...and Autocar, and Car, and Road & Track, and 5th Gear, and Evo for both generations of the 997 Turbo (yep, go read the new issue where the GT-R is still chosen over the latest Turbo and the R8 V10, even though the Turbo kicks the GT-R in the nads in a straight line). Even the German mags, which are usually pro-Porsche, have rated the GT-R higher and/or faster.
Would I be presumptuous to think you would buy a Cayenne diesel, were one offered here, over the GT-R? In any event, we are not discussing your own personal preference. We are objectively evaluating pricing, performance, and residuals. You made the claim that the base 997 S is comparabe in performance to the GT-R, yet even one with optional PDK and ceramic brakes and god knows what else was killed on Silverstone by a relatively underperforming GT-R. An optioned-up base 997 would likely still be killed by the GT-R.

No, they said their by-then "old" 997.1 Turbo was 16 seconds faster than the GT-R despite the overwhelming international press coverage, including by publications based in none other than Stuttgart, pointing the exact opposite: the GT-R is clearly faster.

If that is so, then how did those GT-R owners make posts in 2008 that they had signed the waiver?? Did they miraculously manipulate forum date stamps or otherwise travel through time to achieve that?

Considering that even Toyota will require you to acknowledge that the warranty provisions on something as lowly as a Corolla are made knowledgeable to you, that's pretty hard to believe.

I will say a single case out of more than half a dozen doesn't prove anything. That's a huge if. If the 997S can beat it in 1/2 of all tests (which would be indicative that the two really are quite equal), then you might have a legitimate case to cling to "doubt." I think the fact that a GT-R which can't even break into the 11's with an LC start and nearly gets beaten in a head to head dragrace against a 997S, yet clobbers it by more than 4 seconds around Silverstone on the same day by an experienced Porsche driver, should tell you the GT-R is convincingly faster.

You just answered your own ill-formed question: Porsche driver's don't care all that much about numbers. If they did, 997 owners would all be driving Z06's. But they don't.

Is it a requirement to make misleading or otherwise false statements? Because that is what you've been doing in this entire thread. Love doesn't have to make you blind to the fact that in test after test, the GT-R has been shown to be faster than the 997 S, and in some same-day tests faster than even the 997.2 GT3. The logical question from this is: Do you honestly think the 997 S is as fast as the GT3? Why do you believe this?

 

Everything is priced higher in Europe, so your argument is once again bogus. Sport Auto's GT-R had a base (and final) price of 83.5k euro. The 997S they tested had a base price starting at 94.0k euro. The actual test vehicle, equipped with PDK, sport suspension, ceramic brakes and Pilot Sport Cups, came in at 119.3k euro. And it was 12 seconds slower on the 'Ring. Wanna bet the base 997S w/o performance options would be slower still?

Like Porsche got RMS, intermediate shafts, dropped cylinder liners, crumbling/cracking PCCB right the first time around. Getting a single engine replacement is one thing. Having multiple trips to the dealer for multiple RMS "fixes" is quite another. You don't think that's inconvenient? Glass houses and all that.

Would you rather have Nissan proactively replace engines (even on cars that have been modified) or play the wait/blame game like BMW and Porsche did with theirs?

Anyway, the post to which you replies was talking about UK car, against which you have a mountain to argue. Are you really sure you want to do that? Just an idea of what you're up against:
http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=20214

 

Those tests are profit driven hype with cars which have already raised questionable issues . Both auto car and edmunds clearly describes "launch control " yet Nissan claims it's a snow device . (57 sec to 1.04 ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDoJdQXmwu8

There are a lot of written documents which claim truth despite errors,contradictions , and supporting evidence to disprove it (ie Porsches claim) .. Nissan seems to dish out enough where most will agree (including myself) that it's a respectable car in terms of performance . Too bad one can not attain that performance under the guideliness OR have the reliability history to match .
What good is a fast car if it sits in service?


Another generalization.
Do you know what most people care about ? Whether or not someone is lying in his face and that's how many who bought the Nissan and used "launch control" and ended up with a broken car felt. That is also how the Porsche testers may have felt too when the numbers were so different and they were told to get driving lesons.


Porsche simply defended their car . They did not build the car with ad campaign to beat the Nissan . That was my point .. Did you expect Porsche not to respond ?

The 997S and Gt3 are not the same . It has been discussed that a 997S with a few mods and PDK might come close enough to a Gt3 but without some of the raw driving feel. The Gtr on the other hand is AWD , heavy, and even though its fast .. is bloated enough to drive more disconnected -even though its fast . How fast ? Depends on who one asks . Depends if the car is working and not in recall or service. Depends if Launch conttrol is even a choice . Depends on whether one wants to risk the waranty. Depends on so many factors being ideal simultaneously .

 

A 996 RMS discussion ? If Nissan did 1/10 of what Porsche did to keep those cars running while on warranty .. but they didn't....

Besides .. the Gtr's mechanical problems are still ongoing with recalls in Europe and denial of launch control . Nissan did one thing though.. they changed the setting and threw down this disclosure waiver .

BTW .. a 996 costs half as much as an 09 Gtr. That's not a huge gap .
I wonder when a gtr will be worth 32K.

My guess --5 years .. no warranty. a new Gtr will be better. the car will be dated. and in many ways .. it will be reduced to a once great car .. but now just a cousin of the Sentra and Altima.

 

The cars used by Car and Evo (against the GT3 and GT2) were customer cars. How is that questionable? The R&T car was about as fast as customer cars in a straight line too.

