VF-Engineering SC boost/temp gauge install and 3.6 pulley dyno
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VF-Engineering SC boost/temp gauge install and 3.6 pulley dyno
Just finished installing a supercharger boost gauge / air-charge temp gauge with a good friend of mine, Ehrin. We picked SPA Technique as the supplier for their outstanding reputation and quality products.
FYI- Point of contact there is Dan List and the website and his info are here:
Dan List | Sales/Special Projects | SPA Technique, Inc.
8225 Indy Lane | Indianapolis, IN 46214 USA
Office 317-271-7941 | Fax 317-271-7951 | Cell 317-224-5300
http://www.spatechnique.com/product_...ils.cfm?id=371
We installed the DG-206 Pressure/Temp gauge in the sport chrono location. It fits perfectly and no modification is required. The gauge swivel left/right capability is retained. However the sport chrono must remain plugged in for the chrono in the dash to work. Simply plug it in, bubble wrap it and stick it in a hole located on the left side of the Nav. The DG-206 has 4 backlight options. Off, red, green or amber.
As for the sensors, they were mounted in the supercharger intercooler exhaust after creating a NTP hole for the Temp sensor and BSP hole for the pressure sensor. Also on the reinstall we sealed the pipes with high-temp RTV silicone gasket maker to ensure there would be no pressure leaks.
During this process we also swapped out the 3.8” pulley for the next size down, a 3.6”. (20mm smaller Gatorback poly-v rib belt also) On our last assessment we determined the SC was only generating 4.6 PSI boost. (Using an analog gauge on a vacuum line.) Deciding to try for more boost we mounted the 3.6 “ pulley and installed a much more accurate measurement of actual boost as well as air-charge temp.
On steady state RPM the following PSI boost numbers were recorded:
3500 RPM= 1.2 PSI boost
4000 RPM= 1.9 PSI boost
4500 RPM= 2.8 PSI boost
5000 RPM= 3.5 PSI boost
5500 RPM= 4.5 PSI boost
6000 RPM= 5.0 PSI Boost
6500 RPM= 6.3 PSI boost
7000 RPM =7.1 PSI boost
7200 RPM= 7.3 PSI boost (Redline)
The Vortech site states that this one size smaller diameter pulley would result in a 1-2 PSI pressure increase so taking these numbers into account the 3.8” was probably pretty close to the advertised .5.-6.0 PSI. (Sorry for doubting you Nik/Sean)
Incidentally, the DG-206 will record and display max boost as well as max charge air temp.
Ambient temp for testing was 78F at 450’ elevation. Altimeter 29.98, taken off the DFW METAR.
Max spiked boost recorded for the test was 7.8PSI but I have seen as high as 8.7PSI very momentarily on heavy acceleration but don’t think that is an accurate reflection of actual pressure but of the sensor not being able to re-correct quickly enough. (I could be wrong though.) Charge air temp started at 80F and typically runs around 100-140F with ambient being in the 75-85F range. Dyno max pressure was recorded at 7.7 PSI and air-charge at 148F. During long near redline excursions I was able to get the air charge up to 200F.
Now for the dyno information:
The initial dyno run was completed by Twenty First Century Muscle Cars Inc. Addison, Texas, on a two wheel Dyno-Jet.
Those numbers are as follows: 445.9 HP, 327.3 TQ and AFR at 11.7 (3.8” pulley- ~80F ambient)
New numbers taken yesterday: 479.0 HP, 346.2 TQ and AFR at 12.7 (3.6” pulley- ~80F)
The pulley swapresults in an increase of approximately 35 HP, 20 ft. lbs and a leaner 12.7 AFR
As for drivability, the car is noticeably faster across the whole band. I did not experience any negative effects of the leaner AFR but the OAT was fairly cool at around 75F. Certainly the AFR is leaner then I would like so I contacted Nik at VF-E. He told me this was the result of the fuel pump being maxed out and not more fuel flow being available. (Options being possibly a larger fuel flow pump although my understanding is that the current fuel pump on my car is a variable demand pump and not a max pump with a return so that may be a difficult problem in that the DME signals the pump for output demand.) If this is incorrect please let me know. I am not too interested in spending a lot of money or time on fuel pump swaps / testing so I might just have a two pulley operation. 3.8 for summer months and 3.6 for winter cooler operations. Or I might get tired of swapping altogether and just put the 3.8 back on and leave it. Either way this is the information I promised. Any expert tuners please chime in on your thoughts. I know I can add octane booster to assist in keeping potential detonation down. Although I wonder just how bad 12.7 AFR is for my driving conditions. (Don’t track and limited redline excursions)
Certainly more testing is in order.
