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Custom tuning w/ By Design - lots of power - need new clutch

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997 Turbo / GT2 2006–2012 Turbo discussion on the 997 model Porsche 911 Twin Turbo.

Custom tuning w/ By Design - lots of power - need new clutch

 
  #121  
Old 07-24-2018, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 08957 View Post
that I am able to pick up another 30 - 50 whp by dropping the cats
Dropping the cats on your Europipe makes it so loud you’ll end up with ear damage.

Lets go back to the facts: Stock exhaust has 0.44 Bar backpressure.

EP with 100 cell cats and stock tips has a maximum pressure of 0.18 Bar on a stock engine.

The alternative 2 1/2 inch X-pipe catless exhaust with stock tips has 0.25 Bar pressure on a stock engine. The X and the small size perforated tubes makes it more restrictive.

Higher exhaust backpressure = higher exhaust temperatures
 
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  #122  
Old 07-24-2018, 07:03 AM
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I have to post this because I woke up to a few messages from fellow members on here asking me if I really think its making this much power .

OK, is the car fast? yes its running pretty good for the parts it has. Does it make 750whp and have another 50hp in there? Well honestly I think for sure the car makes over 700whp, its probably in the 725-750 range depending on what dynojet you throw her on. The graph 08957 has shown has a smoothing of 6, so there is a lot of interpolation going on to smooth it out, the physical data will look more jagged and may achieve a lower number I haven't tried yet. Also I'm guessing some inputs, like temp, tire size etc. He has now provided those so we can update it with those. Sam and him are also still fine tuning the car, its close, may be done by the time I post this. I also have an engine model I have made and can use the datalogs to predict power at engine and at wheels we can compare to. Virtual dyno is backing out power by figuring out how long its taking to accel x weight to x speed. My engine model is predicting power based on engine airflow, desinty, bsfc, ve, etc. I have gotten the same #s from both simulations before on multiple cars (within 1-2HP compared to actual dyno), I haven't tried with 08957's car yet.

As far as exhaust and how much power is left in there. I know Sam is trying to strike the right balance of keeping the car happy with the current EP stage 1. If you really want more, you can move up to the stage 2, you have my predictions there on what the new restriction would be . I think its a good option giving you already have and like their product. Obviously a ton of choices here and I do NOT want to open that can of worms . How much more power? I think if you can pull a honest 740-760whp I would be happy. This is because even if we gain flow after the turbine wheel, we are still dealing with what is happen thru that turbine stage.

Another thing I wanted to add was based on the tons of logs I have seen from all sorts of setups and tuners...I think at this power level we can see 25-50HP swings within the population of cars with same or similar parts. Keep that in mind guys.

That's my advice for the morning
 
  #123  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:29 AM
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The car is running great and it’s a strong one. Had to make some adjustments so it can run over 700 wheel comfortably. Last revision sent! To really know what would happen we would have to try it on this car I agree. At these power levels we run a 70mm System with 76mm downpipes. Just to clarify we have several systems to meet different needs from 60-76mm, HJS 200cel cats, HJS Motorsports 100 and decat. Then SS and Inconel. Not just one 2.5 with 200cel cats I keep hearing about from years ago. Seams others are offering a few options as well All these options from various loved manufacturers are great!
 
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  #124  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:34 AM
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I was present for the dyno of a proto 63.5mm car that was making 725 whp on TopSpeeds dyno through a standard catted Kline setup. We knocked the cats out and redyno’d (no additional tuning needed looking at the logs). The car made 730 whp, but spooled up a few hundred rpm sooner. Not much difference at all.


Sam, let me know when you have some new sauce for the TTS. The current map is quite zippy
 
  #125  
Old 07-24-2018, 10:16 AM
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Guys here is where we have to be careful right? We can't apply this result as a blanket statement across all setups. For example, OK there was a small gain in top end flow, but what is the next bottle neck in the exhaust system? Ideally we would have the exhaust instrumented for pressure in multiple locations then we would know. There is quite a difference between EP stage 1 and stage 2. I expect there would be a difference between the earlier Gen 1 we'll call it Kline at 2.5" to what Sam is having them make now. I do not have restriction data on the newer Kline so I haven't made any predictions.

I have toyed with the idea of modeling my Kline but there is only 24 hour in a day But I can do it. I have modeled lots of stuff for Sam and made predictions...he can speak for the accuracy

Stop telling us how awesome your 991 is...I'm spending too much money already as is Speaking of spending money, we need to get you some upgraded vtgs for the 997 I bet it would be one of the quicker ones, that car runs good.
 