Show me a lot of written documents supporting your claim that the 997S is as fast as the GT-R. Here's at least one article explaining why Porsche could not replicate Nissan's time:
http://www.insideline.com/nissan/gt-...g-lessons.html
Some more detail:
http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index....dpost&p=456799

Your claim that Nissan didn't inspect the car seems bogus as well.

The sales figures tell me most Porsche owners don't give a rat's *** that a Z06 is faster. In North America, Porsche sold 8746 911's in the last half of 2009. GM sold 3461 Z06's in the entire year. Factor in global sales (where Z06 sales are microscopic), and it should be patently obvious that Porsche owners are not too bothered about their cars being slower than the Z06.

I expected Porsche to respond with a 997 Turbo that would demolish the GT-R on the 'Ring. That hasn't happened.

Well, Sport Auto drove a 997S with a few mods (PDK, sport suspension, PCCB, MPSC's) and it was slower on both Hockenheim and the Nordschleife than the GT3. Base 997S vs GT3? Don't make me laugh.
Again, you were talking about the 997S because you thought it cost the same as the GT-R. It doesn't. The base 997 is closer. Therefore, your calculations on residuals (and assessment of relative performance) is faulty.

 

Do you seriously want to bring up 997 RMS discussions? Go ahead, tell me to bring it. I'm quite sure you will not enjoy it.
You were talking about Nissan not getting it right the first time. So what you're saying is that Porsche only finally "got it right the first time" with the 997.
Um...Nissan are proactively replacing all of those Euro engines (even when modified) instead of passively waiting for problems to occur, unlike Porsche did with RMS. How is that not 1/10th?

 

[quote=Guibo;2730760]Do you seriously want to bring up 997 RMS discussions? quote]

I did not bring up the 996 RMS. You did and still continue to do do.
I had no intention of even discussing the 996.

 

Of course you wouldn't want to bring it up. In a discussion about who got what right/wrong the first time around (which you did bring up), you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

 

You are missing my entire point . Any time an auto journalist writes something --whether its personal or profit -- bias is present .

Data can be swayed to interpretations supporting any view the biased author wants .
I'll give a few examples --low fat Vs low carb , Fox news Vs Cnn ..half empty vs half full .. cheating husband vs recovering sex addict.. launch control Vs snow device .. customers car Vs selected car for that article .. and the best of all .. "Godzilla Vs the mighty 911 Turbo" . pick any opposing debate with data .. any open it up to be interpreted any way one wants .

In short --multiple truths can decribe the same reality .

In this case --the Gtr launch was met with ENORMOUS press. Press which is driven by $$$$$$$ (profit).

I have yet to say that the GTR is an awful car .. It's not what the Gtr is .. but moreso what the GTR isn't ---

It is not the media illusion which exists in the fantasy created for you . Otherwise ..NO transmissions woild have ever broke.. Nissan would be encouraging hard driving .. and back it up. and these waivers would noy exist.

The FACT is --- the reality of the whole Gtr package .. differs from the fantasy of it being so great, so positive, so perfect, .. so undefeated in every realm from how it drives to when it drives .. to how Nissan wants it to drive.

 

And Evo's driver Chris Harris is biased toward Porsche (having owned them and pushing hard for the GT3 to win the latest eCOTY). He openly wrote that he is "someone who tends to live and breathe Porsche." Evo have selected Porsche as Car of the Year more than any other marque. How does this make them biased in favor of Nissan??
Yet he was faster in the customer GT-R which was fresh off the boat and not even broken in yet.

"In short --multiple truths can decribe the same reality ."
How do multiple truths describe the reality (in your mind) that the 997S is as fast as the GT-R? There isn't even a singular, independent truth pointing to that. And you claim to value independent verification. Porsche has a vested interest in all of this (to sell Porsches), so there isn't a singular truth supporting your belief. Multiple truths describe a reality in which the GT-R crushes a 997S loaded up with higher-performance goodies.

 

I keep saying .. those are porsches numbers . I keep saying that they only raise doubt.

I also say .. if Porsche is correct .. the 997S is faster .

I never claimed that either Nissan or Porsche were correct.
But I do say that the gap is wide enough to look for the truth .
If you belive that the truth lies in Edumds , Auto car , Evo, Etc .. Instead of the real world applications . . then that is precisely what the advertisers want.

But if you are willing to question .. and accept that those broken Nissan cars were NOT part of their GTR fantasy description .. then maybe you can accept that their numbers may be flawed too .

 

In the real-world, on real roads, the GT-R is faster and doesn't suffer from dropped cylinder liners, repeated RMS, IMS, and Porsche likewise stipulates driver conduct which could void the warranty, even on cars that are ostensibly designed for track use.

Are you familiar with modus tollens logic? It goes something along the lines of:
If P, then Q.
!Q --> !P
In this case, P="If Porsche is correct" and Q = "the 997S is faster."
The overwhelming evidence points to !Q (ie, the 997S is not faster). The logical conclusion is that Porsche is not correct. They may be correct with an ill-maintained car with bad alignment, but that is hardly representative of Nissan's testing method. And thus you can't really claim that Nissan were lying.

 

Lets see.....

regardless of price difference, which would you take? A porsche 997 turbo or a NISSAN GT-R?

If all you want is numbers, go get a 15k car and spend 50k on mods. Will DESTROY the GT-R in every way possible.

 

GTR > TURBO
i'd still rather have a turbo and i've had both

 

yrralis1 keeps mentioning a "waiver" as if I'm losing something by signing it.

And yes, I signed mine in Aug '08. So when do you think they were introduced?

The overwhelming lack of knowledge has bored me...

Guibo has pretty much addressed the concerns that were brought up... But yrralis1 keeps moving the discussion.

No longer a good debate. He hasn't replied to many of the counterpoints...