Comments?
FYI- Point of contact there is Dan List and the website and his info are here:
Dan List | Sales/Special Projects | SPA Technique, Inc.
8225 Indy Lane | Indianapolis, IN 46214 USA
Office 317-271-7941 | Fax 317-271-7951 | Cell 317-224-5300
http://www.spatechnique.com/product_...ils.cfm?id=371
We installed the DG-206 Pressure/Temp gauge in the sport chrono location. It fits perfectly and no modification is required. The gauge swivel left/right capability is retained. However the sport chrono must remain plugged in for the chrono in the dash to work. Simply plug it in, bubble wrap it and stick it in a hole located on the left side of the Nav. The DG-206 has 4 backlight options. Off, red, green or amber.
As for the sensors, they were mounted in the supercharger intercooler exhaust after creating a NTP hole for the Temp sensor and BSP hole for the pressure sensor. Also on the reinstall we sealed the pipes with high-temp RTV silicone gasket maker to ensure there would be no pressure leaks.
During this process we also swapped out the 3.8” pulley for the next size down, a 3.6”. (20mm smaller Gatorback poly-v rib belt also) On our last assessment we determined the SC was only generating 4.6 PSI boost. (Using an analog gauge on a vacuum line.) Deciding to try for more boost we mounted the 3.6 “ pulley and installed a much more accurate measurement of actual boost as well as air-charge temp.
On steady state RPM the following PSI boost numbers were recorded:
3500 RPM= 1.2 PSI boost
4000 RPM= 1.9 PSI boost
4500 RPM= 2.8 PSI boost
5000 RPM= 3.5 PSI boost
5500 RPM= 4.5 PSI boost
6000 RPM= 5.0 PSI Boost
6500 RPM= 6.3 PSI boost
7000 RPM =7.1 PSI boost
7200 RPM= 7.3 PSI boost (Redline)
The Vortech site states that this one size smaller diameter pulley would result in a 1-2 PSI pressure increase so taking these numbers into account the 3.8” was probably pretty close to the advertised .5.-6.0 PSI. (Sorry for doubting you Nik/Sean)
Incidentally, the DG-206 will record and display max boost as well as max charge air temp.
Ambient temp for testing was 78F at 450’ elevation. Altimeter 29.98, taken off the DFW METAR.
Max spiked boost recorded for the test was 7.8PSI but I have seen as high as 8.7PSI very momentarily on heavy acceleration but don’t think that is an accurate reflection of actual pressure but of the sensor not being able to re-correct quickly enough. (I could be wrong though.) Charge air temp started at 80F and typically runs around 100-140F with ambient being in the 75-85F range. Dyno max pressure was recorded at 7.7 PSI and air-charge at 148F. During long near redline excursions I was able to get the air charge up to 200F.
Now for the dyno information:
The initial dyno run was completed by Twenty First Century Muscle Cars Inc. Addison, Texas, on a two wheel Dyno-Jet.
Those numbers are as follows: 445.9 HP, 327.3 TQ and AFR at 11.7 (3.8” pulley- ~80F ambient)
New numbers taken yesterday: 479.0 HP, 346.2 TQ and AFR at 12.7 (3.6” pulley- ~80F)
The pulley swapresults in an increase of approximately 35 HP, 20 ft. lbs and a leaner 12.7 AFR
As for drivability, the car is noticeably faster across the whole band. I did not experience any negative effects of the leaner AFR but the OAT was fairly cool at around 75F. Certainly the AFR is leaner then I would like so I contacted Nik at VF-E. He told me this was the result of the fuel pump being maxed out and not more fuel flow being available. (Options being possibly a larger fuel flow pump although my understanding is that the current fuel pump on my car is a variable demand pump and not a max pump with a return so that may be a difficult problem in that the DME signals the pump for output demand.) If this is incorrect please let me know. I am not too interested in spending a lot of money or time on fuel pump swaps / testing so I might just have a two pulley operation. 3.8 for summer months and 3.6 for winter cooler operations. Or I might get tired of swapping altogether and just put the 3.8 back on and leave it. Either way this is the information I promised. Any expert tuners please chime in on your thoughts. I know I can add octane booster to assist in keeping potential detonation down. Although I wonder just how bad 12.7 AFR is for my driving conditions. (Don’t track and limited redline excursions)
Certainly more testing is in order.
Comments?
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Your intake temperature is alot higher above ambient once your engine has been driven awhile. Your dyno is quite a bit exaggerated too. And you have far less boost entering your engine than your gauge indicates. Like 2+ psi less. You are measuring it at the wrong place. It may be the reason your boost readings at 3500 are far below what they really are. You can't measure boost before the bypass valve. It should be measured as close to the cylinders as possible. Finally, your fuel pump is not running anywhere new maximum compacity.
