FWIW, I think you're making a lot of sense, and commenting on what many others have observed. These cars are 'different'. It's part of their charm, their uniqueness, and contributes to their competency.
I notice that your observations are not cited as criticisms (though maybe you think so). As I've mentioned before, having a light front end rekindles memories of racing sprint karts years ago. Every once in a while, I would shift my concentration and found it remarkable how much air there was under the inside front tire during hard cornering.
So it's an acquired taste, and to go fast, an acquired skill. As to shutting off PSM, that's your call. Though I'd really like to, I don't have the faith in my competency to risk an expensive piece of machinery like that. With more open space though, I'd gladly do it. OTOH these days, I'm not sure that disabling PSM-like systems tells you more about the car or not. Whereas in years past electronics were focused as a safety-net, they are now part of the systems design of the car. Nothing wrong with experimenting, but it's a bit like experimenting by shutting off the rear brakes. Not sure what it teaches you.
Anyway, the 911 is a great car. And it is a supercar - but the only one you can drive daily. Whether a rear-engine design can really run with the top-shelf supercars is an unspoken sentiment by the loyalists. C&D's latest review of a breadth of high performance cars showed that the Cayman is as fast around a track as the 911. I truly believe that the Cayman is fundamentally a better car than the 911, but I favor the 911 nonetheless. However, if they cleaned up the looks and added more power on the mid-engine design I would line up.

 

Don't mean to beat this point to a pulp but here is a link to a Motor Trend test of a 2009 C2S cabriolet w/PDK. BTW, the cabrio is a bit heavier than the coupe. Porsche states a 0-60 time of 4.1 but they are always conservative. This is the impressiveness of PDK.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...pdk/index.html

 

But the Turbo is "king of the street" and it's also priced (used) lower than a 997.2S . In fact you won't even race it once you own it --too dangerous.
Besides .. most won't even attempt to race you . They know they'd lose.

 

Since Brian asked, though I suppose he's left by now, here are the Car and Driver results on my 2009 997.2:

Specifications


VEHICLE TYPE: rear-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 2+2-passenger, 2-door coupe

PRICE AS TESTED: $101,000 (base price: $87,795)

ENGINE TYPE: DOHC 24-valve flat-6, aluminum block and heads, direct fuel injection
Displacement: 232 cu in, 3800cc
Power (SAE net): 385 bhp @ 6500 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 310 lb-ft @ 4100 rpm

TRANSMISSION: 6-speed manual

DIMENSIONS:
Wheelbase: 92.5 in Length: 174.6 in Width: 71.2 in Height: 51.2 in Curb weight: 3279 lb

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 3.9 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 9.4 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 16.7 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 5.0 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 12.4 sec @ 114 mph
Top speed (redline limited): 187 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 155 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.97 g
FUEL ECONOMY:
EPA city/highway driving: 18/25 mpg
C/D observed: 17 mpg

I didn't bother to look it up, but the PDK is roughly 400 milliseconds faster at the one-two shift and another 400 at the two-three shift, so ADias's car (like mine but with PDK) would turn 3.5 seconds 0-60 under those test conditions and nine flat to a hundred. I don't think he abuses his car that way any more than I do, but it is interesting to see what somebody can achieve who isn't worried about the life of the drive train. For those interested in a good shudder, here is the Car and Driver procedure for a Porsche: http://tinyurl.com/PorscheTest

And Brian won't care, but just among ourselves, here are their comments on the latest GT3:
I definitely agree with the comment about trying to slide any cars this good on a public road, but I'm just a used up race car driver in my hobby life. A wimp at heart I'm sure. Here's the spec's on that GT3 drive:


VEHICLE TYPE: rear-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 2-passenger, 2-door coupe

BASE PRICE: $113,150

ENGINE TYPE: DOHC 24-valve flat-6, aluminum block and heads, port fuel injection
Displacement: 232 cu in, 3797cc
Power (SAE net): 435 bhp @ 7600 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 317 lb-ft @ 6250 rpm

TRANSMISSION: 6-speed manual

DIMENSIONS:
Wheelbase: 92.7 in Length: 176.4 in Width: 71.2 in Height: 50.4 in
Curb weight (C/D est): 3250 lb

PERFORMANCE (C/D EST)
Zero to 60 mph: 3.7 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 11.8 sec @ 120 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 193 mph
FUEL ECONOMY (MFR’S EST):
EPA city/highway driving: 15/22 mpg

This one was also a six-speed, so if they adapt the PDK to those torque levels, the dragstrip fanatics can expect a quarter mile time around eleven flat.

