very interesting read here. a few points of view IMHO:

• having a good/better/best strategy is pretty basic pricing and product marketing. look at other manufacturers, golf *****, whatever.
• the base carrera is an awesome car and can certainly get you in trouble
• the market dictates the value of the suspension, engine and brake upgrades - and about $10k is sustainable
• increasing the price of the base model pushes the entire 911 product line upmarket - which reduces the number of buyers at the entry point
• existing customers going upmarket is a critical component to the product lifecycle - having the S is a natural progression for buyers to move into a more expensive version for the next purchase
• with the exception of the engine, you can nearly option a base car to an "S" if you like - but once you look closely at that, you logically may want to purchase the "S"
• the turbo S follows this same formula as the Carrera / Carrera S packaging
• current discounting isn't relevant to this discussion - the supply / demand curve moved and so did inventory, which drove the unnatural pricing
• there's little upside in "simplifying" the choices here. there is an inverse trade off between flexibity and compexity in most engineering or marketing exercises - not to mention that in a low volume product market, having the customer evaluate all of the permutations increases purchase likelihood because of the time commitment invested

that said, 40% of carreras are base models (2009 saw approx 900 carreras and 1200 carrera S models sold). the mix of Carrera S Cabs is 2x the Carrera Cab volume. seems to me they've got a pretty good set of choices there

 

The psychology works the other way as well giving the S buyer the sense of being further along the pecking order, and of course the marketing people understand all these angles. What I find interesting is the pricing structure between the base and S models. If the base buyer were to add 19" wheels and PASM, not unreasonable options, it adds roughly 4K to the price. At that point why not pony up the additional 6K and get the rest of the S package? The standard Carrera makes the most sense when purchased w/o any options.

 

But it can also price it out out of the market and that's what a 15 to 20 percent discounts reveal. It is the conumers driving the price down OR letting the cars sit and collect dust on the lot .

In fact the numbers that you posted reflect lower sales than last year and more S cars sold over the base for both years.

Discount IS relevant . The cars last year didn;t sell until they were discounted and the same is going on this year. Now it's true that supply and demand drive the market but in BOTH years we see supply GROW when no one buys cars and months tick buy.

Tell that to the guys who just shelled out 160- 170K fir what they thought was the new Turbo . They haven't even changed the oil in their new car and voila .. there's a more equipped faster model. Do you think they are happy? I don't.

Based on what ? Speculation? How can you assign "likelihood" using absolutes?

 

yrralis1,

I've already replied on this thread as you know but I re-read the whole thing again and still don't quite understand your argument for eliminating the base model. Besides, even if Porsche did that then the "S" becomes the base model by default. As the old saying goes, you have to start somewhere.

Is this perhaps a round-a-bout way for you suggesting that Porsche should simply raise the price of getting into a 911 series? As far as pricing goes Porsche has never really made sense. Check it out, you have a Turbo, right? So I imagine your car stickered for between 140-150K. Let's call it 145K for this example. You'll recall that my car stickered for 84K. Do you really feel that a couple of impellers, a different wheel design and those giant intake ports behind your doors justify an additional $61,000? I sure don't.

With Porsche we are all paying for things like exclusivity, heritage, prestige (even though I personally don't like that particular attribute and in fact I'm actually kind of embarrassed by it ). Basically, we are all giving Porsche "good will" money based on these things.

Porsche has always charged what the market will bear and that's pretty typical for a German company offering high-end products. In my own line of work I deal with some high-end products made by German companies and when times get tough they actually raise prices (and yet they are now outsourcing manufacturing to China which totally baffles me but not to hi-jack this thread with my own troubles).

I'd also like to point out that Porsche has f*cked with the 911's trim levels over the years. For instance, at one point the Targa with it's lift-out roof panel was considered the entry level car and now it's been repositioned only a small step in price below the Turbo and has morphed into more of a luxury sports car with a giant glass roof that slides electrically.

I'm just glad that Porsche continues to offer choices in trim levels plus an overwhelming number of options within each. When I purchased my two Mazda RX-7's and my Miata I couldn't get exactly what I was looking for and always had to settle for either more or less than I wanted. One time I even had to settle on a color that I wasn't totally happy with just to get a car delivered in a reasonable period of time. That's probably why I ordered my Porsche . . . because I could.

 

I agree . I even think it makes itself evident on this thread.

There's the 997 group who likes having the savings .
There's the 997S group who likes rising above the savings to have the options .
Both provide a different form of self edification.

These are observations --

The 997 base can say -
I saved money.
I am not all about showing off.
Almost an S is still good enough for me.
Hey have 8 grand in my pocket and you don't.