Last edited by 1999Porsche911; Sep 18, 2009 at 05:41 PM.
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99,
I address each statement individually.
“Your intake temperature is alot higher than 13F above ambient once your engine has been driven awhile.”
Of course it is. I just started the car and took the picture of the gauge. Did I say somewhere otherwise?
“Your dyno is quite a bit exaggerated too.”
How so? It was done on a dyno-jet and the swapped pulley results were about 35HP greater. Makes sense to me. If you are trying to tell me the results would be different on a Mustang Ill by that. I am simply showing apples to apples comparison with different pulleys. The 3.8 pulley numbers are pretty close to what VF-E advertises. The 3.6 add about 35 HP, that certainly makes sense. Right?
“And you have far less boost entering your engine than your gauge indicates. Like 2+ psi less.”
The gauge says different. Vf-E says the 3.8 is a 6 PSI pulley. Vortech says the 3.6 is 1-2 PSI more. I am showing 7.3 PSI max so the numbers are very logical. This pressure is what is going into the throttle body. The numbers make sense.
“It may be the reason your boost readings at 3500 are far below what they really are.”
Again I do not understand. You say the numbers are too high entering the engine, 2 PSI less, but then say the numbers at 3500 are too low. Seems to be a contraction? Where do you get your information, using what gauge at what location?
“You can't measure boost before the bypass valve. It should be measured as close to the cylinders as possible.”
Why? It’s all in the same plenum? Other supercharger performance shops I talked with said the location I selected was perfectly fine. So, why exactly is this not a good location? Call it throttle body inlet pressure if that is a more correct name. Isn't the bypass valve closed on acceleration? I do show a vacuum, ie-negative number, when I let off of the throttle rapidly. (Bypass opening)
“Finally, your fuel pump is not running anywhere new maximum compacity.”
Please explain. Nik at VF-E says different. I am running lean at the high end. Are you saying a rewrite of the GIAC code would allow more fuel?
Bottom line. I would really like people to qualify their responses with information and facts instead of just making statements.
I address each statement individually.
“Your intake temperature is alot higher than 13F above ambient once your engine has been driven awhile.”
Of course it is. I just started the car and took the picture of the gauge. Did I say somewhere otherwise?
“Your dyno is quite a bit exaggerated too.”
How so? It was done on a dyno-jet and the swapped pulley results were about 35HP greater. Makes sense to me. If you are trying to tell me the results would be different on a Mustang Ill by that. I am simply showing apples to apples comparison with different pulleys. The 3.8 pulley numbers are pretty close to what VF-E advertises. The 3.6 add about 35 HP, that certainly makes sense. Right?
“And you have far less boost entering your engine than your gauge indicates. Like 2+ psi less.”
The gauge says different. Vf-E says the 3.8 is a 6 PSI pulley. Vortech says the 3.6 is 1-2 PSI more. I am showing 7.3 PSI max so the numbers are very logical. This pressure is what is going into the throttle body. The numbers make sense.
“It may be the reason your boost readings at 3500 are far below what they really are.”
Again I do not understand. You say the numbers are too high entering the engine, 2 PSI less, but then say the numbers at 3500 are too low. Seems to be a contraction? Where do you get your information, using what gauge at what location?
“You can't measure boost before the bypass valve. It should be measured as close to the cylinders as possible.”
Why? It’s all in the same plenum? Other supercharger performance shops I talked with said the location I selected was perfectly fine. So, why exactly is this not a good location? Call it throttle body inlet pressure if that is a more correct name. Isn't the bypass valve closed on acceleration? I do show a vacuum, ie-negative number, when I let off of the throttle rapidly. (Bypass opening)
“Finally, your fuel pump is not running anywhere new maximum compacity.”
Please explain. Nik at VF-E says different. I am running lean at the high end. Are you saying a rewrite of the GIAC code would allow more fuel?
Bottom line. I would really like people to qualify their responses with information and facts instead of just making statements.
Last edited by WaltB; Sep 18, 2009 at 05:59 PM.
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Ellis,
The dyno shows RWH. I took the front wheel drive shaft off to get the comparison. Certainly the numbers would be lower on an all wheel drive dyno.
(There was no all wheel drive dyno here in the DFW area last year that I knew about so I went with 21st century muscle and turned my car into a two wheel drive.)
The dyno shows RWH. I took the front wheel drive shaft off to get the comparison. Certainly the numbers would be lower on an all wheel drive dyno.
(There was no all wheel drive dyno here in the DFW area last year that I knew about so I went with 21st century muscle and turned my car into a two wheel drive.)
