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Custom tuning w/ By Design - lots of power - need new clutch

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997 Turbo / GT2 2006–2012 Turbo discussion on the 997 model Porsche 911 Twin Turbo.

Custom tuning w/ By Design - lots of power - need new clutch

 
  #136  
Old 07-25-2018, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Between 55-60 psi! Even more without a few tricks. Looking forward to newest logs bud!

Hmmm...wonder who predicted this?

BTW I have the engine modeled with Xona (GT30) Looks pretty good, not that its anything new. But now I have predictions for almost everything including turbine inlet pressure. I can tell ya how BBB's engine pumping work is looking like now
 

Last edited by M3 Maestro; 07-25-2018 at 01:34 PM.
  #137  
Old 07-25-2018, 01:37 PM
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You are our hero bud and always come correct! For the record we had sensors in a car and I asked Maestro what he thought or guessed. He proceeded to ask me a few questions and even about temps. Right on the dot lol!
 
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  #138  
Old 07-25-2018, 02:18 PM
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I appreciate the opportunity to help and enjoy doing the simulations. Good excuse to grow my datalog collection lol

Seriously I learn something new daily about this platform on the forum and or through contacts I have made on the forum. The constant gain in collective knowledge is what keeps me engaged and coming back. Once learning levels off then it becomes boring. Just happy to be part of it.

Enjoy the car 08957
 
  #139  
Old 07-25-2018, 10:06 PM
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I have been down this road many times on many cars

I am seriously having the feeling in my gut that the 60mm OD exhaust outlet pipes which are ideal for stock turbo cars making 400 - 500 whp is really starting to effect me at the 750 whp level

I am feeling that with a much greater boost level at 7,000 rpms - 23 psi vs 14 psi with the stock turbo and flowing about 30% more air through the pipe I am really limiting the top end power. The stock turbo is falling off on air flow as it approaches red line and with these TiAL By Design Turbos they just keep pumping out more and more air as the car is revving more and more - this is creating more and more back pressure than with the stock turbos - mostly before the turbos at the manifold but also after the turbo with another few psi. Any reduction in back pressure will aide performance


Just my two cents and personal opinion from tuning lots of other kinds of turbo cars with big power but I never used to like to see restrictions in the exhaust flow on cars making significantly more power than stock


I am going to have to upgrade this to a full 70mm system

Basically - I am running like two 375 whp Subaru STI engines and each one would be better off with a full 70mm exhaust than with a 2.3" OD 60 mm tip exhaust

Of course that same Subaru would be very happy with that 60mm system at 250 whp or 500 whp Porsche on the stock turbo with twin 60mm tips

Here is a informative article from back in the day

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...ust-test-tech/

When I am done with exploring this theory I will have M3 run another comparison to see how this change in hardware has effected back pressure and power production and 60 to 100 mph acceleration
 

Last edited by 08957; 07-26-2018 at 12:42 AM.
  #140  
Old 07-25-2018, 11:42 PM
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Who ever thought other wise....well I do not know what to say.

One of the 1st mods especially on a turbo car is to get rid of any restriction and make the exhaust exit the turbos as quickly as possible.

You can have a 5” before the 2.5” tip, but if it all has to exit out of that 2.5” tip, you were almost better off having a full 2.5” exhaust system.

JOHN at Speedtech has mentioned that if someone wants a quieter exhaust & they have a 3”, one of the just many ways his systems can accommodate is he they can just get his 2.5” exhaust tip to replace his 3”. He does mention that at low power it is alright and you “only” lose around 15whp in the mid range. That 15whp is only when the car is around 450whp, but John said the higher up you go that number goes up.

I made sure that I had a true 3”, catless (mufflerless as well, is his race version lol) with TRUE 3” or larger tips WITH NO necking down anywhere. Did the same with my Speedtech on my 996T and back in the Supra days ran 3.5” y off of my down pipe (which was a 4” elbow)with one side going into my stock exhaust and the other into a QTP electric cutout that shot straight to the ground right off of my down pipe.

Even if your at your turbo flow limit, your whole system effiency would increase.

