From what you're saying you will be longing after the S if you get the non S. Can you save for a little longer and get '06 C2S?

 

I no doubt have a sanity-preserving bias, but there is no clear data on IMS failures on 997's overall or per model year. A lot of claims, but no hard data.
But regardless, I do agree that ignoring your 'S' envy is done at your own peril. It's a lot of money to spend to be wishing for something else from day one. And I suspect it's a feeling that will not diminish.
And finally, as others note, there are few real bargains left. Those cars with low prices are more likely burdened with a story. Unsaid or not.
Cayman's are really nice cars.

 

Exactly. You want a green 911? Don't remember what the launch car equipment was, but it ain't no '05 from what I recall.

 

Who uses the temp and fan buttons all the time? 28k miles and a new clutch is a sign of a person that can't drive a manual or someone that's given their car up to valets all the time or lives in SanFran. Not a good sign in 90% of the cases.
Oh, you NEED the S. Beg, borrow or steal the difference. Make yourself happy. If I'm lucky, the prices of the '07's may go up even more.

 

That is true, however I couldn't find any IMS failures on '06+ while there are at least a few on '05. There is no question '06 is improved (IMS and oil scavenging pump) but in reality '05 may not be that problematic either. Only Porsche has hard data what the failure rate is

 

too bad all the dealers deny there were ever any problems at all... my tech friend IS testament to the fact he says he sees '05s in the shop ALL the time... the CPO (i know its only for 2 years) is the only reason for me to even consider the 2005 (that and the price)

 

'06+ car has single-row IMS bearing which is supposedly should be better lubricated so it should, supposedly, fail less often.

And to my perception 'S envy' entity was by most invented on this very forum, by 'S' owners mostly. Most people out there just drive their 911s and do not care at all what is written on that back panel. Each person should decide for himself if PASM, +.2 displacement, red brakes and bigger clutch does worth that price difference to pay, or not. I do not believe this difference is worth even $10K. $5K - may be, as it may be neglected, but not 10 and not 15 grand, no way. Everything has its price and 'S' vs 'non-S' at the end is just a set of options one can get at any time. I also believe KW v3 or PSS10 are much better option than stock PASM shocks and so Brembos are way better brakes than 'S' stock. Then add stage 2 Sachs clutch kit and you are way above all 'S' stock components - only thing left is that .2 displacement advantage that in reality is somewhat around of 30 horses.

Summing it up roughly - exhaust cats+mufflers $2500 (power), ECU flash $950 (eliminates need for SC option) , plenum - $800 (power), Brembos - $4000 (red calipers), PSS10 - $4000 (no need for PASM), stage 2 clutch kit - $2000. Roughly same $15K total expense as in my case was price difference between C2 from private party and C2S with same options + PASM from a dealer.
With quite questionable item of Brembos, but, well, it can be swapped at any time if really needed for better braking on track.

I did not yet do last 3 items but still - point is that this list of mods makes stock C2 a beast of different class than stock C2s.

So question is - if you take stock C2s and do all those same mods to it for same $15K - what sense does it make as the only different option left will be that .2L bigger engine. Does that worth $15K? Keeping in mind - $15K is a price of a supercharger.

Plus any assumption that 3.6L engine is 'weak' compared to 3.8L is simply not true, so, I write all this stuff up just to illustrate for people who get under impression of 'S envy' - that in reality any 997.1 car is just a base on which you can build up pretty much all you want.

 

thanks, you raise some excellent points. i do have some questions, though. doesn't bilstein make shocks for pasm specific cars? wouldn't that be the best of both worlds?

anyways, i totally get it. the wider the spread grows for the S over the non-S, the more unattractive it becomes. basically, it's a supply/demand issue. the same reason why 993's are so dang expensive these days. the perception that the S is good and non-S is crap causes prices on the S to go higher.

i just saw an 05 C2 with 30,000 miles listed at $39.5K.. for that price, it's almost worth it. the savings can be put in the bank for future repairs...

i also get what ur saying about the mods you can do to bring up the spec of the C2... but in my experience, the "out of the box" version always seems to run better... i get 355bhp straight from factory, big brakes straight from factory, etc.

previously, i decided to get a JCW mini cooper, when i could have just bought a cooper s, and added exhaust, intake, ecu flash, upgraded turbo, buy bigger brakes, etc etc etc and saved a few bucks, but to me there is some intrinsic value to "damn, this thing is great right off the dealership floor". theoretically, you SHOULD be able to build a faster car with custom components... but historically, when I've modded cars, its just not the same solid feeling as driving a stock car... haha maybe it's who is actually doing the work (lookin in mirror)....

 

search for 'dumptronics'. they are not bad at all, but KW v3 or PSS10 give more adjustment and honestly, I think the simpler the better when it comes to shocks.

Core issue here is to know what is it you want and doing exactly that.

As of power etc - get your new car on a dyno and post here your results, and we`ll compare what is it you`ve got and what I have. I just know that that exact perception 'non-S is crap' that got cultivated here has nothing to do with objective reality. But to each his own.

 

Non-S is definitely not crap. But all things being equal, a non-S isn't as fast or as well equipped as an S (you also missed a few things off your list, such as bi-xenons and 19" wheels plus some minor cosmetic differences). The S, of course, isn't as fast or as well equipped as other models further up the model ladder. Whether or not these differences matter, and whether or not the price differential is one you're prepared to bridge, is an entirely personal decision.

As for your dyno comment, your car isn't stock. One can just as easily mod an S. It is nothing more than a matter of time and money. And then we're back to the same basic question - is the price difference or investment worth it for you?

 

Most C2 I saw have xenons, a lot of them (used) have 19" wheels already.

As of power - my car now measures 289 horses on mustang dyno, 335 in dynojet numbers according to usual 1.1593 multiplier, straight wheel power from a dyno. Was at 268 horses at stock.

Stock C2S usually measures 280-283 on mustang, so, I do not say you cannot pump it higher on a stock C2S using same set of mods, I just say from all other differences and options this one is the least important one.
Both C2 and C2s in stock have more power than average driver can handle and for a person who buys his first 911 car it is the most ridiculous reason to prefer one against another.

 

Is it? Just as there's a lot of pleasure to be had from modifying your car to the way that you want it, there's also a lot to be said for having the additional power with the peace of mind and freedom from warranty concerns that will inevitably arise should a modified car ever develop an issue.

At the end of the day, the S does outsell the non-S despite the base car being 10K or so cheaper - so the marketplace as a whole certainly places value on PASM, larger wheels, getting on for 10% extra power, more usable torque and the other things that you pay for on the S. Not everyone shares that view, and I absolutely agree that the non-S is a wonderfully capable car, but all things being equal you get what you choose to pay for.

The real question remains whether these price differences represent value or not - and that is an entirely personal (and largely subjective) decision.

 

Many have different opinions on these forums, and sometimes it's difficult to piece them all together to make a decision for yourself.

If you personally feel you want to have those extra built-in options from the factory, then definitely consider the S. I actually was willing to go for a Cayman S before I got my C4S. It's a great car and will probably make me just as happy. BUT...I woiuld have always gone back to ask myself "what if" and "maybe I should have just gotten a Carrera..."

So, if it's in your budget and your desire... Don't settle for less. Although, the less (non-S) is still a great car.

 

i'd absolutely go for a cayman S if i didnt need the rear space for baby seats (to come)...

 

car is pretty well equipped and does have SC...


its dark green so its OK...but swirls easy I think...but I prefer guard red or speed yellow.

Might try it out and replace boxster with one for wifey and a second car for the track...since ever one raves about it