my TT and still hated the ride.
4. Does anyone out there have a modified 997.2 that can come to the defense of your Gen 2 Brethren?
For those folks currently without a TT (like me) and looking at the deals out there on used 997.1 cars and the 997.2, I'm following this thread like a hawk follows a rabbit.
My $.02
1. Even my 996TT was soft and seemed to be designed for the guy on Wall Street and not a guy that wanted to play on a track occasionally. Isn't that why you guys are all replacing your sway bars, adding PSS9s or 10s, and dropping the cars 15 - 25mm? I put PSS9s on my TT and still hated the ride.
4. Does anyone out there have a modified 997.2 that can come to the defense of your Gen 2 Brethren?
Incidentally I just added the 996 Turbo's spring rate for comparison to my post above.
2. No mod for 997.2 yet, not for at least 1 year I would think. But very likely if you get the PDK, ECU modding would not be advisable as the torque tolerance of PDK is an unknown and the cost of repairing one could be excessive.
There is a rumored number floating around for PDK's torque rating and it's not that high, 790 NM http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread...html#p20116553 . Since some 997.1 Turbo's with stage 2 ECU mod are slipping the clutch already in certain conditions, and since the clutch slips around 700-750 Nm, the implication is that the margin of safety is not good at all for PDK cars.
Don't get me wrong. I think 997.2 is an excellent car, my question is only about whether it's a big change from 997.1 suspension wise, and from users' reviews so far, thankfully
the change is evolutionary. Stock 997.2 is better than stock 997.1, but a Bilstein 997.1 might still be the most satisfying one of the 3 scenarios.A used 997.1 Turbo is an incredible bargain; the deal of a lifetime LOL and the last of Turbo with the famed Mezger engine.
Alex thanks.
Last edited by cannga; Dec 3, 2009 at 10:35 AM.
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awesome write up. Your GEN1 looks great on the HRE's. The really do make the car nicer looking. I like the old stock turbo wheels better than the new stock wheels but the spyder center lock wheels are my favorite for eight gen 1 or 2. Neither set is as nice as you P40 though. I actually like the pale blue (almost smurf blue) that is currently available on the turbo. The other 2 colors I would coose between are white and yellow. Once again great write up and you 997.1 modified is great looking and looks like one hell of a performer. Nice job.
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Thanks for the complements!
With regards to the performance it's not just raw numbers that are the difference between a Stage 2+ 997.1 Turbo and the stock cars (in either 997.1 or 997.2 guises). Imagine it like this...
A stock 997.1 Turbo accelerating is like Usian Bolt trying to run waste deep through treacle. A 992.2 PDK Turbo is like running through water, and a Stage II Turbo is like running through air. The car just feels so much more free and smooth as it goes through the revs, it feels like it's not even trying to accelerate.
I think a lot of this may be down to the aftermarket exhausts that reduce back pressure (100 or 200 cell vs stock 600 cell). Obviously Porsche have environmental considerations/targets so don't have this freedom. NOTE: even if you have an aftermarket exhaust, without an ECU remap you won't be taking advantage of this back-pressure benefit (assuming you chose an aftermarket exhaust that reduces back-pressure like the Cargraphic one)
I suppose the more power Porsche puts in the car though the less noticeable this resistance is...
With regards to the performance it's not just raw numbers that are the difference between a Stage 2+ 997.1 Turbo and the stock cars (in either 997.1 or 997.2 guises). Imagine it like this...
A stock 997.1 Turbo accelerating is like Usian Bolt trying to run waste deep through treacle. A 992.2 PDK Turbo is like running through water, and a Stage II Turbo is like running through air. The car just feels so much more free and smooth as it goes through the revs, it feels like it's not even trying to accelerate.
I think a lot of this may be down to the aftermarket exhausts that reduce back pressure (100 or 200 cell vs stock 600 cell). Obviously Porsche have environmental considerations/targets so don't have this freedom. NOTE: even if you have an aftermarket exhaust, without an ECU remap you won't be taking advantage of this back-pressure benefit (assuming you chose an aftermarket exhaust that reduces back-pressure like the Cargraphic one)
I suppose the more power Porsche puts in the car though the less noticeable this resistance is...
Last edited by Alex_997TT; Dec 4, 2009 at 03:28 AM.
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I am a 997.1 turbo owner and just had a test drive in the 997.2 pdk.Ok,I knew the box would be great and expected the improvement that I found.BUT the handling was definitely better!Apart from better ride and damping,the big difference was the reduced throttle steer!My 997.1 tucks in so much on lift off,that it feels like oversteer.Under high g cornering at speed,it will change lanes just by lifting off!It is certainly not confidence inspiring!My old 996 turbo didn't do that.I also drove a 997GT2 and that handled great,but only when the Pilot Sport Cups were warmed up,which took too long in 7*C ambient.Since there seems to be no good answer to the question of GT2 tyres that don't need warming up alot,it seems that 997.2 pdk is going to be my next car.Besides riding better and being better damped and therefore more comfortable,I will be extremely grateful for the reduced throttle steer/lift off oversteer.Has anyone else found this unnerving in the 997.1 turbo??
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Go get your geometry checked by a specialist ie. Not a Porsche dealer
It shouldn't do that. On a flat road you should be able to full brake or accelerate with no hands on the wheel and it will go dead straight.
It shouldn't do that. On a flat road you should be able to full brake or accelerate with no hands on the wheel and it will go dead straight.