Originally Posted by 08957 View Post
I have been down this road many times on many cars

I am seriously having the feeling in my gut that the 60mm OD exhaust outlet pipes which are ideal for stock turbo cars making 400 whp is really starting to effect me at the 750 whp level

I am feeling that with a much greater boost level at 7,000 rpms - 23 psi vs 14 psi with the stock turbo and flowing about 30% more air through the pipe I am really limiting the top end power. The stock turbo is falling off on air flow as it approaches red line and with these TiAL By Design Turbos they just keep pumping out more and more air as the car is revving more and more - this is creating more and more back pressure than with the stock turbos - mostly before the turbos at the manifold but also after the turbo with another few psi. Any reduction in back pressure will aide performance


Just my two cents and personal opinion from tuning lots of other kinds of turbo cars with big power but I never used to like to see restrictions in the exhaust flow on cars making significantly more power than stock


I am going to have to upgrade this to a full 70mm system

Basically - I am running like two 375 whp Subaru STI engines and each one would be better off with a full 70mm exhaust than with a 2.3" OD 60 mm tip exhaust

Of course that same Subaru would be very happy with that 60mm system at 250 whp or 500 whp Porsche on the stock turbo with twin 60mm tips

Here is a informative article from back in the day

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...ust-test-tech/

When I am done with exploring this theory I will have M3 run another comparison to see how this change in hardware has effected back pressure and power production and 60 to 100 mph acceleration
 
  #141  
Old 07-26-2018, 12:22 AM
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If the stock tip pipes were actually a true 2.5" then the situation would be better but in reality the ID is closer to 2.27 " or 57.78mm

As I have suggested this being a dual tip system it works really well on stock turbo cars and the sound is perfect with zero drone in the cabin and a civilized driving experience which is really ideal in every respect with an amazing sound that can not be beat

When you convert to a clipped turbine wheel and a highly tuned ecu the sound becomes much more muted and stock like and in addition as you begin to push to higher air flow which is exceeding the stock turbo air flow at 7,000 rpms by some 30% more this means that the small pipes are filled with a lot of hot air

As a general rule of thumb in setting up turbo cars I like to see every connection and pipe on the hot side larger than the smallest pipe on the cold side

This is obvious because when the air is drawn in it is colder and only air - when it leaves the engine it includes combustion gasses and is much hotter and has expanded greatly

The 70mm systems are not true 3" set ups either but should be a significant enhancement over the 60mm at the power levels I have achieved

My problem is that I am a power junkie and one taste of this Europipe power and sound has set me down a path of much more intensive modifications than I was originally planning

Without any doubt in my many years of car modification and design the Europipe is the best made, best designed and best executed exhaust system of any kind I have ever seen - bar none. It is an honor to have such a piece of art created by true craftsmen on my vehicle. In a world filled with imperfection, compromises and defects Europipe is at the pinnacle of exhaust design and quality in my opinion. In addition, the customer service, after sale attention and support is second to none.

At the time of my original purchase I did not want a 70mm system on the stock turbos as I did not want to experience cabin drone and unwanted sounds for nominal gains of only a few hp over a more quiet 60mm system

Sadly my plans have changed and now I have outgrown the original exhaust system I selected

I had originally planned to take the car to the track this coming week but now my experimentation will have to wait another couple of weeks until I can arrange to secure and install the new larger exhaust system

My hope in doing this is to obtain "X" amount of power with less timing and boost than would otherwise be needed and with less back pressure and better cylinder evacuation between combustion cycles which is crucial to volumetric efficiency and stability of the tune

I remain firmly committed to running high flow cats and I believe that the technology on high quality cats has advanced to the point that the power loss and back pressure from a properly sized motorsports cat is not significant. I am not willing to deal with fumes, smells and odors from a fine car like a 997. I believe with the technology in high performance cats now that you can have your cake and eat it too. Meanwhile doing your part to reduce harmful exhaust emissions from coming out of your tail pipe and making this globe more polluted than it already is. One of the coolest things I loved about buying a 997 turbo was the OEM's claim that when driving a turbo in city traffic the air going out your tail pipes is cleaner than the air going in your air filter. While many people do not care about doing their part to try to reduce emissions I think we all have an obligation to be good citizens - just my personal opinion

I think my power results thus far basically on preliminary tuning and a small exhaust pipe show the tremendous power that can be made through the Europipe highflow cats and how well they work in practice
 

Last edited by 08957; 07-26-2018 at 12:39 AM.
  #142  
Old 07-26-2018, 05:10 AM
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To someone like myself that’s just doing a tune/exhaust and MAYBE Ipd stuff and coolers of course a tune. Is something like EP 2 a good option or too opened up. ?
does the tts WANT that restriction ?