  #126  
Old 07-24-2018, 10:21 AM
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Forgot to say hi Chris! The crack pipe is ready but only if you are ha ha.

Hey Greyson, yes I remember that those were the 100cel cats. I have data of this cars spool characteristics versus decat and also top end power and overall efficiency. I’m happy to see that it’s running pretty good with cats and 08 can decide what ultimately would work best for him all around. That’s the beauty he can decide. Exhaust wars are tired at this point. There are enough cars and information out there for people to choose with more than speculation or opinion as you just pointed out. Custom tuning is an amazing feature that allows us to touch up every car and get the most out of it. Pressures, temperatures VE and even the sounds start to change when you’re making over 700 hp to the wheels. Regarding your new beast we keep peeling back the layers and there’s more underneath ha ha. Ultimately a good thing. The Cobb team are also working on firmware so dealers can pro tune.

Lol Maestro! Always a pleasure and your contributions have always been non-bias/accurate for everyone on here. Let’s just set the record straight that 08’s system for a catted standard system looks pretty great and others do as well. There is no perfect or best exhaust which is why personally I offer several variations. There is variety and they almost all have different characteristics some people love it some people don’t. Personally I think that’s just fine and there room for everyone.
 
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  #127  
Old 07-24-2018, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by M3 Maestro View Post

Stop telling us how awesome your 991 is...I'm spending too much money already as is Speaking of spending money, we need to get you some upgraded vtgs for the 997 I bet it would be one of the quicker ones, that car runs good.


Agreed!


Just geterdone A418t81!
 
  #128  
Old 07-24-2018, 02:53 PM
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start with the DSC box. It will surprise you.


Originally Posted by 08957 View Post
Sam - I would not dispute you on the 700 whp estimate - however I always like to estimate on the low side until I have actual data in front of me

If anyone has a similar car I am drawing 540 grams of air through my maf at this point and we are not done with the tuning if that is any help

All I can say with 100% certainly is I have very fresh Pilot Super Sport tires and it is in the high 70's and 80's here and it takes a lot of power to bust those massive rear tires loose clean in 3rd gear going straight down the highway

The car is starting to act like a high powered Z06 with a cam and a tune - not like a AWD Porsche

To me this means we are making big power

I think some suspension mods are next in line as you have suggested
 
  #129  
Old 07-24-2018, 02:57 PM
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I think the results / dyno sheet speaks for itself

My approach in putting my car together was to focus on the best and most potent intercoolers AMS and turbo inlet hoses and great turbos - the By Design Turbos are KICK ***

Obviously great tuning is a huge part of the results here also

As Sam has said the best exhaust is a straight pipe off the turbo

Obviously every exhaust strikes a balance between sound / quality of construction and smell of what comes out the other end

At this point I am happy with the catted EP1 system but would look to sell the slightly used EP1 system at this point and upgrade to the louder EP2 system - obviously from my results the EP1 system is capable of making some serious power and would be all that anyone needs on the stock turbo IMHO

On the stock turbo the EP1 sounds about right to me although with the modified turbo and tuning the sound is much more quiet and thus the EP2 I think is better suited to bigger turbo cars

When I bought the EP1 a few weeks ago I never intended for any of this to happen but when I blew out my clutch as a result of the increased power I figured I may as well do the turbos at the same time

I do not want to get into exhaust war dramas - there are lots of great exhaust systems out there. The team member that Sam found to install my clutch for me (great guy) had a 996 with a catless Kline and I must say I really impressed with the docile sound at idle and the aggressive tone it had a full throttle - I can see why some folks are fans of those units


For me I want to avoid catless if at all possible because I just can not stand the smell of exhaust fumes and like my clean fresh smelling Porsche leather interior that still smells like new - I have had many catless performance cars in the past - after a while the fumes have an effect


Heck when I grew up all the cars had no cats and they all ran leaded high octane fuel - when you followed a car down the road with a cam you really smelled the unburnt fumes - seems like the stone age now but yes my first car was a 66 Corvair 180 HP turbo - flat six boxer air cooled - 4 speed - lovely car
 

Last edited by 08957; 07-24-2018 at 04:57 PM.
  #130  
Old 07-25-2018, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by M3 Maestro View Post
Guys here is where we have to be careful right? We can't apply this result as a blanket statement across all setups. For example, OK there was a small gain in top end flow, but what is the next bottle neck in the exhaust system? Ideally we would have the exhaust instrumented for pressure in multiple locations then we would know. There is quite a difference between EP stage 1 and stage 2. I expect there would be a difference between the earlier Gen 1 we'll call it Kline at 2.5" to what Sam is having them make now. I do not have restriction data on the newer Kline so I haven't made any predictions.

