11 Turbo S or GT2
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1) The argument here seems to be that I am wrong because the stock 997.1 Turbo is an incredibly fast car. Please remember I agree with that completely: the 997.1 Turbo is very fast as is. Its ring time of 7:52 is the fastest in the world for a daily driver, still.
2) However --- my point is this: Given that stupendous power, could the stock Turbo be much better? And the answer is, without a doubt, yes, both subjectively and objectively. Objectively, the revised 997.2 Turbo beats the 997.1 by a rumored 10 seconds at the ring, this is a lifetime of difference, even given the fact that 997.2 has a more powerful engine, and PDK may or may not be a factor. I was very sad when I read this.
3) I know that some people (not Paul ha - ha) get upset because of my criticism of the Turbo's stock suspension. Please don't take it so personal; your taste is fine and I am not criticizing it. That said, I will continue to state my observation and be very critical, not of anyone's perception, but of the excessive weight transfer of the Turbo, which is a fact, whether I look at myself in the mirror or not.
Porsche recognized the mistake they made with 997.1 Turbo and IIRC even acknowledged the softness criticism in one of the mag interviews when 997.2 came out. So I am not alone. It is why 997.2 Turbo has both stiffer spring and stiffer sway bar than 997.1. Whether I look at myself in the mirror or not is irrelevent, this fact is.
4) When I had a 3 hour test drive in LA canyons and was switching back and forth between the Turbo and GT3: The Turbo would blow away the 3 in the straight, but any curve, low speed, high speed, any speed, Turbo was left in the dust by GT3 -- brutal. I would encourage anyone to test drive the GT3 for the education of it. Not just drive, but drive safely at the limits - you cannot tell a car's behavior unless you test at limits. If you're like me, your heart will be broken; there is a huge difference in subjective feel between the 2 cars. In addition, pay close attention to the comments of people who have owned both GT2 and Turbo here. (PM them for opinions. They might be too shy to be too brutal publicly.
)The point is NOT to make the Turbo a GT3, that would be pointless. It is to make the Turbo a "better" car, relatively (LOL). This means stiffer springs, or KW or Bilstein for street, Moton for track.
Anyways, as i love a good rally and as you have volunteered to jump on the hook without any real bait (joking ok), here i go....for entertainment purposes more so anything else...so, hope you dont mind
. So i will answer in number to your post ok.1) Its not really a right or wrong thing...so no argument intended
....well from me anyway. Yep the 997tt.1 was deemed fast at the time....and, on its day....yet still had its critics....as always. But we all know things can change such as aftermarket mods and P's evolution to make a good thing even better again. Eg: AM Suspension mods removing some of the comfort of the car whilst sharpening it up and, P's evolution (of the .2tt) making the .1tt better again whilst retaining the daily driver comforts....leaving out the ever so contentious issue of the new DFI engine VS the traditional Mezger unit (of course )....the car drives better out of the box everywhere....no question . 2) Well it goes without saying P would make the .2 better than .1 and i imagine when the 991 tt hits the deck everyone will be writing about the .2tt's misgivings in comparison to the newer and undoubtedly better car (991 tt)
. Ok, im Jumping the gun here a bit with the 991 but lets face it P has never made any new car worse...to my knowledge?3) To put you at ease Im definitely not taking it personal can
. I quite like a good debate and i can see you love one too .And P making a mistake? Cmon. That was just a marketing ploy
. They responded to the critics but mainly because they had GTR35 square up their backsides and had to level the scales again. But if it wasnt for the GTR....well...hmmm...they may not have done as much as they did....and then brag about it.4) Firstly i don't think there is any question that the turbo's handling couldn't be improved by a little fettling here and there. Same goes for any P. The issue here is with (re the tt in particular) any fettling you do remove some of the cars original design intentions...namely comfort....and, any such (minor) gains (time-wise on a circuit) really aren't worth it if its a DD as it compromises the comfort level and its reputation as the worlds most livable supercar..