The 997S group can say -
I am faster than the 997
I have bigger everything and more of it.
I opted not to feel bad by wanting more because i have it.
You have 8 grand but you still spent 90 . You almost made it to what I got but you didn't. I am glad for you but happier for me.

I guess its just different personalities .
I don't see the sense to any of this.
I think one car .. the BEST car .. is what Porsche or any car manufacturer ought to strive for.

 

I certainly agree - yes, the Carrera is a great car. One can configure a perfectly capable Carrera, embodying the current 911 paradigm at a price that is at least $10k cheaper than an S. For used cars, of course the diff is reduced.

Not quite. It's not only the engine that makes the S. Yes, you can get PASM on a Carrera but not the S brakes. The S is a very special car in a very good sweet spot - engine/suspension/brakes. This is even more so on the 997.2S. On the 997.1 generation one might prefer the more linear, more free-revving 3.6l of the Carrera. On the 997.2 both engines are equally free-revving and linear, with the 3.8l having more power and a wider and taller torque band. I drive these cars for pleasure, mostly on fast, twisty mountain roads, and I can tell you that the current S is simply awesome. For the boring straight-line freeway driving there's no real difference.

 

Ummm, it's 10 grand, not 8.

 

OK then so what you're saying it that Porsche should discontinue all 911's except for the GT2 and anyone who doesn't have an extra $192,000 lying around simply can't afford a 911. Yes, now that makes perfect sense - NOT!

 

Correct . Then I say lower the price -- a little above the base .. a little below the current 997S . I also say discount LESS .. and price the cars where the consumers have negotiated to create the best sales months .

In fact this is not new. The 993 had a 4S and a base but they both had the identical engine . So did the 996. Both cars sold well. The 993 still sells well.

A slight raise to some , but lower to some .... by just enough to firm the market . More importantly the one car would be Porsches best offering .

The Turbo market is a different market . It's even more reason not to offer an "S" after a refresh . Most owners think long and hard before dropping 150K . My car is over 200K with all the mods . My goal was to have the best Turbo of 2007 for me. I found it .. I created it.. I have never second guessed it . I even welcome the new car BUT I woild have bought a Turbo S if i was shopping new Turbos.

Is it worth it? Yes. Not financially speaking .. but in terms of the happiness and memories with the car .. I can't place a pricetag on it .. all i could do is buy the best I could find and cope with the expense as part of the price of the toy.

There was some rule about convertibles and if I recall the Targa may have had a rollcage but this current economy , the competition . the number of models, the price ... place these new 911 cars in a different time period.

Right now there's 14 911 cars . The Turbo S wil be next and maybe a 997.2 Gt2 ?
The consumer pays for all of this . Look at the old 911 cars .. the ones that you may have loved in childhood . They didn;t have technology gadgets and they had model selection but not like this . Not where two cars are this close at these price levels.

 

This is false. the brakes are not the same and can not be added to the stock 997.
One alsi can not add the extra Hp found in the S.

They are not the same car and can not be ordered to make them identical .
That's one of the big snags . In fact there are those who buy the base who come to that realization after the novelty erodes . At 90K that's a very expensive piece of buyers remorse.

 

point taken. i was generalizing. i did love and made excellent use of the big reds on my old S.

 

I am a fan of the base model. I paid 75K for my car, ordered exactly how I want it. I don't have the driving expertise to notice the difference between and s/non-s and the few options I did wan't don't come on the S anyways. To me it wasn't worth the 10k.

 

my apologies if you interpreted my comments as dealing with using absolutes. i just don't happen to agree with the thesis that you're presenting. however, i know that you can assign likelihood quantitatively, it's pretty easy. you just need the numbers and there are many comparisons.

 

I am not saying this. The Gt2 and Gt3 models are track cars . I still haven;t quite figured out the purpose of the Gt2 but that coild be a different thread.

I am saying that if what now is the
C2
C2s
C4s
C4
Plus all the cabs
Plus the Targa

If they all had ONE engine --it elimnates
the C2
the C4
Coupes and cabs both
That streamlines this model by four cars.

That is what they had with the 993 and 996.

Then price it according to where the market has driven it. It woild be lower than the current S but higher than the base -only slightly.

 

like your idea, i think should be a base and you can add options as you please (3.8 as option, red brakes, etc...

BUT

most people like to buy the "S" for the bragging rights.... im sorry but my friend has an S because he wanted it to say S on the back, drove my non S and was upset because it felt the same and he paid 10k more because he was told the "S" killed the standard and you gotta buy the S...

they build it because people buy it, 40hp.. or 30hp on the turboS makes almost no difference imo... u could barely mod the car and get that Hp easily.. but people wanna see the "S" because then they are better than the next door neighbor's base.

one main reason i chose the base over S is the volcano grey trim, i cant stand the "chromey" S trim.