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During this process we also swapped out the 3.8” pulley for the next size down, a 3.6”. (20mm smaller Gatorback poly-v rib belt also) On our last assessment we determined the SC was only generating 4.6 PSI boost. (Using an analog gauge on a vacuum line.) Deciding to try for more boost we mounted the 3.6 “ pulley and installed a much more accurate measurement of actual boost as well as air-charge temp.
On steady state RPM the following PSI boost numbers were recorded:
3500 RPM= 1.2 PSI boost
4000 RPM= 1.9 PSI boost
4500 RPM= 2.8 PSI boost
5000 RPM= 3.5 PSI boost
5500 RPM= 4.5 PSI boost
6000 RPM= 5.0 PSI Boost
6500 RPM= 6.3 PSI boost
7000 RPM =7.1 PSI boost
7200 RPM= 7.3 PSI boost (Redline)
The Vortech site states that this one size smaller diameter pulley would result in a 1-2 PSI pressure increase so taking these numbers into account the 3.8” was probably pretty close to the advertised .5.-6.0 PSI. (Sorry for doubting you Nik/Sean)
Incidentally, the DG-206 will record and display max boost as well as max charge air temp.
Ambient temp for testing was 78F at 450’ elevation. Altimeter 29.98, taken off the DFW METAR.
Max spiked boost recorded for the test was 7.8PSI but I have seen as high as 8.7PSI very momentarily on heavy acceleration but don’t think that is an accurate reflection of actual pressure but of the sensor not being able to re-correct quickly enough. (I could be wrong though.) Charge air temp started at 80F and typically runs around 100-140F with ambient being in the 75-85F range. Dyno max pressure was recorded at 7.7 PSI and air-charge at 148F. During long near redline excursions I was able to get the air charge up to 200F.
The initial dyno run was completed by Twenty First Century Muscle Cars Inc. Addison, Texas, on a two wheel Dyno-Jet.
Those numbers are as follows: 445.9 HP, 327.3 TQ and AFR at 11.7 (3.8” pulley- ~80F ambient)
New numbers taken yesterday: 479.0 HP, 346.2 TQ and AFR at 12.7 (3.6” pulley- ~80F)
The pulley swapresults in an increase of approximately 35 HP, 20 ft. lbs and a leaner 12.7 AFR
Or I might get tired of swapping altogether and just put the 3.8 back on and leave it. Either way this is the information I promised. Any expert tuners please chime in on your thoughts. I know I can add octane booster to assist in keeping potential detonation down. Although I wonder just how bad 12.7 AFR is for my driving conditions. (Don’t track and limited redline excursions)
Certainly more testing is in order.
Comments?
On steady state RPM the following PSI boost numbers were recorded:
3500 RPM= 1.2 PSI boost
4000 RPM= 1.9 PSI boost
4500 RPM= 2.8 PSI boost
5000 RPM= 3.5 PSI boost
5500 RPM= 4.5 PSI boost
6000 RPM= 5.0 PSI Boost
6500 RPM= 6.3 PSI boost
7000 RPM =7.1 PSI boost
7200 RPM= 7.3 PSI boost (Redline)
The Vortech site states that this one size smaller diameter pulley would result in a 1-2 PSI pressure increase so taking these numbers into account the 3.8” was probably pretty close to the advertised .5.-6.0 PSI. (Sorry for doubting you Nik/Sean)
Incidentally, the DG-206 will record and display max boost as well as max charge air temp.
Ambient temp for testing was 78F at 450’ elevation. Altimeter 29.98, taken off the DFW METAR.
Max spiked boost recorded for the test was 7.8PSI but I have seen as high as 8.7PSI very momentarily on heavy acceleration but don’t think that is an accurate reflection of actual pressure but of the sensor not being able to re-correct quickly enough. (I could be wrong though.) Charge air temp started at 80F and typically runs around 100-140F with ambient being in the 75-85F range. Dyno max pressure was recorded at 7.7 PSI and air-charge at 148F. During long near redline excursions I was able to get the air charge up to 200F.
The initial dyno run was completed by Twenty First Century Muscle Cars Inc. Addison, Texas, on a two wheel Dyno-Jet.
Those numbers are as follows: 445.9 HP, 327.3 TQ and AFR at 11.7 (3.8” pulley- ~80F ambient)
New numbers taken yesterday: 479.0 HP, 346.2 TQ and AFR at 12.7 (3.6” pulley- ~80F)
The pulley swapresults in an increase of approximately 35 HP, 20 ft. lbs and a leaner 12.7 AFR
Or I might get tired of swapping altogether and just put the 3.8 back on and leave it. Either way this is the information I promised. Any expert tuners please chime in on your thoughts. I know I can add octane booster to assist in keeping potential detonation down. Although I wonder just how bad 12.7 AFR is for my driving conditions. (Don’t track and limited redline excursions)
Certainly more testing is in order.