Am I gaining somewhere and losing power other places in the powerband?

i believe that’s why Stef shaves out the stick tips so that isn’t the restrictive part
 
  #143  
Old 07-26-2018, 07:16 AM
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Full bolt on with stock turbos you will have a lot of acceptable exhaust options EP stage 1 being one of them. 08957's data when he had stock turbos tuned by Sam was fine on the Stage 1. I wouldn't worry too much, pick the one you like the most on the stock turbo airflow

I also think Europipe modifies the stock tips only their stage 2, could be wrong.
 
  #144  
Old 07-26-2018, 08:46 AM
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I'm somewhat puzzled that the aftermarket exhaust becomes the limiting factor when the backpressure from the turbos themselves are the "weak link". If the restriction point is the turbo then why does the exhaust size have so much effect? I understand that you always want to have low resistance after the turbo but if the turbo is the bottleneck then I'm still a little puzzled, lol. C'mon Maestro - explain!
 
  #145  
Old 07-26-2018, 08:47 AM
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Todd had explained years ago that in order to generate the higher boost on the vtgs the vanes had to be clamped down fairly tightly which increased heat/backpressure in a big way. I know that you can hold 23psi all the way to 7k rpm but has anyone shown that you actually make any more power above 6k rpm with higher boost on vtgs????
 
  #146  
Old 07-26-2018, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by M3 Maestro View Post
If I was in this business I can guarantee I would have characterized the entire exhaust not just one location. For example on your own product, you want to know pressure before and after the cat (gives you delta pressure of cats), in and out of the mufflers (gives you delta pressure of mufflers), in the crossover etc to know where and what all your losses are so you can properly optimize.
I’ve done all of these pressure tests in the past you’ve mentioned here. We’ve build and tested 19 prototype exhausts for the 997.1 Turbo. Afterwards we also tried different type of cats and no cats. The main losses are the cats, the U-turn or X in the center, the overal diameter of the tubes and the final diameter at the tips.

When you have a full 3inch exhaust with 60mm tips on the exit then the bottleneck are the tips and it becomes a plain 60mm exhaust.
Our EP1 is a 84mm exhaust with 80% of the flow path being 84mm but at the end it is necked down to 60mm to fit the stock tips so its a 60mm exhaust. The determinent factor here is the 60mm bottleneck.

Same applies for the X in the center. Some exhausts use a choking X in the center, some use a large X in the center. The more you choke the airflow at the X the higher the back pressure.

My advise is to do a back pressure test on your favorite exhaust instead of relying on a computer simulation. See you this winter :-)
 
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  #147  
Old 07-26-2018, 09:48 AM
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I agree with the order of highest loss to lowest loss, that's what I would expect. I appreciate you did all the testing, if I was selling exhaust I would have done the same. However with simulation you would have built just one, not 19 LOL. Don't under estimate it. I don't mean that in a bad way, it just the way its done in industry. Its the only way we can do things faster, cheaper, and more accurate to cut down on development (time and cost).

Yeah I'll let everyone know if I measure it. If I DO measure, I'll measure it with piezo rings so its accurate. Just 1 tap per location of interest is not accurate because of dynamics of the flow.

Yet again I'm jumping off the exhaust craziness bus...this may be only 2nd on this platform to freaking intercoolers lol.

Appreciate the discussion no doubt about it but I have to move on.
 
  #148  
Old 07-26-2018, 09:59 AM
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Bogg they are linked not separate, you need to think of these things from a system level not component. It goes back to turbine power. The lower the exhaust restriction the higher turbine power you will be able to achieve. However you will still be limited by the turbine stages efficiency in this case. So I would expect 08957's car, targeting the same boost pressure, would re-balance at a more open vane position with less exhaust restriction. If he wants more boost r then the tuner would re-clamp the vanes to where they are comfortable. However we would NOT be achieving the turbine stages max flow under WOT because to match the power the compressor is requesting we are achieving it by driving higher expansion ratios with clamped vane position. Why because of efficiency as I have said many times. I know because of their experience with fixed geometry/wgt people keep thinking about this in terms of turbine flow...its not turbine flow. This stage flows a lot more than what people realize, its just we can never get there due where the peak turbine power generating capability is.
 
  #149  
Old 07-26-2018, 10:08 AM
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exactly...you can't get there because the vanes have to be clamped down in order to get the higher boost pressure. So effectively the turbine becomes the limiting factor, lol
 
  #150  
Old 07-26-2018, 10:09 AM
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AFTER everything else has been optimized...that is key.
 

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