I'm sure thats why P make a tt, a Gt2 and a Gt3.....all horses that are basically perfectly matched to their courses (or design intentions). So it comes down to what i originally said: If the car is a weekend warrior then don't screw around (if you can afford it that is) , get a GT2 as first choice or, a tt if you want need a back seat, 4wd and a few standard features the GT2 lists as expensive options.. then do basically what you have done with the stiffer suspension set up...but mainly for the benefit of driving on fast A roads or track use as a weekend warrior. Now If the car is a daily driver and you are using B roads a lot then the TT is a no brainer left with stock pasm.The Traqmate data acquisition system makes a wonderful Christmas present for anyone having trouble driving the Turbo on the track. I would strongly suggest data acquisition and a driving school to anyone before jumping into major suspension modifications. The data can really be eye opening.
. I would strongly suggest data acquisition and a driving school to anyone before jumping into major suspension modifications. The data can really be eye opening.. Somethings can make all the difference .
Last edited by speed21; Dec 20, 2010 at 05:36 AM.
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Thanks everyone for all the feedback and recommendations. This will be my first 911 (but I doubt my last). I'm going to get a 6 speed Turbo in GT Silver / black because I feel like I am going to drive this car almost every day on the street, and maybe two or three times a year on the track. I'm sure at some point I will also have a 911 GT in the garage as well at some point.
I'll post a pic as soon as it arrives in the driveway.
I'll post a pic as soon as it arrives in the driveway.
. Congratulations on your choice of car, transmission, and colors!! Cant wait to see the pics..
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Very well put!
I had an 08 TT and drove it for about a year stock than I put a GIAC upgrade into it, then Bilsteins and front and rear Sways all with the intention of reducing the body motion and poor handling.
I drove AGGRESSIVELY an 08 GT3RS and fell in love with the handling and all the sensations it gave me but didn't want to give up the turbo acceleration.
An 08 GT2 became available and after I drove it, I fell in love. It was a marriage of the GT3RS and the TT. PERFECT. I bought it.
I have taken many Skip Barber racing courses and drove their Formula cars at Lime Rock and this was the closest car I have ever drive to that sensation.
I have also driven various Ferrari's, a Gallardo, a Callaway Corvette, an Audi R8, a McClaren Mercedes, a Corvette ZO 6 and this was by far and away the best car I have ever driven.
I drove the TT as a DD and as soon long as there is no snow on the ground, I will be driving the GT2 as a DD too. It is a little less comfortable but worth the sensations it gives back.
I can't think of any car that I would take over this car.
I had an 08 TT and drove it for about a year stock than I put a GIAC upgrade into it, then Bilsteins and front and rear Sways all with the intention of reducing the body motion and poor handling.
I drove AGGRESSIVELY an 08 GT3RS and fell in love with the handling and all the sensations it gave me but didn't want to give up the turbo acceleration.
An 08 GT2 became available and after I drove it, I fell in love. It was a marriage of the GT3RS and the TT. PERFECT. I bought it.
I have taken many Skip Barber racing courses and drove their Formula cars at Lime Rock and this was the closest car I have ever drive to that sensation.
I have also driven various Ferrari's, a Gallardo, a Callaway Corvette, an Audi R8, a McClaren Mercedes, a Corvette ZO 6 and this was by far and away the best car I have ever driven.
I drove the TT as a DD and as soon long as there is no snow on the ground, I will be driving the GT2 as a DD too. It is a little less comfortable but worth the sensations it gives back.
I can't think of any car that I would take over this car.
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Going back to the differences between the 997.1 turbo and 997.2 turbo.The 997.2 has active engine mounts and also,I believe that the DFI engine has a lower c of g and might be lighter than the earlier car's Metzger engine.These improvements are helpful to handling even if the spring rates are stil on the soft side.Of course,the 997.2 has far more "improvements" for better handling.However,I predict that the next,991 turbo,when it comes out,will be a match for the 997 GT2 for lap times and the next GT2 will be the best yet,but I think we'll have to wait 3-4 years before that comes out....