Comments?
I didn't see nearly that amount of boost you have BUT I measured it in a different place....I used the line from the vacuum adapter to the bypass valve,I tee'd into that with an analog gauge?
I wonder WHAT mine would read where you did your final reading!?
Those are some GREAT dyno numbers...I just HATE that each dyno record such different numbers!
**What/any exhaust MODS do you have?**
I noticed you said you are running lean...????
Just FYI I ran the 3.48" pulley briefly...BUT it was BRIEF,LOL!!!
I shredded the belt after 3 good 3rd gear pulls from 2000 RPM to redline(must NOT have had the belt aligned properly)!
Sure would like to know about that fuel pump thing you mentioned!
Anyway,funny coincidence...I just came inside from working on my car(swapping YET another pulley) and saw this thread.
I hope it is ALL you expected,must go GOOD!
I just swapped my 3.6" pulley for 3.40" pulley today!
I am going run it tomorrow....weather permitting!
We will see.......
Stacy
PS wish you were closer to me to do some DIRECT comparisons!
According to your numbers I should see another 70 RWHP with my pulley swap putting me over 500 RWHP with the 3.4" pulley...WOW...looking forward to it!
I sure like your numbers BETTER than the ones I got here on a Mustang dyno.......but the Mustang IS known to be "The heart-breaker" dyno!
Also you never responded to my question in my thread....wondering why?
Last edited by justatoy; Sep 18, 2009 at 06:54 PM.
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Well I have to say I think its great to see all this experimentation. Sad to see the bickering but overall awesome that you guys are willing to do some of your own research with not much to go on. We are not dealing with Ford Mustangs where the SCing formula is pretty well cracked and shared by a few thousand. You guys represent a small handful of guys that have SC'd the M96/7 engine or really any Porsche at its great to see. You are all obviously just doing the best you can with the limited knowledge that is available.
Cheers,
Jason
Cheers,
Jason
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99,
I address each statement individually.
“Your intake temperature is alot higher than 13F above ambient once your engine has been driven awhile.”
Of course it is. I just started the car and took the picture of the gauge. Did I say somewhere otherwise?
“Your dyno is quite a bit exaggerated too.”
How so? It was done on a dyno-jet and the swapped pulley results were about 35HP greater. Makes sense to me. If you are trying to tell me the results would be different on a Mustang Ill by that. I am simply showing apples to apples comparison with different pulleys. The 3.8 pulley numbers are pretty close to what VF-E advertises. The 3.6 add about 35 HP, that certainly makes sense. Right?
“And you have far less boost entering your engine than your gauge indicates. Like 2+ psi less.”
The gauge says different. Vf-E says the 3.8 is a 6 PSI pulley. Vortech says the 3.6 is 1-2 PSI more. I am showing 7.3 PSI max so the numbers are very logical. This pressure is what is going into the throttle body. The numbers make sense.
“It may be the reason your boost readings at 3500 are far below what they really are.”
Again I do not understand. You say the numbers are too high entering the engine, 2 PSI less, but then say the numbers at 3500 are too low. Seems to be a contraction? Where do you get your information, using what gauge at what location?
“You can't measure boost before the bypass valve. It should be measured as close to the cylinders as possible.”
Why? It’s all in the same plenum? Other supercharger performance shops I talked with said the location I selected was perfectly fine. So, why exactly is this not a good location? Call it throttle body inlet pressure if that is a more correct name. Isn't the bypass valve closed on acceleration? I do show a vacuum, ie-negative number, when I let off of the throttle rapidly. (Bypass opening)
“Finally, your fuel pump is not running anywhere new maximum compacity.”
Please explain. Nik at VF-E says different. I am running lean at the high end. Are you saying a rewrite of the GIAC code would allow more fuel?
Bottom line. I would really like people to qualify their responses with information and facts instead of just making statements.
I address each statement individually.
“Your intake temperature is alot higher than 13F above ambient once your engine has been driven awhile.”
Of course it is. I just started the car and took the picture of the gauge. Did I say somewhere otherwise?
“Your dyno is quite a bit exaggerated too.”
How so? It was done on a dyno-jet and the swapped pulley results were about 35HP greater. Makes sense to me. If you are trying to tell me the results would be different on a Mustang Ill by that. I am simply showing apples to apples comparison with different pulleys. The 3.8 pulley numbers are pretty close to what VF-E advertises. The 3.6 add about 35 HP, that certainly makes sense. Right?