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Braking and accelerating in a straight line is fine-that isn't the problem.It is excessive reaction to throttle on/off in bends-throttle on,car "pushes",throttle off,car tucks in or feels like oversteer.Yes,nearly all cars do this and especially porsche 911,but this 997.1 turbo is worse than any other car in this regard.I believe it is characteristic of this variant.I believe Porsche did a lot of improvements to the 997.2 to reduce this,but the 996 was better than the 997.1 in the first place,in this regard.Maybe,997.1 was a retrograde step-maybe some bushes or even the engine mounts were too soft.If you read road tests,the testers often refer to the car "lurching" in to the corner,or "excessive movement"-I believe it is this throttle steer problem that they are referring to.Sometimes they say that the car understeers too much when applying power and oversteers on lift off.The 996 turbo didn't do that.
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You should maintain constant speed throughout a bend - that gives you the most grip. Throttle on/off reduces the grip and in a turbo car such changes in gas pedal position can invoke a sudden change in speed due to the turbos kicking in. You can of course throttle steer out of a corner but again it's harder to control than in a normally aspirated car by the turbos very nature. Bigger the lag the harder it is to judge. I personally found that after a 997.1 engine tune with free flowing exhaust/air-filer that lag was cut in half and the car behaved much more like a NA car.
As with all handing issue though upgrading your suspension components and changing you geo should make a big difference to how you want the car to behave in corners and on straights. Take it to a suspension expert and they will be able to transform the car way beyond a 997.2 stock Turbo at a fraction of the money you would spending trading up.
As with all handing issue though upgrading your suspension components and changing you geo should make a big difference to how you want the car to behave in corners and on straights. Take it to a suspension expert and they will be able to transform the car way beyond a 997.2 stock Turbo at a fraction of the money you would spending trading up.
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Yes,steady throttle is best,then accelerate out.But,on the road,when driving at 7 or 8 tenths,this isn't always possible-bends tighten unexpextedly,the car one is following might back off etc.Anyway,I have upgraded to a 997.2,picking it up next week.We'll see if I need handling upgrades to that in due course.....
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One interesting note -- EVEN in manual mode if the driver brings the car to redline the car will NOT over rev . It will shift by itself no matter what to avoid engine overev going up gears . It also will ignore any driver command downshifting that coild cause an over rev . This feature alone is worth PDK - as the money shift is an impossibility.
Great Writeup btw!
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2010 PDK Turbo: test drive by gen1 owner
Just got back from dropping my Turbo off for it's 1st service at my OPC.
Sitting on the forecourt was a fully optioned black PDK Turbo demo car (with flappy paddle shifters), so I asked for a quick test drive.
First off the sales guy warned me this gen Turbo was MUCH more tail happy than the gen 1 version. He wasn't wrong! PSM wasn't even flashing and we were getting the back out around little roundabouts. So THIS is why the motoring press like the car a lot more!
Change up between gears is VERY impressive, you just feel a momentary blip and then you are off again. You can get up to very high speed very quickly because of this. For me, a manual gear change acts as separators between speed bands. Hard acceleration in 4th for example and you know you are doing very illegal speeds. With PDK in auto mode there isn't this mental barrier distinction to keep your license in tact. I would be very worried about court appearances in this car!
Compared to my modified gen 1 Turbo, the new car is still noticeably slower, quieter, and feels less tight. I think I need more time at Silverstone though next week to form a complete opinion of the new suspension. Plus I am yet to play on the launch control which I am very sure will be mightily impressive. So for me, this is wouldn't be a 'trade up'. I think for stock gen 1 Turbo owners (especially those that have Tiptronic and old PCM) then yes it's a 10% better car all round and worthy of consideration.
More to come when I do my free track experience day at Silverstone in a PDK Turbo next week....
Just got back from dropping my Turbo off for it's 1st service at my OPC.
Sitting on the forecourt was a fully optioned black PDK Turbo demo car (with flappy paddle shifters), so I asked for a quick test drive.
First off the sales guy warned me this gen Turbo was MUCH more tail happy than the gen 1 version. He wasn't wrong! PSM wasn't even flashing and we were getting the back out around little roundabouts. So THIS is why the motoring press like the car a lot more!
Change up between gears is VERY impressive, you just feel a momentary blip and then you are off again. You can get up to very high speed very quickly because of this. For me, a manual gear change acts as separators between speed bands. Hard acceleration in 4th for example and you know you are doing very illegal speeds. With PDK in auto mode there isn't this mental barrier distinction to keep your license in tact. I would be very worried about court appearances in this car!
Compared to my modified gen 1 Turbo, the new car is still noticeably slower, quieter, and feels less tight. I think I need more time at Silverstone though next week to form a complete opinion of the new suspension. Plus I am yet to play on the launch control which I am very sure will be mightily impressive. So for me, this is wouldn't be a 'trade up'. I think for stock gen 1 Turbo owners (especially those that have Tiptronic and old PCM) then yes it's a 10% better car all round and worthy of consideration.
More to come when I do my free track experience day at Silverstone in a PDK Turbo next week....
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I agree with what you said about the downshifts, but as for the up shifts if the car is in Sport Plus mode with PSM off and in manual mode it wont upshift automaticlly unless the kick down button is pressed but if u floor it without the kick down it will overrev
Great Writeup btw!
Great Writeup btw!
Last edited by thebland; Mar 10, 2011 at 03:39 AM.
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