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Having driven a 997 GT2 and a TT I can tell you they are very, very different cars. The GT2 is an extremely precise automobile. The TT, IMO, is sloppy in comparison (handling and high speed stability). They are both very fast and very quick. If I had the option to buy either one I'd purchase the GT2 as it is, in my humble opinion, a very rare car.
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The Turbo;'s 4wd system also holds an advantage with traction/acceleration coming out of corners.
Subjectively, what I prefer in the Turbo is that the front end "feels" more stable, whereas GT2/GT3's front end could have that eery light sensation at times, for example while accelerating out of corners. But this is strictly a subjective observation on my part.
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I've noticed the TT front end floaty at 150+ as well and the steering definitely requiring two hands locked steady on the wheel..seems a bit more dead space play noticeable which is my criticism..having not experienced a GT2/GT3 at such comparative speeds.
Braking early is key to a turn in and throttle steering a must learned trait in driving.
I've choked it up to reason heavy rear end weight distribution?
Should it feel stable? and to what degree do you describe the Turbo as "stable" perhaps I need it to be checked out? I have about a little over 8K miles now.
Braking early is key to a turn in and throttle steering a must learned trait in driving.
I've choked it up to reason heavy rear end weight distribution?
Should it feel stable? and to what degree do you describe the Turbo as "stable" perhaps I need it to be checked out? I have about a little over 8K miles now.
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I've noticed the TT front end floaty at 150+ as well and the steering definitely requiring two hands locked steady on the wheel..seems a bit more dead space play noticeable which is my criticism..having not experienced a GT2/GT3 at such comparative speeds.
Braking early is key to a turn in and throttle steering a must learned trait in driving.
I've choked it up to reason heavy rear end weight distribution?
Should it feel stable? and to what degree do you describe the Turbo as "stable" perhaps I need it to be checked out? I have about a little over 8K miles now.
Braking early is key to a turn in and throttle steering a must learned trait in driving.
I've choked it up to reason heavy rear end weight distribution?
Should it feel stable? and to what degree do you describe the Turbo as "stable" perhaps I need it to be checked out? I have about a little over 8K miles now.
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Hi Casey, the GT2?
What I meant is given equal high power, say 700+, between a GT2 and a Turbo, the Turbo will be faster off line because of 4wd traction. A 2wd car with stock tires and that much power will spin rear tires. That's true, no?
What I meant is given equal high power, say 700+, between a GT2 and a Turbo, the Turbo will be faster off line because of 4wd traction. A 2wd car with stock tires and that much power will spin rear tires. That's true, no?
Last edited by cannga; Dec 23, 2010 at 08:49 AM.
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Could not agree with you more sir, I've taken the car up to 170 and you have to correct the car the whole way passed 150, car moves side to side like there is no tomorrow, way to light on the front, is there a way to create more downforce on the front of the car? Maybe gt3 front splitter?
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An interesting note on 997.1 vs 997.2 - I have spoken with numerous owners of the .2 (visa vie 6 Speedonline) and have been advised that the total performance difference is negligible from a daily driving experience. Stated directly, I am advised by the owners not to trade my 08' TT on an 11' but rather to wait for the next iteration...
The net effect was an economic "permission slip" to trade my AMG CLS 63 last month on a 2011 Cayenne Turbo
The net effect was an economic "permission slip" to trade my AMG CLS 63 last month on a 2011 Cayenne Turbo
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Does a Turbo S hold it's value better than a TT? I know they are a limited edition. I'll likely put 3K miles a year on it.
I found one and am about ready to pull the trigger. Fortunately, my wife simply rolled her eyes when I showed her the out the door price!
I found one and am about ready to pull the trigger. Fortunately, my wife simply rolled her eyes when I showed her the out the door price!