“And you have far less boost entering your engine than your gauge indicates. Like 2+ psi less.”
The gauge says different. Vf-E says the 3.8 is a 6 PSI pulley. Vortech says the 3.6 is 1-2 PSI more. I am showing 7.3 PSI max so the numbers are very logical. This pressure is what is going into the throttle body. The numbers make sense.
“It may be the reason your boost readings at 3500 are far below what they really are.”
Again I do not understand. You say the numbers are too high entering the engine, 2 PSI less, but then say the numbers at 3500 are too low. Seems to be a contraction? Where do you get your information, using what gauge at what location?
“You can't measure boost before the bypass valve. It should be measured as close to the cylinders as possible.”
Why? It’s all in the same plenum? Other supercharger performance shops I talked with said the location I selected was perfectly fine. So, why exactly is this not a good location? Call it throttle body inlet pressure if that is a more correct name. Isn't the bypass valve closed on acceleration? I do show a vacuum, ie-negative number, when I let off of the throttle rapidly. (Bypass opening)
“Finally, your fuel pump is not running anywhere new maximum compacity.”
Please explain. Nik at VF-E says different. I am running lean at the high end. Are you saying a rewrite of the GIAC code would allow more fuel?
Bottom line. I would really like people to qualify their responses with information and facts instead of just making statements.
However, there are a few things I can point out that you can research yourself. I would start by researching what happens to pressure and flow as it encounters different shapes in the flow path and bends in the path. If I measured my boost where you do, I would have more than 10 psi. You stated that your dyno numbers are very close to what VF states which is not true. VF advertises 475 engine hp which is less than 400 rwhp.
You also have NO BOOST to the engine while simply driving around town at a steady RPM. You actually have engine vacuum. Yet, because of the placement of your boost gauge, you don’t see that. It’s funny that you are told that your fuel pump can’t handle anymore volume on a 75F day. That means your air/fuel ratio will be 13.5:1 on a cold day when more fuel is needed. You were given false information. Your fuel pump will handle far more fuel than is necessary for the meager 5+ pounds of boost your engine is getting.
Finally, reducing your pulley size from 3.8 to 3.6 does not give you 1 -2 psi more to your engine, regardless of who told you that.
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I simply put out my findings backed up with actual gauges and dynos. You fall back on you proprietary information, I know more than you but cannot share it cause it’s a secret, but trust me crap.
“If I measured my boost where you do, I would have more than 10 psi.”
How would it be more than mine? Are you running a smaller pulley than a 3.6? Do you have a 997S? What was your actual measurement? How are you actually measuring your boost now and with what gauge? Oh that’s a secret, right?
VF advertises 475 engine hp which is less than 400 rwhp.
Ok, my initial numbers were 445.9 RWHP with X51 headers and AWE cats. Certainly within the realm of possibility considering lots of variants including temperature and pressure not to mention maybe my car has less compression loss. Do the same dynos in two different locations measure exactly the same if the car was the constant?
“You also have NO BOOST to the engine while simply driving around town at a steady RPM.”
Really??? That make zero sense! So driving at a steady state 7,000 RPM the engine is operating in a vacuum! Maybe I should turn the SC around and create more vacuum?
“It’s funny that you are told that your fuel pump can’t handle anymore volume”
Yes, told by the guy that actually designed the kit. He has slightly more credibility then you sir.
”Finally, reducing your pulley size from 3.8 to 3.6 does not give you 1 -2 psi more to your engine, regardless of who told you that.”
Came straight from Vortech, the manufacturer of the supercharger and pulley.
Please Note
A change in one pulley size will usually effect boost 1-2 PSIG... down in diameter, up in boost and vice versa.
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/product.php?p=42
1999, you have proven you have zero credibility but spout facts as for as you are concerned. Everything I have listed is logical and within acceptable parameters. If you have facts you would like to share, I mean specific facts, please do. Otherwise don’t continue to waste our time here.
“If I measured my boost where you do, I would have more than 10 psi.”
How would it be more than mine? Are you running a smaller pulley than a 3.6? Do you have a 997S? What was your actual measurement? How are you actually measuring your boost now and with what gauge? Oh that’s a secret, right?
VF advertises 475 engine hp which is less than 400 rwhp.
Ok, my initial numbers were 445.9 RWHP with X51 headers and AWE cats. Certainly within the realm of possibility considering lots of variants including temperature and pressure not to mention maybe my car has less compression loss. Do the same dynos in two different locations measure exactly the same if the car was the constant?
“You also have NO BOOST to the engine while simply driving around town at a steady RPM.”