Gary

 

Just for kicks, I looked this up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WAeB...eature=channel

Derek Bell driving the GT2. I certainly wouldn't dispute the title with that car.

Gary

 

This is a great video. I suggest it should be set in a sticky post as required viewing for new forum visitors. Newcomers to sports cars forums always compare sports cars to cushy sports sedans and complain about harshness comfort and stuff. These are not comparable as they are different animals.

AMG and M-series BMWs are excellent sports sedans and do what they do very well. They have great power and driving dynamics while carrying 4/5 people. A 911 is different - it is a smaller nimbler car with fantastic driving dynamics. It's not cushy and it is harder dealing with high frequency ripples on the road. And it has to be like that to control mass transfer and maintain maximum road-holding. And incidentally a 997 is far cushier than the 996 was and even more so than older cars such as the 993 and 964. Those could be punishing on broken surfaces and expansion joints. The 997 especially with PASM is a soft ride in comparison.

But even when people understand those issues it still takes true sports car experience to understand the driving dynamics of an all-in-the-rear architecture like the 911. Not everyone appreciates the car in its true core. Floor the throttle, 1/4 mile types never get it. This car is all about smooth driving and seat-of-the-pants feeling and control. Many never get it. They are attracted to the 911 for its image and cachet but drive it like a muscle car and never get it.

Call me snob, but that's far from what I am about this subject and I care zero for image and status, but yes I have an opinion and I express it because I have lived arround Porsches longer than most on these forums. So, agree with me or not, it does not matter.

 

The gt2 and 997tt get very little love from quite a few of the normally aspirated fans but the truth is they are amazing cars. Some debates just seem endless (ie manual vs PDK , 997tt vs gtr, turbo vs na , etc.... ) but i suppose its what's part of the fun of owning these cars ---discussing them.

If I had to sell one of my two cars it would be my 997S . Hands down !!!! I am not selling my 997S though.
If I had no cars and had to buy one .. I would buy a Turbo. I'm not sure if I would buy a new one only because a redesign is so close .

If this guy is debating AMG Benz .. all that points even more to a Turbo.

 

Sounds like a good idea to me. It would save me having to look it up again everytime someone asks the questions Brian just did.

Well, I've never owned one before, as most of you know, but I've had a long life as a car enthusiast and a great many years of watching Porsches disappear into the distance. I can vouch for the impression they leave from behind. I think I know the ***-end of every 911 Porsche ever built.

In case I haven't mentioned it, this C2S we bought is imminently satisfactory to us as sports car people. I've driven the best sport cars in the past and muscle cars as well, but this one continues to please me. Everytime I ask more of it, it delivers. I had an opportunity this weekend to try a deserted back-country mountain road without Cindy along. (I have to drive in limo mode with Cindy because she has had a severe stroke that causes vertigo and other problems leading to rapid motion sickness. This to a woman whose delight in retirement was the second gen NSX I bought her to celebrate. Almost as sad as her loss of the ability to hear music in her head. But she still loves to ride in a fine sports car, even if she can't drive or tolerate side loads.)

With due concern for actually coming home in the car I left with, rather than a tow truck, I finally had a chance to stretch this Carrera S. Just a little, you understand. My opinion of taking a car this significant to the limit on public roads remains as I've stated it in the past: No corner workers, no fast corners. Of course, my view of 'fast' differs from many. Let's say I never went more than double the posted warning speeds. Well, not much more.

The entire experience would have been love at first drive if I hadn't already learned to admire these cars decades ago. Every corner was exhilarating but completely without surprises. The straights grew naturally from the turn exits, and the turn entries and transitions from braking were silky. Damn, this is a fine road car. Paris to Monaco in less than eight hours in the old days before speed cameras.

Wish I were healthy enough these days to explore its limits in track work. Maybe just one DE day... or a quick autocross?

Gary

 

Larry: turbos are great Porsches, just not what I enjoy. I know you do and it is great.

 

I feel that if he's looking at AMG cars the Turbo has some of that straight line power , overall comfort --yet has quite a bit more agility in the turns than those cars.

 

I agree. But I say more. The turbo will provide a heavier less communicative front-end (but far more than a C63 provides) the same or higher sledgehammer power, still being nimbler and far more dynamic. But for some people it still does not give them the front-engine big car feel they are used to.

Having said that I actually like the C63 and consider it the best Benz sports sedan. For my taste though a Panamera is a far better driver's car.