I have toyed with the idea of modeling my Kline but there is only 24 hour in a day But I can do it. I have modeled lots of stuff for Sam and made predictions...he can speak for the accuracy

Stop telling us how awesome your 991 is...I'm spending too much money already as is Speaking of spending money, we need to get you some upgraded vtgs for the 997 I bet it would be one of the quicker ones, that car runs good.
Why would you guesstimate the exhaust back pressure with a computer program when you can measure it in real life? The stock exhaust even has a bung for it right after the flange at the hottest point with the highest pressure. Find some open road and do several pulls in 4th gear up to redline, that’s all you need.


 
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  #131  
Old 07-25-2018, 06:47 AM
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Stef like I mentioned there is only so much time in a day. The physics based model I have built are for fun on my spare time and I have shared them with other members here who are interested. If I was in this business I can guarantee I would have characterized the entire exhaust not just one location. For example on your own product, you want to know pressure before and after the cat (gives you delta pressure of cats), in and out of the mufflers (gives you delta pressure of mufflers), in the crossover etc to know where and what all your losses are so you can properly optimize. In addition you would like to add in the dynamic pressure so you understand total pressure. I would handle the X pipe designs in a similar fashion. That aside, you were nice enough to post some restriction numbers you have collected. Using the data you have posted for your EP stage 1 and stage 2 I made physics based models to predict exhaust restriction at any horsepower, not just stock. As you know and you stated, the restriction you posted is at stock airflow.

I have thought, again for fun, to take pressure on my own car before winter hits. I'm contemplating going bigger turbos and knowing where the restriction is today is of value to me. I can predict my future exhaust flow thru the engine and then I could assess how my exhaust will performance without spending a penny on parts, just my time. We will see if I find time to do this before winter.

We can get much more complex to gain more accuracy like adding in swirl out of the turbine wheel, turbo speed, vane position, etc which is the correct way. But again I'm not in this business, this is for fun and entertainment though others may disagree of my definition of fun I'll let you guys know if I measure mine before winter
 
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Old 07-25-2018, 07:00 AM
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Winter is coming.....




lol...sorry Game of Thrones geek moment.


Originally Posted by M3 Maestro View Post
Stef like I mentioned there is only so much time in a day. The physics based model I have built are for fun on my spare time and I have shared them with other members here who are interested. If I was in this business I can guarantee I would have characterized the entire exhaust not just one location. For example on your own product, you want to know pressure before and after the cat (gives you delta pressure of cats), in and out of the mufflers (gives you delta pressure of mufflers), in the crossover etc to know where and what all your losses are so you can properly optimize. In addition you would like to add in the dynamic pressure so you understand total pressure. I would handle the X pipe designs in a similar fashion. That aside, you were nice enough to post some restriction numbers you have collected. Using the data you have posted for your EP stage 1 and stage 2 I made physics based models to predict exhaust restriction at any horsepower, not just stock. As you know and you stated, the restriction you posted is at stock airflow.

I have thought, again for fun, to take pressure on my own car before winter hits. I'm contemplating going bigger turbos and knowing where the restriction is today is of value to me. I can predict my future exhaust flow thru the engine and then I could assess how my exhaust will performance without spending a penny on parts, just my time. We will see if I find time to do this before winter.

We can get much more complex to gain more accuracy like adding in swirl out of the turbine wheel, turbo speed, vane position, etc which is the correct way. But again I'm not in this business, this is for fun and entertainment though others may disagree of my definition of fun I'll let you guys know if I measure mine before winter
got, winter
 

Last edited by turboslut; 07-25-2018 at 07:04 AM.
  #133  
Old 07-25-2018, 07:01 AM
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ROFLMAO!!! Where is the meme!?!
 
  #134  
Old 07-25-2018, 12:58 PM
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Either way you slice it with 750 estimated whp I feel that i can benefit from a bigger exhust pipe at this power level - although the sound may be louder i feel that with these VGT turbos our number 1 enemy is back pressure which is probably at least 50 psi at the turbine inlet. Anything I can do to lower that number will improve the performance
 
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Old 07-25-2018, 01:20 PM
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Between 55-60 psi! Even more without a few tricks. Looking forward to newest logs bud!
 
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