Really??? That make zero sense! So driving at a steady state 7,000 RPM the engine is operating in a vacuum! Maybe I should turn the SC around and create more vacuum?
“It’s funny that you are told that your fuel pump can’t handle anymore volume”
Yes, told by the guy that actually designed the kit. He has slightly more credibility then you sir.
”Finally, reducing your pulley size from 3.8 to 3.6 does not give you 1 -2 psi more to your engine, regardless of who told you that.”
Came straight from Vortech, the manufacturer of the supercharger and pulley.
Please Note
A change in one pulley size will usually effect boost 1-2 PSIG... down in diameter, up in boost and vice versa.
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/product.php?p=42
1999, you have proven you have zero credibility but spout facts as for as you are concerned. Everything I have listed is logical and within acceptable parameters. If you have facts you would like to share, I mean specific facts, please do. Otherwise don’t continue to waste our time here.
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Stacy,
My measurement is with an expensive digital pressure gauge with good accuracy. Maybe more accurate in the plenum as opposed to tee’t into a vacuum line? I don’t know what anyone’s final boost numbers would be. That would be dependent on lots of variables including boost leaks.
What I do know it VF-E says the 3.8 pulley is designed to blow 5.5-6 PSI. Vortech says installing a pulley that is one step smaller should net 1-2 more PSI. My max PSI is 7.3
Draw your own conclusion from that. Seem to validate my numbers, right?
Exhaust mods:
X-51 headers
AWE 200 cel cats
PSE
“According to your numbers I should see another 70 RWHP with my pulley swap putting me over 500 RWHP with the 3.4" pulley...WOW...looking forward to it!”
Possibly, but at the risk of runner more lean? I don’t know the answer to that. My car is running lean at 12.7-1 AFR at the high end. VF-E says it’s a fuel flow limitation with the pump. Makes perfect sense. More research is in order. There is a lot more air going into the engine than it was designed for with the 3.8”, even more air with the 3.6” At some point the fuel pump simply cannot keep up with the required fuel flow rate and the mixture will go lean. I might be there now.
“Also you never responded to my question in my thread....wondering why?”
Sorry, I must have missed it. Please ask again.
My measurement is with an expensive digital pressure gauge with good accuracy. Maybe more accurate in the plenum as opposed to tee’t into a vacuum line? I don’t know what anyone’s final boost numbers would be. That would be dependent on lots of variables including boost leaks.
What I do know it VF-E says the 3.8 pulley is designed to blow 5.5-6 PSI. Vortech says installing a pulley that is one step smaller should net 1-2 more PSI. My max PSI is 7.3
Draw your own conclusion from that. Seem to validate my numbers, right?
Exhaust mods:
X-51 headers
AWE 200 cel cats
PSE
“According to your numbers I should see another 70 RWHP with my pulley swap putting me over 500 RWHP with the 3.4" pulley...WOW...looking forward to it!”
Possibly, but at the risk of runner more lean? I don’t know the answer to that. My car is running lean at 12.7-1 AFR at the high end. VF-E says it’s a fuel flow limitation with the pump. Makes perfect sense. More research is in order. There is a lot more air going into the engine than it was designed for with the 3.8”, even more air with the 3.6” At some point the fuel pump simply cannot keep up with the required fuel flow rate and the mixture will go lean. I might be there now.
“Also you never responded to my question in my thread....wondering why?”
Sorry, I must have missed it. Please ask again.
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My charger bracket has "Evo motorsports" stamped in it!
Stacy
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Yes, Todd and his crew did alot of the testing and development.
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According to VF-E the answer to that is NO. Evolution Motorsports was given the task to market the SC. The design/ creation was VF-E and the coding a joint effort with GIAC.
"My question to you IS...what does tuning consist of.....?"
Was this your question?
If so I would say to adapt, adjust, fix problem areas. Could be hardware or software. My point in the earlier thread was that if you add more air, you need to add fuel.
If you start to run lean, not enough fuel is in the mixture. The solution is either re-code the software to send more fuel. (If available. Possible bottlenecks are injector size and pump fuel flow capability) or figure out a method to get more fuel to the engine. (Alcohol injection being another possibility) you could run much higher octane to reduce the flash point of the fuel also but not sure who well that protects you ultimately.
That is what I was asking you.
You went down the road before me. If you have a sollution I would love to hear it. If not or you want to try to sell the idea that's fine also.
"My question to you IS...what does tuning consist of.....?"
Was this your question?
If so I would say to adapt, adjust, fix problem areas. Could be hardware or software. My point in the earlier thread was that if you add more air, you need to add fuel.
If you start to run lean, not enough fuel is in the mixture. The solution is either re-code the software to send more fuel. (If available. Possible bottlenecks are injector size and pump fuel flow capability) or figure out a method to get more fuel to the engine. (Alcohol injection being another possibility) you could run much higher octane to reduce the flash point of the fuel also but not sure who well that protects you ultimately.
That is what I was asking you.
You went down the road before me. If you have a sollution I would love to hear it. If not or you want to try to sell the idea that's fine also.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,134
From: Chicagoland
Rep Power: 123
According to VF-E the answer to that is NO. Evolution Motorsports was given the task to market the SC. The design/ creation was VF-E and the coding a joint effort with GIAC.
"My question to you IS...what does tuning consist of.....?"
Was this your question?
If so I would say to adapt, adjust, fix problem areas. Could be hardware or software. My point in the earlier thread was that if you add more air, you need to add fuel.
If you start to run lean, not enough fuel is in the mixture. The solution is either re-code the software to send more fuel. (If available. Possible bottlenecks are injector size and pump fuel flow capability) or figure out a method to get more fuel to the engine. (Alcohol injection being another possibility) you could run much higher octane to reduce the flash point of the fuel also but not sure who well that protects you ultimately.
That is what I was asking you.
You went down the road before me. If you have a sollution I would love to hear it. If not or you want to try to sell the idea that's fine also.
"My question to you IS...what does tuning consist of.....?"
Was this your question?
If so I would say to adapt, adjust, fix problem areas. Could be hardware or software. My point in the earlier thread was that if you add more air, you need to add fuel.
If you start to run lean, not enough fuel is in the mixture. The solution is either re-code the software to send more fuel. (If available. Possible bottlenecks are injector size and pump fuel flow capability) or figure out a method to get more fuel to the engine. (Alcohol injection being another possibility) you could run much higher octane to reduce the flash point of the fuel also but not sure who well that protects you ultimately.
That is what I was asking you.
You went down the road before me. If you have a sollution I would love to hear it. If not or you want to try to sell the idea that's fine also.
Higher octane RAISES THE FLASH POINT, not lowers it.
Last edited by 1999Porsche911; Sep 20, 2009 at 05:47 AM.
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99,
I am not attacking you. Just asking for facts to back up what you are saying. You simply do not provide them.
You say imaginary boost levels. VF-E says 5.5-6 PSI. Vortech says add 1-2 PSI with the smaller pulley. My pressure gauge indicates 7.3. How is that imaginary and not inline? How about explain how this is not correct.
Here is the math
5.5-6 + 1-2= 6.5-8 PSI. Again, my gauge shows 7.3PSI
You say you moved your boost gauge closer to the compressor and now have more than 16 PSI. How is it that your pressure is so much higher than mine? Obviously we have two different engines but the same SC? Don’t know the answer so please explain it to me. If my PSI numbers are in with the above, what VF-E says and the additive Vortech says to add with the smaller pulley explain how this seems to equate and I’m not seeing 16 PSI.
Even so, forget for a moment about the dyno numbers. My post is not a brag about max HP. It is a direct comparison between a previous dyno with a larger diameter pulley.
If you are trying to tell me my car does not actually generate 479 HP. Fine no argument here. I’m sure other dynos would post other numbers. Not the point of this thread. The point was the gauge install which no one commented on, the different numbers this dyno posted with a smaller pulley, the apparent lean AFR and the boost PSI numbers I was seeing from the gauge.
It’s that simple. You need a drink!
I am not attacking you. Just asking for facts to back up what you are saying. You simply do not provide them.
You say imaginary boost levels. VF-E says 5.5-6 PSI. Vortech says add 1-2 PSI with the smaller pulley. My pressure gauge indicates 7.3. How is that imaginary and not inline? How about explain how this is not correct.
Here is the math
5.5-6 + 1-2= 6.5-8 PSI. Again, my gauge shows 7.3PSI
You say you moved your boost gauge closer to the compressor and now have more than 16 PSI. How is it that your pressure is so much higher than mine? Obviously we have two different engines but the same SC? Don’t know the answer so please explain it to me. If my PSI numbers are in with the above, what VF-E says and the additive Vortech says to add with the smaller pulley explain how this seems to equate and I’m not seeing 16 PSI.
Even so, forget for a moment about the dyno numbers. My post is not a brag about max HP. It is a direct comparison between a previous dyno with a larger diameter pulley.
If you are trying to tell me my car does not actually generate 479 HP. Fine no argument here. I’m sure other dynos would post other numbers. Not the point of this thread. The point was the gauge install which no one commented on, the different numbers this dyno posted with a smaller pulley, the apparent lean AFR and the boost PSI numbers I was seeing from the gauge.
It’s that simple. You need a drink!